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  1. #101
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Except that Holland *IS* very flat. Moreover, the couple of km stat came from the Dutch Bureau of Statistics. Specifically, the average round trip distance was 4.3 km or ~1.3 miles one way.
    As if people only commute... Wonder how they get groceries, see friends, run errands... you know all those things that folks in the US jump in the car for.

    Stats for America list 40% of all errands at only about 2 miles and commutes at around 14 miles... yet we "need" a car for those?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Certainly must be way cooler than those lazy people who don't climb a thousand feet of elevation and/or average 20+ mph every time they go out the door. Thatz what Real, True, Serious Cycling is all about, doncha know?
    Quote Originally Posted by spivonious View Post
    If I rode my bike everywhere, my average trip would probably be about the same. I'm not sure what your point is. People who ride bikes shorter distances aren't as cool as you?

    I never pass an oma- or bakfiets and grumble to myself: "If only that person road a sensible carbon fiber bike and wore stretchy bike-specific clothing, mode share would surely be higher."

    Considering that we started discussing hills and distance due to the absurd claim that those who wear lycra and ride "racing" bikes have a negative impact on cycling, I gotta smile at the faux indignation. Especially since I explicitly stated up thread that I am a fan of all styles of cycling -- the more idiosyncratic the better!
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaleur View Post
    From my experience (in the other little 'D' country in Europe), those who commuted longer distances often dressed more like their American brethren and rode faster -- they had farther to go so what would you expect -- but the vast majority were in street clothes. Some people zip; some people laze.
    Every single pair of shorts I own are made of synthetic quick dry fabric that typically contains lycra. While some are intended for cycling, some are also intended for climbing, hiking, or running. These clothes are my street clothes.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-03-13 at 02:03 PM.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Stats for America list 40% of all errands at only about 2 miles and commutes at around 14 miles... yet we "need" a car for those?
    I think my opinions on our motoring "habit" are well known...
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  5. #105
    Je pose, donc je suis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Every single pair of shorts I own are made of synthetic quick dry fabric that typically contains lycra. While some are intended for cycling, some are also intended for climbing, hiking, or running. These clothes are my street clothes.
    Men don't wear shorts in Europe. They wear capris.

  6. #106
    Je pose, donc je suis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    As if people only commute... Wonder how they get groceries, see friends, run errands... you know all those things that folks in the US jump in the car for.

    Stats for America list 40% of all errands at only about 2 miles and commutes at around 14 miles... yet we "need" a car for those?
    As you well know (you lived in Finland, right?), the shopping habits are quite different, in no small part because of the diference in cycling attitudes. Americans tend to go to the 'big box' off the six-lane arterial fewer times a week and load up their carts, while Europeans are more likely to swing by the store for a few things (they still drive to the big box occasionaly.

    As such, the neighborhood grocery store in Europe actually carries groceries, as opposed to just candy, drinks, cigarettes, and porn magazines.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
    Umm, So? I can ride my 70's Schwinn Suburban up that hill, and about as slow too, but why would I want to?
    There are those who would claim that hills and heavy city bikes are incompatible. They aren't.

    No one is claiming that city bikes are the optimal choice for every cyclist. However, their comfort and utility means they are an optimal choice for some cyclists.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  8. #108
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    There are those who would claim that hills and heavy city bikes are incompatible. They aren't.
    No, they aren't, just more work that's all.

    No one is claiming that city bikes are the optimal choice for every cyclist. However, their comfort and utility means they are an optimal choice for some cyclists.
    I'll agree with that. Ride what you like, like what you ride. Cushy couchbiking works for me, YMMV.
    Lightning P-38 / M5 M-Racer/Ryan Vanguard

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    What you call luck I call a flat 4 mile commute that does not include a thousand in elevation gain.
    That wouldn't be accurate, especially regarding afternoon rides with the same clothes and loads.

