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Old 07-02-13, 07:03 PM   #76
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That's the thing. I'm not any sort of super cyclist. I just ride enough to know that it doesn't take a super-cyclist to climb moderate hills or to pedal short distances. As millions of Dutch have proven, ordinary people can ride heavy city bikes in strong winds and up hills in normal street clothing, with loads.

It's riding a bike, not an extreme sport.
The Dutch and > 12% hills, really?

I remember the course profile from one stage of a professional race. It was the flattest stage I have ever seen in any race, even flat time trials.


I grew up in Colorado, whenever our Kansas relatives told us about their hills, we would give them a Sunday drive in the Rockies with them looking down a 1,000 foot straight down drop. For some reason, they never mentioned their hill again.

Shall we compare elevation maps?

http://www.netstate.com/states/geogr...co_mapscom.htm

http://www.netstate.com/states/geogr...mo_mapscom.htm

Even the four main Hawaiian Islands top the big MO.

http://www.netstate.com/states/geogr...hi_mapscom.htm
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Old 07-02-13, 07:17 PM   #77
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(8) +1

I agree with (8) (post # 14) and what he said about some of the regular posters being so judgementa If someone posts an opinion that doesnt agree with them right down the line, they get jumped on. I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to share it here.

Part of the reason I agree with (8) is that I ride a bent in plain T-shirts and rugby shorts. I ride at a moderate speed for a 75 year old, probably faster apparently than they do over the pond. I am out to impress no one. Those days thankfully are behind me. And of course the people that (8) was talking about have assured me that I do not impress them. And you know what------------I dont care.

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Old 07-02-13, 07:30 PM   #78
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(8) +1

I agree with (8) (post # 14) and what he said about some of the regular posters being so judgementa If someone posts an opinion that doesnt agree with them right down the line, they get jumped on. I feel that everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to share it here.
This is an unreal statement considering your many post in the helmet thread.
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Old 07-02-13, 07:45 PM   #79
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I jump on the bike in what I am wearing, except never sandals for flip flops.

I always ride in bike shorts. I just find them more comfortable. But I'll wear sandals and a tee shirt for shorter rides. Birks have a nice stiff sole that works pretty well. I've been contemplating trying them on a longer ride as they are much cooler in the Florida summer.

When I was young, we'd ride a century riding commando in Levis. People should wear whatever they find comfortable. Who cares what anyone else wears?
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Old 07-02-13, 07:46 PM   #80
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When I go to the local grocery just a mile away... I tend to NOT wear bike specific clothing. When I go to the local pub, 3 miles away, I get a bit damp, but still don't change clothes. When I go to work, up and down various hills, and only 7 miles away, I DO change clothes.
15 years ago when I walked into a pub wearing bike specific clothing people stared at the weird cyclist. Now when I walk into a pub wearing a cycling cap and mtb-style bike pants they stare because I'm the older dude dressed up like a hipster.
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Old 07-02-13, 10:27 PM   #81
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I suddenly have to wonder which is worse -- "parochial", or "condescending".....
The observations were ok, but the mannerisms of the narrator seemed prissy and just ~this~ close to condescension. After a couple minutes I felt like I was listening to an NPR opinion piece. Usually I find foreign perspectives very interesting.
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Old 07-03-13, 05:17 AM   #82
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I find that lots of people I meet are reluctant to ride for two reasons:
1. Traffic
2. Needing to get special equipment
Odd. The biggest reason I've seen is sheer laziness.
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Old 07-03-13, 05:18 AM   #83
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Many of us do our shopping at the end of our daily commute. So what is odd about that?

One store I do much of my shopping at is 8 miles from home, so if I do the shopping on a non-workday, you bet I put bike shorts on for the 16 mile ride. About half the time, I even use the CF bike. No way I am using a hybrid bike.

Do you believe touring cyclist should have to change clothes to get a few groceries?
You put on shorts for a 16 mile ride? Whatever floats your boat, but even on 20 mile rides, I've not see a need for anything special to wear, except maybe a polyester shirt.
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Old 07-03-13, 05:30 AM   #84
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I think around here in Eastern NC it's getting a bit better but it's still fairly danderous on the main highways...Texting and drunk drivers add a uncontrolable aspect to dodging danger... Some cities are a but more biker concious...When i lived in Toronto we had nice paved trails and cage drivers were a bit more respectful of bikers...I try to be very defensive but i also stay off the main highways...I was told by a few Europeans while i lived in Toronto that biking was way more popular in Europe...I said Duh! freakin price of gas, you can barely afford to fillup...
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Old 07-03-13, 05:32 AM   #85
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Odd. The biggest reason I've seen is sheer laziness.
I will admit....that was me....LOL
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Old 07-03-13, 07:10 AM   #86
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OK this isn't my discussion... but I am going to throw my 2 cents in here anyway... I've been cycling long enough to know the difference and I am in good enough shape to ride anyway I want... the bottom line is your body physiology is not my body physiology... you may not sweat one bit while doing a moderate hill climb... and your definition of a moderate hill climb may be quite different from what others call a moderate hill climb... all I know is that just riding the hills near my home, I will end up a sweaty mess... (mostly from my head) and to not change clothes even for a lousy 6 mile ride will have me wearing damp "undesirable" clothing all day long at work.

