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  1. #26
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    I suddenly have to wonder which is worse -- "parochial", or "condescending".....

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    The lesson to be learned from this is that it is very necessary to avoid parochialism, particularly, for Americans, to avoid attempting to adopt Dutch parochial views about cycling in the expectation that such adoption will turn America into a Dutch-style paradise.


    The "Dutch style paradise" works very well for them. We are not even close to having anything that works on such a large scale.
    Like it or not, it is a standard that the rest of the world commonly use to show effective cycling. Would it work here? Who Knows? It all pointless conjecture. This board is an example--the microcosm of the macrocosm--of why America will never catch up relative to the rest of the world. Our supposed 'advocate's' cant agree on anything, and their hyper-combativeness is a turn-off to the more rational and free-thinking silent majority and bike haters, alike. Its laughable to think the arrogant american advocate is going to learn a lesson or be swayed by anyone other than themselves. So, not to worry, Im sure USA's version of criticizing, being divisive and close-minded as advocacy will remain in tact for a long time . . .
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  3. #28
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    Since sharrows are nothing more than a mark indicating that the lane in question is too narrow to share, they make no functional difference to the cyclist. Do you like them because you think they might encourage better behavior from motorists?
    Maybe but I generally have no problems when taking unmarked lanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    SDo you think they encourage some cyclists to get out of the gutter?
    Yes, but it's only a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    . . . they seem a bit like the signs at some intersections reminding motorists to yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk. Aren't people supposed to know these sort of things before they get a license?
    A bit of reminder may be helpful, much like sharrow paint.
    George
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  4. #29
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    Cycling is not taken seriously -- it is something children do or those who have not grown up and its mainly seen as a leisure activity.
    I guess he has not heard of the infamous NY bike mafia. I would also like to see him try to convince the people who write angry comments at our yellow rag's web site that cycling in PDX is not taken seriously.

    People cycle on specific tracks and not to get from A to B
    This may be true in Topeka or Dallas, but not in most of the cities I have lived.

    Others take their bikes on their car.
    Quelle Horreur!

    They are trying to outrun other traffic.
    Apparently taking the lane at ~10-15 mph while riding a hybrid or a bike with panniers is "trying to outrun other traffic.

    It really seems like a chase
    Images of commuters "speed racing" at 10-15 mph.

    Less racing and more cycling from A to B
    Again more frightening images of cyclists "speed racing" at 10-15 mph.

    ...for everyday pruposes and not as a sport.
    I guess in Holland racers ride hybrids and bikes with panniers.

    Even in Davis I hardly saw any cycling infra...and that's probably why some people choose to ride in lycra and helmets.
    He depicts one cyclist who looks like a club rider. And I'm trying to understand what Davis' supposed lack of infrastructure has to do with the decision to wear lycra. Do world-class Dutch style cycle paths somehow make one impervious to sweating on training rides? I also would love to know how he managed to depict ~8 roads in Davis without showing any bike infrastructure.

    It almost looks like these people are riding a race rather than going home after work.
    He pans to a group of cyclist cycling at ~5-10 mph on hybrids and bikes with panniers.

    Chicago goes a step further with a line of cars protecting a bike lane...
    And his video of a Chicago cycle track shows two lycra clad road cyclists going 15+.

    It may change the type of cycling from this more racy variety...
    Pans to cyclist going ~15 mph commuting on fendered hybrid.

    Seeing more upright cyclists in ordinary clothes would be positive. There could be a good future for cycling in the US.
    Yikes!
    I did not realize that I was promoting a bad future for cycling in the USA! I guess I will have to get rid of my sporty clothing and carbon fiber bikes and buy some tight jeans and an opafiets.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-29-13 at 08:30 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Like it or not, it is a standard that the rest of the world commonly use to show effective cycling
    not that you are picking sides.

    and their hyper-combativeness is a turn-off to the more rational and free-thinking silent majority
    the silent majority is watching american idol.

    and bike haters, alike.
    arguments between bike advocates turn off the bike haters?