    Gravity is a conservative force. The net elevation gain between the starting point and ending point is what matters most, and for any loop, the net elevation gain is zero.
    Last edited by Jaywalk3r; 07-03-13 at 04:02 PM.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Except that Holland *IS* very flat. Moreover, the couple of km stat came from the Dutch Bureau of Statistics. Specifically, the average round trip distance was 4.3 km or ~1.3 miles one way.
    Most trips in the USA are also very short.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Gravity is a conservative force. The net elevation gain between the starting point and ending point is what matters most, and for any loop, that elevation gain is zero.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  12. #112
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaleur View Post
    Men don't wear shorts in Europe. They wear capris.
    only the mimes
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  13. #113
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaleur View Post
    As you well know (you lived in Finland, right?), the shopping habits are quite different, in no small part because of the diference in cycling attitudes. Americans tend to go to the 'big box' off the six-lane arterial fewer times a week and load up their carts, while Europeans are more likely to swing by the store for a few things (they still drive to the big box occasionaly.

    As such, the neighborhood grocery store in Europe actually carries groceries, as opposed to just candy, drinks, cigarettes, and porn magazines.
    Actually didn't "live" in Finland... just worked there. (if that makes sense... was a temp gig)

    Yes, I know what you mean... and it is a neighborhood by neighborhood thing. Where I live now in San Diego, if you want anything from a store, you go to a strip mall or shopping center... a large parking lot full of stores somewhat removed from local housing... although it may be surrounded by housing... the shopping center is an island in amongst the homes. Elsewhere in San Diego (the older neighborhoods) there are local shops scattered about right in the residential areas. In the very newest areas of San Diego is the "big box" model you describe... you go down the freeway to a big box store somewhere (the Walmart/suburb model).

    This is all very generational... the areas built in say 1900-1930 tend to have small shops scattered about in neighborhoods... and actually are somewhat friendly to cycling and walking. The areas built from about 1940-1960 or so tend to have malls or strip centers, located as islands in the residential areas. The areas built from 1970 on tend to have isolated malls, which maybe require even a freeway drive to the next exit or two away. Areas built from 1950 and on tend to be more and more autocentric. The newer the neighborhood, the more isolated it is from local shops and the less likely you are to find sidewalks... and more likely there are wide fast arterial roads... not exactly bike friendly.

    I have always preferred older neighborhoods; neighborhoods that are walkable and may be a bit more bike friendly, with local stores.

    Places I have been to in Europe tend to be of this mixed nature also... built with scattered neighborhood shops and businesses, with residential homes in the mix... I have seen this in Spain, France and Finland; but I have no doubt that the Walmart or "big box model" with isolated residential housing may exist also (I don't know, as I tend to avoid those isolated suburbs, due to them having "no character.")

    Cycling is easily supported by mixed-use neighborhoods... not so much so by the Walmart/suburb model.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Gravity is a conservative force. The net elevation gain between the starting point and ending point is what matters most, and for any loop, the net elevation gain is zero.
    You might (or might not) find this paper interesting.

    An excerpt:

    Elevation gain requires extra energy. But during the descent to the starting elevation, all of this extra energy is recovered. So, in the long term, by the principle of conservation of energy, the net energy consumed by elevation gain / loss will be zero; only the air drag and tire rolling energies need to be minimized. In other words, hill force is a reactive load, and hence, does not dissipate energy.

    At first, the notion that ascending and then descending a hill is an energy-neutral activity seems to be at odds with observation. Of course, one gets more tired on a hillier course. To explain this phenomenon, we must discern where the energy loss occurs. For this purpose, we explore the path of the energy through reactive and resistive loads in a time trial that includes hills.

    In a time trial without electric assistance, the athlete is going as fast as possible all the time. Therefore, when going uphill, speed is reduced; a relatively large portion of the athlete’s energy is used against the reactive load (hill force) and stored as potential energy. During the descent back to the starting elevation, all this stored energy is returned to help the athlete; hence the descending speed is higher than the ascending speed. But because air drag and tire rolling resistance increase with speed, the amount of energy that was stored during the (slow) ascent is less than the extra energy dissipated during the (fast) descent. This energy deficit is covered by the athlete working out for a longer time due to the slower average speed. So, while it is true that a hilly time trial consumes more energy than a flat one of the same length, the extra energy is consumed during the descent. And provided that the starting and ending elevations are the same and no braking is involved, the total energy can be accurately computed from the speed profile with no regard to the elevation profile. In other words, if the uphill and downhill speeds and distances were reproduced on a flat course, the total energy would be exactly equal to that on the hilly course.