I sweat enough to wear paint off the top tube of my bike... So bottom line, what works for you, may not work for others and vice versa. Some of us choose to change clothes because in the end, it IS more comfortable.

When I go to the local grocery just a mile away... I tend to NOT wear bike specific clothing. When I go to the local pub, 3 miles away, I get a bit damp, but still don't change clothes. When I go to work, up and down various hills, and only 7 miles away, I DO change clothes.

But by and large the views of cycling in the US is that it is a sport... and people have a tendency to treat it as a sport and thus wear cycling specific clothing... which others that don't bike, tend to feel is something they do not want to do. This also tends to slant the views of folks from other countries about American cycling.

And again, your mileage may vary.
You bring up a fair point.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I can easily shower and make my ~4 mile commute in the same (casual) clothes I wear all day. Three seasons of the year (FWS), I'll try to get away for a quick 10-15 mile ride in the afternoon, also. Unfortunately, I don't have a place to securely keep my stuff, so I have to bring it along in my backpack. Unless it's really hot, sweating isn't an issue. Even if it's hot, it's only an issue for the first few minutes off the bike.
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Old 07-03-13, 07:12 AM   #87
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The Dutch and > 12% hills, really?
Yes, really.

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Even the four main Hawaiian Islands top the big MO.
I agree. I've lived both places (and have spent quite a bit of time in CO as a kid). Missouri is no Kansas, though. I've also lived in Florida, where there isn't a hill to be found. One can ride as easy or as hard as they want, pretty much anywhere they are.

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Old 07-03-13, 07:18 AM   #88
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So much for the Forester perspective that Holland is flat. Now can we get beyond the "they only commute a couple of kilometers" myth too.
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Old 07-03-13, 08:34 AM   #89
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Odd. The biggest reason I've seen is sheer laziness.
Is that also your reason why people don't run to and from work and home; or use clothes washers and dryers instead of doing them by hand in a tub and wringer?
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Old 07-03-13, 08:39 AM   #90
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So much for the Forester perspective that Holland is flat. Now can we get beyond the "they only commute a couple of kilometers" myth too.

Umm, So? I can ride my 70's Schwinn Suburban up that hill, and about as slow too, but why would I want to? Light doesn't necessarily mean unreliable.
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Old 07-03-13, 09:58 AM   #91
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Is that also your reason why people don't run to and from work and home; or use clothes washers and dryers instead of doing them by hand in a tub and wringer?
Yes, actually. I'm too damned lazy wash clothes by hand, rather than use a powered machine to do it. I don't run to/fro for work because I'm biking instead.

Shy of one person, nobody has ever said to me,"Gee, I'd bike to and from work, but man, those streets are too dangerous!"

What I have heard has been:"Man, I just don't feel like biking into work every morning..."; or,"Ya know, I just need to be able to get into work, and get my coffee on the way in...", and the best one,"But, 3 miles is just too far to bike just to get to work. I'll drive."
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Old 07-03-13, 10:11 AM   #92
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You put on shorts for a 16 mile ride? Whatever floats your boat, but even on 20 mile rides, I've not see a need for anything special to wear, except maybe a polyester shirt.
I can say that for me..repeat for me, the cotton gramicci shorts I wear for commuting and most errand riding are great up to about 10 miles anything beyond that they become uncomfortable...especially if it is hot.

I would guess i am not in the minority this way, but the big point is what works for you may not work for others.

If you can do 20 or a 100 miles in non bike specific gear....good for you, but don't assume that it works for anyone else.
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Old 07-03-13, 10:56 AM   #93
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I can say that for me..repeat for me, the cotton gramicci shorts I wear for commuting and most errand riding are great up to about 10 miles anything beyond that they become uncomfortable...especially if it is hot.

I would guess i am not in the minority this way, but the big point is what works for you may not work for others.

If you can do 20 or a 100 miles in non bike specific gear....good for you, but don't assume that it works for anyone else.
Exactly... there are folks that have come on BF and tell tales of doing 50 mile rides in Levis.

Doesn't work for me...

I have never been able to wear anything slightly heavy or with seams on a bike. When I first started biking quite a bit in the '70's, I wore running shorts... until someone told me about wool bike shorts... I was sold immediately. These days I prefer Pearl I shorts, and frankly I would wear them anytime I am on the bike... but sometimes, for a short ride, I just wear baggy cotton shorts. My utility (commuting... "everyday") bike has racks and I tend to carry at least one pannier all the time (man purse?). Since I can end up anywhere during the day, I tend to throw a shirt and other shorts into my bag just so I am not wearing bike gear when I end up somewhere else. So I look "just like every one else."

