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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    Wow, doesn't take much to get the A&S squad agitated.

    If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride. What's so hard to understand about that? Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.

    I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation and not a weekend activity in the park, biking in the U.S. will continue to be (at least perceived as) a dangerous activity.
    The problem is blaming lycra for people not seeing cycling as transportation is misguided at best. One of the root causes is that until quite recently, only the combustion engine was seen fit for transportation in the US, and public policy supported that concept.

    Until we adjust public policy to change that, doesn't matter how cycle chic we get here in the US. The car will still be dominant.

    One thing the video completely skips out on as a reason for high cycling mode share in euro nations, is the fact that fuel is not subsidized at the same rate it is here. Gasoline is about $7/liter in the Eurozone. Gasoline is $3.80/gallon here in the US. The price differential is due to subsidies for fuel, making it cheaper to drive in the US than in the Eurozone. By a magnitude of 5 (If my off-the-cuff math is correct).

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    The problem is blaming lycra for people not seeing cycling as transportation is misguided at best. One of the root causes is that until quite recently, only the combustion engine was seen fit for transportation in the US, and public policy supported that concept.

    Until we adjust public policy to change that, doesn't matter how cycle chic we get here in the US. The car will still be dominant.

    One thing the video completely skips out on as a reason for high cycling mode share in euro nations, is the fact that fuel is not subsidized at the same rate it is here. Gasoline is about $7/liter in the Eurozone. Gasoline is $3.80/gallon here in the US. The price differential is due to subsidies for fuel, making it cheaper to drive in the US than in the Eurozone. By a magnitude of 5 (If my off-the-cuff math is correct).
    So uh, either we need to stop subsidizing gasoline here in the US or should apply equal subsidization to other forms of transportation.

    Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So uh, either we need to stop subsidizing gasoline here in the US or should apply equal subsidization to other forms of transportation.
    Exactly!

    Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.
    That would be great. Some cities, and states, are working on getting there. I know my city has mandated mutli-modal design concepts applied during any road construction/improvement project.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So uh, either we need to stop subsidizing gasoline here in the US or should apply equal subsidization to other forms of transportation.

    Frankly I'd love to see the bicycle equivalent of the 1956 Highway act which kicked off the building of the interstate freeway system. Could you imagine if there was a mandate to make bike infrastructure fully connected in cities, to provide a system of high speed bikeways within cities.

    In the early 1970's, when I was active in reconstituting a bicycling club that had been dormant for about 50 years (the Narragansett Bay Wheelmen) one of the members uncovered a document that highlighted a provision in the Highway Act that earmarked a very minuscule percentage of the gasoline tax for bicycle paths. This was a move made by Eisenhower out of respect for his cardiologist Dr. Paul Dudley White, a strong advocate of bicycling, who warned that the interstate highway system would lead to obesity and heart disease due to an over dependence on the automobile. We shared the information with LAW (now LAB) with the hope that this unused portion had now accumulated to something substantial that could be used for more infrastructure. I believe LAB attempted to lobby for its use but I think it got mired in politics.

    Over the years I've been curious about this provision. If anyone has any info I'd love to see if it was true that such a provision existed. I'll google later and see if I get anything.

  5. #55
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post


    Apparently taking the lane at ~10-15 mph while riding a hybrid or a bike with panniers is "trying to outrun other traffic.


    Images of commuters "speed racing" at 10-15 mph.


    Again more frightening images of cyclists "speed racing" at 10-15 mph.


    I guess in Holland racers ride hybrids and bikes with panniers.


    He pans to a group of cyclist cycling at ~5-10 mph on hybrids and bikes with panniers.


    And his video of a Chicago cycle track shows two lycra clad road cyclists going 15+.


    Pans to cyclist going ~15 mph commuting on fendered hybrid.