    This has an important implication: It means that if the athlete had enough power to climb the hill at the same speed as descending it, then, a hilly time trial would have consumed exactly the same energy as a flat one of the same length and finishing time.

    If we want to accurately describe the difficulty (with respect to energy required) of a ride, knowing the variation associated with the riders ground speed and air speed is more important than knowing the elevation gain.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    You might (or might not) find this paper interesting.
    The fact that my return trip home is assisted by the potential energy of my morning climb does not make me any less sweaty when I arrive at work.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    The fact that my return trip home is assisted by the potential energy of my morning climb does not make me any less sweaty when I arrive at work.
    I would argue that your ride to work and your ride home are two separate rides, assuming you actually stay at work for a significant period of time. If the net climb on your way to work is greater than zero, that matters. What doesn't matter is the total elevation climbed without subtracting the total elevation descended.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  17. #117
    Je pose, donc je suis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    You might (or might not) find this paper interesting.
    I find the author's ability to ignore reality for his theory...ludicrous.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedaleur View Post
    I find the author's ability to ignore reality for his theory...ludicrous.
    Exactly which aspects of reality do you think he ignored? The science behind the paper appears to be quite sound, particularly the aspects related to climbs and descents.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  19. #119
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Yes, really.
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So much for the Forester perspective that Holland is flat. Now can we get beyond the "they only commute a couple of kilometers" myth too.
    Since 2003, the race has finished at the top of the Cauberg - a hill which has a pretty steep profile (according to the Dutch). The length of the climb is around 1200 m, with a maximum grade of 12%, Elevation 69 m.

    So the entire climb is 1200 m (0.72 miles) with less than 200 m between 10 - 12%. Really tough climb for the pros.

    That is less than the hill on my daily commute and I do not consider myself anything near a climber.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  20. #120
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Gravity is a conservative force.
    Sounds good, but fails when considering that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    So the entire climb is 1200 m (0.72 miles) with less than 200 m between 10 - 12%. Really tough climb for the pros.

    That is less than the hill on my daily commute and I do not consider myself anything near a climber.
    Hmmm … it wasn't that long ago that you were in disbelief that I could manage a 12% grade on my steel MTB In street clothes.

    Now 12% is cake for even non-climbers. Got it.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Sounds good, but fails when considering that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate.
    Your bizarre claim fails. Gravity is still a conservative force, even on this anniversary of the announcement of the Higgs Boson finding.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

  23. #123
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Hmmm … it wasn't that long ago that you were in disbelief that I could manage a 12% grade on my steel MTB In street clothes.

    Now 12% is cake for even non-climbers. Got it.
    Well, I have a clearer picture of what you must be calling >12% grade hills. Sorry, but the parking structure ramps of 10 yards length at 13% is not what I would call a hill.

    PS - I would still enjoy watching a video of your >12% hill climb.
    Last edited by CB HI; 07-04-13 at 04:33 AM.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  24. #124
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Your bizarre claim fails. Gravity is still a conservative force, even on this anniversary of the announcement of the Higgs Boson finding.
    Please do show your proof of the Higgs Boson Field and it's relation to gravitational forces.

    Do you also still believe that gravity is a pulling force rather than a pushing force?
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  25. #125
    Je pose, donc je suis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    Exactly which aspects of reality do you think he ignored? The science behind the paper appears to be quite sound, particularly the aspects related to climbs and descents.
    Think about the "if" in this statement:

    "This has an important implication: It means that if the athlete had enough power to climb the hill at the same speed as descending it, then, a hilly time trial would have consumed exactly the same energy as a flat one of the same length and finishing time."

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