    Its laughable to think the arrogant american advocate is going to learn a lesson or be swayed by anyone other than themselves.
    i also believe that people who do not agree with me are arrogant, divisive, close-minded, hyper-combatitive and wrong too!
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    not that you are picking sides.


    the silent majority is watching american idol.


    arguments between bike advocates turn off the bike haters?


    i also believe that people who do not agree with me are arrogant, divisive, close-minded, hyper-combatitive and wrong too!

    Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  7. #32
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    I'm far from a "Bike Lane Everywhere", and far from "Always ride like a car" cyclist; but I think this Dutch perspective fails to take into account the realities of the US.

    Bike infra here IS the roadway. Everything else is just a type of lane segregation. We don't have HOV lanes up and down the interstates, because they're not needed.

    Bike specific infra is only needed in some areas, not everywhere. My entire commute would is fine without bike lanes; segregated by paint or otherwise (Now, some road repair is needed). Other areas of the city here would do well with some types of lanes.

    I mean, I cannot fathom how people do bike touring, without all that bike specific infra is possible; according to this guy in the video.

  8. #33
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    A little bit of comparing apples & oranges in this video. Obviously the roadies in full kit out riding for fitness, race practice, or endurance stand out when compared to the others riders who were wearing anything from gym clothes to dress wear while out commuting. I'm sure there's plenty of roadies in Europe too that, for some reason, he hasn't noticed them before.

  9. #34
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    The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolerb View Post
    The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
    Ditto. It looks to me it's a genuine well meant wish. Where did the hatred feeling come from? Some folks seem to be constantly on the edge.

    Regrettably, some nice things that help improve the quality of life may just be hard to come true in the U.S. of A., for whatever reason (probably partly due to the existence of such people like Rabinowitz)--e.g. the universal health-care systems adopted in some European countries.
    Last edited by vol; 06-29-13 at 11:11 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolerb View Post
    The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
    I get that. I think the video maker mistakes what is relaxing in the US, for "racing". Yes, some people get kitted up for their commute. How does that mean it's not relaxing?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view
    I think that 8's comment expresses considerable misunderstanding about the US situation. 8 thinks that politicians and city planners are bike haters who are holding back progress in the direction that 8 desires. I don't know what 8 desires, because he hasn't said. So I am going to assume, for purposes of discussion, that 8 desires movement in the Dutch direction. Whatever one may say about the Dutch policy, in America this turns out to be advocacy of traffic-incompetent cycling on bikeways, action which is called, by its advocates, to be "pro-bike". Of course, this is anti-cyclist. So in this discussion I use "pro-bike" and "anti-bike", quote marks indicative of ironic falsity, to indicate what I think are the traditional American views, such as I assume 8 has. In today's political climate, it is a rare American politician who expresses "anti-bike" views, and in fact the government pays politicians (indirectly) to take "pro-bike" action. In today's urban planning profession, it is a very rare planner who dares to express "anti-bike" views, and most official city planning work is dedicated to advocating features that include "pro-bike" actions.

    American views differ from Dutch views in several critical ways. America has long had mass motoring since the dawn of the automotive age, so that American cities and their patterns of living, working, commerce, social connections, etc., have grown up to suit motoring transport. Motoring works so well that the market shares of mass transit and bicycle transport are much smaller than in Holland. Not only that, but American policy regarding bicycle traffic is guided by what motorists want, to have bikes pushed aside for the convenience of motorists.

    American views differ from Dutch views with respect to their cycling populations: America has a significant population of cyclists who obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. These vehicular cyclists recognize that the American policy of traffic-incompetent cycling on bikeways was created by motorists for the convenience of motorists. These cyclists recognize that doing what the motorists want reduces cyclists' safety and convenience, that American "cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles." The vehicular cycling view has plenty of scientific support, while the view favoring incompetent cycling on bikeways has practically none. And, frankly, vehicular cyclists don't see much difference between American bikeways and Dutch bikeways in that respect.