    Yikes!
    I did not realize that I was promoting a bad future for cycling in the USA! I guess I will have to get rid of my sporty clothing and carbon fiber bikes and buy some tight jeans and an opafiets.
    Exactly.
    What I don't understand is why the video maker is promoting riding a bike that's heavy and slow and panning a bike that's light and easier to push? I have to ride far enough to get to work, why should I make it harder than it already is? Maybe that's it in a nutshell. If you only have to go a few blocks, and have all the time there is to get there, it sure seems nice to mosey your way down the bike path to work. It's just not like that here.
    Lightning P-38 / M5 M-Racer/Ryan Vanguard

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberGeek View Post
    Gasoline is about $7/liter in the Eurozone. Gasoline is $3.80/gallon here in the US. The price differential is due to subsidies for fuel, making it cheaper to drive in the US than in the Eurozone. By a magnitude of 5 (If my off-the-cuff math is correct).
    It's high, but not $7/liter. More like $7/gallon, though higher in places. (Denmark has ~11DKK/liter = ~$2/liter = ~ $8/gallon)

  7. #57
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    In the early 1970's, when I was active in reconstituting a bicycling club that had been dormant for about 50 years (the Narragansett Bay Wheelmen) one of the members uncovered a document that highlighted a provision in the Highway Act that earmarked a very minuscule percentage of the gasoline tax for bicycle paths. This was a move made by Eisenhower out of respect for his cardiologist Dr. Paul Dudley White, a strong advocate of bicycling, who warned that the interstate highway system would lead to obesity and heart disease due to an over dependence on the automobile. We shared the information with LAW (now LAB) with the hope that this unused portion had now accumulated to something substantial that could be used for more infrastructure. I believe LAB attempted to lobby for its use but I think it got mired in politics.

    Over the years I've been curious about this provision. If anyone has any info I'd love to see if it was true that such a provision existed. I'll google later and see if I get anything.
    Hmmmmm seems the good Doctor had excellent foresight... now if only those funds were indeed available, before we finish morphing into the people of Wall-E.



    Opps....


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaleur View Post
    It's high, but not $7/liter. More like $7/gallon, though higher in places. (Denmark has ~11DKK/liter = ~$2/liter = ~ $8/gallon)
    Thanks for the correction

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride.
    What are "regular" clothes and "normal" bikes? Also, link please.

    Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.
    I do at least a few times a week. You gotta problem with that?

    I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation
    So which kind of bike is ideal for transportation in the USA? A 50 lb oma/opafiets or a ~25 lb hybrid/cross/tourer?

    and not a weekend activity in the park
    The average bike trip distance in Holland is a bit over 1 mile. Somehow I don't think most of these trips are "commutes".
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  10. #60
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    What are "regular" clothes and "normal" bikes? Also, link please.
    Well, going to work I ride a 'bent in chinos/dress slacks and a collared dress shirt if that helps

    So which kind of bike is ideal for transportation in the USA?
    A fast, comfortable one.

    The average bike trip distance in Holland is a bit over 1 mile. Somehow I don't think most of these trips are "commutes".
    Even if they are, what does that have to do with here? A short commute in the States is what, 5 miles one way?
    Lightning P-38 / M5 M-Racer/Ryan Vanguard

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    What are "regular" clothes and "normal" bikes? Also, link please.



    I do at least a few times a week. You gotta problem with that?



    So which kind of bike is ideal for transportation in the USA? A 50 lb oma/opafiets or a ~25 lb hybrid/cross/tourer?



    The average bike trip distance in Holland is a bit over 1 mile. Somehow I don't think most of these trips are "commutes".
    I find that lots of people I meet are reluctant to ride for two reasons:
    1. Traffic
    2. Needing to get special equipment

    You really put on a roadie outfit to go to the market? That's just...odd.

    Which kind of bike is best? One that is reliable, affordable, and practical for commuting and errands. In other words, not a carbon road bike. Sure, you'll always have the Porsche 911s on the road, but most people choose a sedan, hatchback, or SUV for their everyday driving. This probably translates to urban and hybrid bikes.

    Distance has nothing to do with it. It's the perception that cycling is something that you do in a park or on a trail for fun instead of as a valid alternative to the automobile. Change that perception and you go a long way to gaining more widespread acceptance of cyclists on the roads.

  12. #62
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    I find that lots of people I meet are reluctant to ride for two reasons:
    1. Traffic
    2. Needing to get special equipment
    Traffic is the big one. I don't think you really need much in the way of special equipment.