I wear bike shorts because I find them very comfortable... I don't wear bike jerseys for the same reason... I don't find them comfortable... So I don't wear a "kit" so to speak. I like cotton, so I may wear a Tshirt or one of my many "aloha" shirts. For the record, I do own two jerseys... which I wear on rare occasions... more likely though, I am wearing a long sleeve cotton T.

Some folks have mentioned carrying wallet and other stuff in pockets in shorts... I don't do that because those things bang against my legs as I pedal... and I find that very annoying. But that is me... could be a difference in cadence, riding style, type of bike... who knows.

To me, it is all about comfort...
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Old 07-03-13, 11:01 AM   #94
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Yes, actually. I'm too damned lazy wash clothes by hand, rather than use a powered machine to do it. I don't run to/fro for work because I'm biking instead.

Shy of one person, nobody has ever said to me,"Gee, I'd bike to and from work, but man, those streets are too dangerous!"

What I have heard has been:"Man, I just don't feel like biking into work every morning..."; or,"Ya know, I just need to be able to get into work, and get my coffee on the way in...", and the best one,"But, 3 miles is just too far to bike just to get to work. I'll drive."
I have heard that danger thing a number of times... a neighbor of mine rode sidewalks the same route I took to the same office... because "riding in the streets is just foolish..." Again, of course this all depends on where you are and what the conditions are.
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Old 07-03-13, 11:31 AM   #95
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Maybe I'm just lucky, but I can easily shower and make my ~4 mile commute in the same (casual) clothes I wear all day.
What you call luck I call a flat 4 mile commute that does not include a thousand in elevation gain.
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Old 07-03-13, 11:45 AM   #96
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Yes, actually. I'm too damned lazy wash clothes by hand, rather than use a powered machine to do it. I don't run to/fro for work because I'm biking instead.

Shy of one person, nobody has ever said to me,"Gee, I'd bike to and from work, but man, those streets are too dangerous!"

What I have heard has been:"Man, I just don't feel like biking into work every morning..."; or,"Ya know, I just need to be able to get into work, and get my coffee on the way in...", and the best one,"But, 3 miles is just too far to bike just to get to work. I'll drive."
So darn what that you ride a bike, rather than drive, does that give you extra special status to disparage anybody who is not just like you as "lazy" ? Those people you have deemed as lazy may think you are a JackAss, so what?

Maybe some other Jackass thinks that anybody who bikes to work rather than run all the way is a lazy jerk, so what?
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Old 07-03-13, 11:54 AM   #97
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So much for the Forester perspective that Holland is flat. Now can we get beyond the "they only commute a couple of kilometers" myth too.
Except that Holland *IS* very flat. Moreover, the couple of km stat came from the Dutch Bureau of Statistics. Specifically, the average round trip distance was 4.3 km or ~1.3 miles one way.
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Old 07-03-13, 12:19 PM   #98
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Except that Holland *IS* very flat. Moreover, the couple of km stat came from the Dutch Bureau of Statistics. Specifically, the average round trip distance was 4.3 km or ~1.3 miles one way.
If I rode my bike everywhere, my average trip would probably be about the same. I'm not sure what your point is. People who ride bikes shorter distances aren't as cool as you?
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Old 07-03-13, 12:31 PM   #99
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If I rode my bike everywhere, my average trip would probably be about the same. I'm not sure what your point is. People who ride bikes shorter distances aren't as cool as you?
Certainly must be way cooler than those lazy people who don't climb a thousand feet of elevation and/or average 20+ mph every time they go out the door. Thatz what Real, True, Serious Cycling is all about, doncha know?
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Old 07-03-13, 01:12 PM   #100
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While looking up the 4.3km number, I came across an interesting study on why (and why not) the Dutch cycle to work. I'm sure there's something in it for everyone to piss on about:

http://www.ijbnpa.org/content/7/1/89

"Besides the obvious reason ('living too far from work'; 41%), the three main reasons stated by non-cyclists for not cycling to work were 'sweating' (30%), 'weather dependency' (23%) and 'too time-consuming' (23%). Alongside 'living closer to work' (39%), the three main facilitators for starting to cycle to work were 'shorter travelling time compared with other means of transportation' (20%), 'cycling together' (14%) and 'if I didn't need my car that much for my job' (10%). Only relatively few non-cyclists stated environmental factors (i.e. paid parking, better/more cycling paths, better facilities at work etc.) and employee support as facilitators of commuter cycling (all ≤ 6%). Finally, 22% stated that they would never cycle to work."

---

W.r.t. the OP, the commentor's comments do border a little on the preachy. But the perception is that everyone in America is in a hurry, so it's easy to categorize the cyclists the same way. From my experience (in the other little 'D' country in Europe), those who commuted longer distances often dressed more like their American brethren and rode faster -- they had farther to go so what would you expect -- but the vast majority were in street clothes. Some people zip; some people laze.

The typical bike is _not_ the classic Dutch upright (though it might be more common in Copenhagen where having it stolen is less of a loss), but a city bike or hybrid: flat bars, semi-aggressive posture, skinny-ish tires.
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