    America has two reasons for its situation. First, motoring works so well for so many that there is not much market for either mass transit or bicycle transport. Second, since the major American transportation system is operation on roadways, American cyclists need to operate on roadways and, when doing so, operate by the same rules of the road as other drivers. Exasperation at this system, shown by many more than by only "8", comes partly from militant motorists because bicycles are still on the roads, but more loudly so from those who fail to realize that their anti-motoring "pro-bike" program is not suited to American history and conditions.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolerb View Post
    The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
    I have no problem with someone calling for cycling to be safer. Although it is a bit curious that the videographer fixates solely on "infra", instead of also commenting on traffic speed, motorist education, and lack of traffic calming/elimination.

    Relaxation is subjective. I find a long "training" ride to be a great form of relaxation. Moreover, the use of "relaxed" (e.g. upright, normal clothing, slow pace) is often a code word for cycling judgement.

    If it was, more people would probably do it.
    I disagree completely. Alternative transport mode share is high in northern europe because gas is $7-8 a gallon, vehicle excise taxes are punitive, parking has been systematically eliminated, traffic calmed, and new road construction curtailed.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    Ditto. It looks to me it's a genuine well meant wish. Where did the hatred feeling come from? Some folks seem to be constantly on the edge.
    Maybe the fact that the videographer showed images of everyday commuters while talking about racing, chasing, lycra, helmets, and racing. I am also still waiting for someone to explain why lycra and panniered hybrids are harmful to cycling in the usa...


    Regrettably, some nice things that help improve the quality of life may just be hard to come true in the U.S. of A., for whatever reason (probably partly due to the existence of such people like Rabinowitz)--e.g. the universal health-care systems adopted in some European countries.
    Why is it that you are changing the subject to Rabinowitz and "universal health-care" and not defending the substance of this video?

    PS: Obamacare *is* a Swiss-style universal health-care system.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  15. #40
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vol View Post
    Ditto. It looks to me it's a genuine well meant wish. Where did the hatred feeling come from? Some folks seem to be constantly on the edge.
    See Post#2 http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15794594

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view
    What do you expect when you have so many bike lane advocates refuse to oppose even the worst DZBLs. I have asked a certain BF member many times what bike lane design he would oppose and have never gotten an answer. Thats is because some feel the need to be wanted and will accept those dangerous bike lanes to feel loved.

    The other side has said that they would not oppose bike lanes that are 5 - 6 feet wide, out of the door zone, end 100 - 200 feet before intersections, do not have mandatory use laws and are preferably on uphills where cyclist are slowed.

    How do you expect me to support a bike lane advocate that is not willing to first end the mandatory use law?

    The bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners do love these bike lane advocates. Would you like to see the pictures again of the bike lanes these advocates have managed to get painted in this mandatory use state?
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    I think that 8's comment expresses considerable misunderstanding about the US situation. 8 thinks that politicians and city planners are bike haters who are holding back progress in the direction that 8 desires.
    I Should have stopped reading after the above, but mucked onward through this palaverous cesspool out of morbid curiosity. Ridiculous, as to be expected, and not really worth commenting on other than to ask you to point to any of my posts that would lead you say something like anything like this: "Exasperation at this system, shown by many more than by only "8",
    I do thank you for helping quantify my opinion about the laughable state of bike advocacy in the USA, currently.
    You make my point better than I could with stuff like this


    Waiting . . .
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    I Should have stopped reading after the above, but mucked onward through this palaverous cesspool out of morbid curiosity. Ridiculous, as to be expected, and not really worth commenting on other than to ask you to point to any of my posts that would lead you say something like anything like this: "Exasperation at this system, shown by many more than by only "8",
    I do thank you for helping quantify my opinion about the laughable state of bike advocacy in the USA, currently.
    You make my point better than I could with stuff like this


    Waiting . . .
    The following two paragraphs demonstrate that "8" feels exasperated at the present American system for organizing bicycle traffic. He thinks that the American system is not progressing as fast as he desires toward his ideal of a Dutch system. His own words demonstrate what he claims to be untrue.