    You really put on a roadie outfit to go to the market? That's just...odd.
    I don't see many people doing this either.

    Which kind of bike is best? One that is reliable, affordable, and practical for commuting and errands. In other words, not a carbon road bike. Sure, you'll always have the Porsche 911s on the road, but most people choose a sedan, hatchback, or SUV for their everyday driving. This probably translates to urban and hybrid bikes.
    I see some of those but mostly steel drop bar road bikes with a rack. Again you don't need much in the way of special equipment- certainly not a new /different bike.

    Distance has nothing to do with it. It's the perception that cycling is something that you do in a park or on a trail for fun instead of as a valid alternative to the automobile. Change that perception and you go a long way to gaining more widespread acceptance of cyclists on the roads.
    Distance has something to do with it, at least with what platform you choose, but platform has a lot to do with whether you consider a bike transportation or a toy. Here a cruiser bike is a toy, over there it's transportation. Just the opposite here.
    Lightning P-38 / M5 M-Racer/Ryan Vanguard

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    You really put on a roadie outfit to go to the market? That's just...odd.
    Many of us do our shopping at the end of our daily commute. So what is odd about that?

    One store I do much of my shopping at is 8 miles from home, so if I do the shopping on a non-workday, you bet I put bike shorts on for the 16 mile ride. About half the time, I even use the CF bike. No way I am using a hybrid bike.

    Do you believe touring cyclist should have to change clothes to get a few groceries?
    Last edited by CB HI; 07-02-13 at 07:00 PM.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
    Again you don't need much in the way of special equipment- certainly not a new /different bike.
    I'm car-free, and my only bike is a rigid 29er MTB. Had I known when I bought it that I would use it as my primary transportation, I would have purchased something much different, much better suited; I would have purchased a Dutch city bike. One can commute with any bike. I could get everywhere I need to go on a BMX bike if I needed to. However, some bikes are much better suited to the task than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    One store I do much of my shopping at is 8 miles from home, so if I do the shopping on a non-workday, you bet I put bike shorts on for the 16 mile ride.
    Really? Wow! I usually don't even take water along for just 16 miles. I certainly wouldn't change out of street clothes for such a short trip. For me, if I'm not going to be riding for more than about two and a half hours, any benefit I get from cycling shorts is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to change out of street clothes. (That time may well increase after I get my Brooks installed and broken in.)
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    You really put on a roadie outfit to go to the market? That's just...odd.
    Yeah...I wear roadie outfits from REI, AA, Eddie Bauer, and Patagonia. In fact even my boxer briefs have lycra in them.



    Which kind of bike is best? One that is reliable, affordable, and practical for commuting and errands. In other words, not a carbon road bike...This probably translates to urban and hybrid bikes.
    Both of my commuter hybrids are carbon fiber.

    bike.jpg

    It's the perception that cycling is something that you do in a park or on a trail for fun instead of as a valid alternative to the automobile.
    ~20% of the people in my neighborhood commute by bike and I have never seen a dutch style city bike in my neighbourhood. Seriously, not one.

    Some pictures of people who bike on my commuting route:

    http://bikeportland.org/2013/01/23/p...s-circle-82171

    OMG!!!! "racing" bikes, lycra, day-glo cycling jackets, and helments!!!!!1!!!!!

    Distance has nothing to do with it.
    Distance has a lot to do with whether I choose to walk or bike.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-02-13 at 05:49 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    One can commute with any bike.
    I would enjoy seeing you take the 10-12% grade on my commute on that 40 lb opafiets you pine away for.


    Really? Wow! I usually don't even take water along for just 16 miles.
    I prefer to stay hydrated. Your liver may vary.


    any benefit I get from cycling shorts is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to change out of street clothes.
    It takes me ~5 seconds to change into bike shorts.

    That time may well increase after I get my Brooks installed and broken in.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-02-13 at 06:02 PM.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  17. #67
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    The clothing thing aways seems to get presented as binary ordinary clothes or full lycra race kit

    for me and and I would guess most people the reality is it is or should be a continum of form follows function, based on a combination of factors including purpose of ride, distance, speed weather, personal preffernce among others.