    "The "Dutch style paradise" works very well for them. We are not even close to having anything that works on such a large scale.
    Like it or not, it is a standard that the rest of the world commonly use to show effective cycling. Would it work here? Who Knows? It all pointless conjecture. This board is an example--the microcosm of the macrocosm--of why America will never catch up relative to the rest of the world. Our supposed 'advocate's' cant agree on anything, and their hyper-combativeness is a turn-off to the more rational and free-thinking silent majority and bike haters, alike. Its laughable to think the arrogant american advocate is going to learn a lesson or be swayed by anyone other than themselves. So, not to worry, Im sure USA's version of criticizing, being divisive and close-minded as advocacy will remain in tact for a long time . . ."

    "Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view "

    Rather than describing my post as muck, palaverous cesspool, etc., it would be reasonable to expect that a reasoned response be created instead of plain nastiness. I have to presume that you do not have a reasonable response available.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    I Should have stopped reading after the above, but mucked onward through this palaverous cesspool out of morbid curiosity.
    Note which side of the argument started slinging mud first.

    Going to go ride my bike up some hills...to relax.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    The following two paragraphs demonstrate that "8" feels exasperated at the present American system for organizing bicycle traffic. He thinks that the American system is not progressing as fast as he desires toward his ideal of a Dutch system. His own words demonstrate what he claims to be untrue.
    My critique of your post stands until you can provide me with a quote by me that says I am "exasperated" and my ideal system is the dutch system and I am frustrated with our current system. For the record, I have no problems in my day to day affairs on the bicycle. My posts are frustration with advocacy and individuals who profess to be our advocators. This boorish tete a tete is a perfect example. Time spent on this stuff is time I will never get back, Im done with this nonsense. But, I might ask that in the future, if you feel a need to comment on my posts, comment on what I actually wrote, not what you think I did.
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Note which side of the argument started slinging mud first.

    Going to go ride my bike up some hills...to relax.
    "I think that 8's comment expresses considerable misunderstanding about the US situation"
    Cant get too much muddier than this . . .
    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

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    Wow, tough crowd. It is what it is folks. Just another perspective. Not one that claims that the Dutch way is the be all end all.

    Hope y'all had a nice weekend. I got some much needed miles in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -=(8)=- View Post
    My critique of your post stands until you can provide me with a quote by me that says I am "exasperated" and my ideal system is the dutch system and I am frustrated with our current system. For the record, I have no problems in my day to day affairs on the bicycle. My posts are frustration with advocacy and individuals who profess to be our advocators. This boorish tete a tete is a perfect example. Time spent on this stuff is time I will never get back, Im done with this nonsense. But, I might ask that in the future, if you feel a need to comment on my posts, comment on what I actually wrote, not what you think I did.
    "8" had taken the trouble to post complaints while refusing to describe the troubles that he was complaining about. So I had to make an explicit assumption, which "8" now says is incorrect. That's fine, but he still has not told us his viewpoint. But he has added the information that he is "frustrat[ed] with advocacy and individuals who profess to be our advocators." There are many kinds of advocacy; just what is this advocacy that so frustrates "8"? He hasn't written, so we don't know. In fact all that we know is that "8" complains of something, which really conveys no real information.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Ever heard of Lulemon or REI?
    Sporty wear is not "specialized clothing", it is a common USAnian fashion. And I for one prefer the diversity of fashion in the USA to the conformism of northern europe.



    Since 40% of dutch people are now overweight, it seems to me that adopting a bit of USAnian style exercise cycling might be a positive thing.

    By all means, and since 70% of USAnians are overweight I'm sure we can teach those Dutch a lot about how to don sporty clothes and still get fatter. 12% obesity rate in the Netherlands compared to 36% obesity rate in the US. Yeah, we could teach them a thing or two about how to pack on the pounds as we tell every one else in the world how to get fit.
    Last edited by buzzman; 07-02-13 at 09:15 AM.

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    Wow, doesn't take much to get the A&S squad agitated.

    If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride. What's so hard to understand about that? Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.

    I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation and not a weekend activity in the park, biking in the U.S. will continue to be (at least perceived as) a dangerous activity.

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