    For me this works out kinda like this:

    I need to jump on my bike and do a quick errand/utility run. I jump on the bike in what I am wearing, except never sandals for flip flops. The bike: either the torpado city bike conversion or my nishiki utility commuter depending on how much I have to carry.

    I want a quick (10 mile or so) bit of exercise, Shorts (non bike specific...usually gramicci) and t shirt, sneakers. The bike: the torpado city bike

    Commute to work 5 miles each way. Shorts (non bike specific...usually gramicci) and t shirt. Bike gloves and spd shoes. the bike the utility/commuiter (once in a while the torpado with sneakers...it is just afun ride). but if my commute were longer I would go my miyata road bike and cycle specific gear (bikes shorts (voler if it matters) and bike jersey (polyestra/lyrcra, not team fit....with my companies logo on it), bikes shoes gloves I find 10 miles my personal max in not bike shorts.


    for longer than 10 mile rides my miyata road bike and cycle specific gear (bikes shorts (voler if it matters) and bike jersey (polyestra/lyrcra, not team fit....with my companies logo on it), bikes shoes gloves

    many places it is too hot and humid to commute by bike in work clothes even for short distances. Sure people have done centurys in Levis but most people would not find that optimum. I don't know of any one who put on kit to go on an errand unless it is combined with a longer ride.

    and to help visualize and because we don't post enough bike pic in A & S here are the bikes

    torapdo



    commuter utility


    road
    '82 Nishiski commuter/utility
    '83 Torpado Super Strada ... cafe commuter
    '89 Miyata 1400
    Soma rush Fixie
    '78 Univega gran turismo (son's Fixie/SS)
    06 Haro x3 (son's bmx)
    Electra cruiser (wife's bike)

    looking for: De Rosa 58cm ELOS frame and fork internal cable routing

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I would enjoy seeing you take the longish 10-12% grade on my commute on that 40 lb opafiets you pine away for.
    It's funny how many roadies think it's impossible to climb moderate hills without a lightweight road bike. Such a hill wouldn't be a problem for me. I make steeper climbs than that with my steel singlespeed, which weighs in around 30 pounds. Further, I often have another 25-30 pounds on my back when I commute and when I take my frequent "lunchtime" rides (10-15 miles, usually). Ten more pounds won't make any real difference.

    I prefer to stay hydrated.
    Me too, but for just 16 miles, drinking water before I leave is sufficient.

    It takes me ~5 seconds to change into bike shorts.
    Congratulations. Do your bike shorts have the convenience of a lot of pockets like my street clothes do? I prefer being able to use those pockets. Why would I want to rearrange all my stuff just so I can wear special clothes that won't provide any noticeable benefit until I'm ~150 minutes into my ride when I won't be riding for 150 minutes? It isn't worth the inconvenience for me.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    It's funny how many roadies think it's impossible to climb moderate hills without a lightweight road bike. Such a hill wouldn't be a problem for me. I make steeper climbs than that with my steel singlespeed, which weighs in around 30 pounds.
    If you ever visit PDX I would be happy to rent you a workcycles citybike so that you can give me some hill climbing pointers.


    Congratulations. Do your bike shorts have the convenience of a lot of pockets like my street clothes do? I prefer being able to use those pockets. Why would I want to rearrange all my stuff just so I can wear special clothes that won't provide any noticeable benefit until I'm ~150 minutes into my ride when I won't be riding for 150 minutes? It isn't worth the inconvenience for me.
    It takes seconds to move my wallet, keys, and phone into velcroed or zippered bicycle specific jersey pockets.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Really? Wow! I usually don't even take water along for just 16 miles. I certainly wouldn't change out of street clothes for such a short trip. For me, if I'm not going to be riding for more than about two and a half hours, any benefit I get from cycling shorts is outweighed by the inconvenience of having to change out of street clothes. (That time may well increase after I get my Brooks installed and broken in.)
    The lack on any flat surface on any of the ride makes it feel a touch longer, especially with a FULL load of groceries on the way home.
    Hydration is a good thing and I never found it that hard to put a water bottle in a cage.

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    I would enjoy seeing you take the 10-12% grade on my commute on that 40 lb opafiets you pine away for.

    I prefer to stay hydrated. Your liver may vary.

    It takes me ~5 seconds to change into bike shorts.

    With his claims of such a hard ass, you would think the Brooks would not need to be broken in for him.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    It takes seconds to move my wallet, keys, and phone into velcroed or zippered bicycle specific jersey pockets.
    Perhaps, but for short rides, they aren't necessary or, in many cases, desirable. They certainly aren't as convenient to shop in as street clothes.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  22. #72
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    It's funny how many roadies think it's impossible to climb moderate hills without a lightweight road bike. Such a hill wouldn't be a problem for me. I make steeper climbs than that with my steel singlespeed, which weighs in around 30 pounds. Further, I often have another 25-30 pounds on my back when I commute and when I take my frequent "lunchtime" rides (10-15 miles, usually). Ten more pounds won't make any real difference.
    That is a video I want to watch, you climbing a one mile >12% grade on your single speed with 30 pounds on your back. Let us know when you have posted it.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  23. #73
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Perhaps, but for short rides, they aren't necessary or, in many cases, desirable. They certainly aren't as convenient to shop in as street clothes.
    I have experienced no inconvenience while shopping in bike clothes. Odd that you find it so inconvenient.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    The lack on any flat surface on any of the ride makes it feel a touch longer, especially with a FULL load of groceries on the way home.
    Need some cheese with your whine? Having ridden in very hilly and very flat environments, hills are overrated as a formidable challenge. Sure, they may suck while climbing, but descending is much easier than cycling in flatlands. Gravity is a conservative force.

    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Hydration is a good thing and I never found it that hard to put a water bottle in a cage.
    I agree it is very easy to take water. It just isn't necessary for a short 16 mile ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    With his claims of such a hard ass, you would think the Brooks would not need to be broken in for him.
    That's the thing. I'm not any sort of super cyclist. I just ride enough to know that it doesn't take a super-cyclist to climb moderate hills or to pedal short distances. As millions of Dutch have proven, ordinary people can ride heavy city bikes in strong winds and up hills in normal street clothing, with loads.

    It's riding a bike, not an extreme sport.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    It's funny how many roadies think it's impossible to climb moderate hills without a lightweight road bike. Such a hill wouldn't be a problem for me. I make steeper climbs than that with my steel singlespeed, which weighs in around 30 pounds. Further, I often have another 25-30 pounds on my back when I commute and when I take my frequent "lunchtime" rides (10-15 miles, usually). Ten more pounds won't make any real difference.



    Me too, but for just 16 miles, drinking water before I leave is sufficient.



    Congratulations. Do your bike shorts have the convenience of a lot of pockets like my street clothes do? I prefer being able to use those pockets. Why would I want to rearrange all my stuff just so I can wear special clothes that won't provide any noticeable benefit until I'm ~150 minutes into my ride when I won't be riding for 150 minutes? It isn't worth the inconvenience for me.
    OK this isn't my discussion... but I am going to throw my 2 cents in here anyway... I've been cycling long enough to know the difference and I am in good enough shape to ride anyway I want... the bottom line is your body physiology is not my body physiology... you may not sweat one bit while doing a moderate hill climb... and your definition of a moderate hill climb may be quite different from what others call a moderate hill climb... all I know is that just riding the hills near my home, I will end up a sweaty mess... (mostly from my head) and to not change clothes even for a lousy 6 mile ride will have me wearing damp "undesirable" clothing all day long at work.

    I sweat enough to wear paint off the top tube of my bike... So bottom line, what works for you, may not work for others and vice versa. Some of us choose to change clothes because in the end, it IS more comfortable.

    When I go to the local grocery just a mile away... I tend to NOT wear bike specific clothing. When I go to the local pub, 3 miles away, I get a bit damp, but still don't change clothes. When I go to work, up and down various hills, and only 7 miles away, I DO change clothes.

    But by and large the views of cycling in the US is that it is a sport... and people have a tendency to treat it as a sport and thus wear cycling specific clothing... which others that don't bike, tend to feel is something they do not want to do. This also tends to slant the views of folks from other countries about American cycling.

    And again, your mileage may vary.

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