Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15815797)
You strike me as someone who is quite young, jaywalk3r.
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15815797)
I suggest you come visit portland and try riding that 50 lb city bike up larch mountain to understand that common sense argument that pedaleur was making.
Portland is actually one of the few places in the US where city bikes are increasing in popularity, so be careful not to tell the people actually riding them there how impossible it would be. |
Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 15816117)
Your right, it is not my daily commute. My daily commute is 22 miles one way with more climbing than you can probably find in all of Springfield, Missouri.
Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 15816117)
And since you swore off bike specific clothing before even trying them …
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Originally Posted by buzzman
(Post 15818270)
So, what you're saying is that the answer to my question as to whether you've ridden in the Netherlands is, "No."
Maybe it doesn't matter to you but before I attach much significance to your opinions, or anyone else's, I prefer to listen to those with first hand experience on the infrastructures in question. Pardon my skepticism but I'll weigh your opinions based on your lack of experience. Pardon my skepticism but I'll weigh your opinions based on your lack of experience. |
Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 15816133)
Of course I understand the statement "gravity being a conservative force". Do you understand that we know about as much about gravity right now as the science on the curvature of the earth did during flat earth times.
The fact that you think you know all there is about gravity, indicates that you have little to add to this conversation as well. |
Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 15816153)
And much greater interest in pushing cyclist off the roadway and onto side paths.
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Originally Posted by Pedaleur
(Post 15816573)
This is correct. Poor wording on my part: using "difference in" instead of "deviation from" muddied the point.
But it only goes to show that hills will make your ride "harder". It's not about energy per se. Your bike gets back the energy, but your legs don't. The only real additional challenge hills provide is that the rider has to have enough energy to "pay for the downhills" in advance. For example, if we consider a ride that consists of one long climb and one long descent, with the summit at the midpoint. The rider has to be capable of expending enough effort in the first half of the ride. So, for the first half, climbing requires much more effort than riding the same distance in flat lands. For the second half, descending requires much less effort than riding the same distance in flatlands. But the rider must be capable of expending virtually all effort for the ride in the first half. If we assume that riding on the flatlands is done at a constant speed, then the only difference in total energy expended is due to the difference in speed of climbing versus descending. Ironically, it is the descent where the extra energy is expended. If we allow the possibility that the rider in the flatlands is doing interval training instead of riding at a constant speed, we no longer have sufficient information to determine which ride required more energy. |
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818360)
Portland is actually one of the few places in the US where city bikes are increasing in popularity...
Some pictorial evidence of what cyclists ride in PDX: http://bikeportland.org/2013/01/23/p...s-circle-82171 http://bikeportland.org/2012/10/12/p...corridor-78788 |
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15817934)
6% in the 90s to 17.4% and rising:
http://www.radlhauptstadt.muenchen.de/radlnetz/ Munich and Germany showed similar increases (albeit of slightly less magnitude) but I will let you do the googling. I am not doing any Googling. I have personal experience in NL as well as Amsterdam, Munich as well as in many other areas of Germany. I know that the Munich cycling environment is not the same as other areas, any more than Portland cycling environment is representative of many other areas of the U.S.
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15817934)
Calling the ADFC (Allgemeiner Deutscher Fahrrad-Club) a mere "bicycling club" is beyond silly. And if you cannot accept that their stance on segregated infrastructure and mandatory sidepath use is not representative of many cyclists in Germany then you are simply living in denial (which makes any kind of conversation very boring).
I doubt very seriously if one in 20 cyclists in either country has ever heard of the Big Controversy on Bike Lanes and Bike Infrastructure that is so popularly debated on blog sites of bicycling aficionados. |
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818448)
We're a long way away from having complete cycling infrastructure, so that's not a credible threat.
http://bikeportland.org/2012/06/29/p...a-street-73999 |
Originally Posted by mr_pedro
(Post 15817632)
The mistake I am reading in what you write is the underlying assumption that difficulty is a mere function of total energy required.
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Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818511)
Legs "get back the energy" on the downhills, which are "free" in terms of marginal costs. That is to say that once one summits the hill, they can typically coast back down with no additional effort, using only the potential energy stored from the climb.
The only real additional challenge hills provide is that the rider has to have enough energy to "pay for the downhills" in advance. For example, if we consider a ride that consists of one long climb and one long descent, with the summit at the midpoint. The rider has to be capable of expending enough effort in the first half of the ride. So, for the first half, climbing requires much more effort than riding the same distance in flat lands. For the second half, descending requires much less effort than riding the same distance in flatlands. But the rider must be capable of expending virtually all effort for the ride in the first half. If we assume that riding on the flatlands is done at a constant speed, then the only difference in total energy expended is due to the difference in speed of climbing versus descending. Ironically, it is the descent where the extra energy is expended. If we allow the possibility that the rider in the flatlands is doing interval training instead of riding at a constant speed, we no longer have sufficient information to determine which ride required more energy. |
Originally Posted by corvuscorvax
(Post 15817707)
Anybody who claims that because "gravity is a conservative force" that a 150km loop with 2000 m of climbing is just as easy as a 150km loop on the flat has a laughable understanding of both physics and cycling, and zero common sense to boot.
With the same average speed (i.e. the loops are ridden in exactly the same amount of time) and the same deviation from that average speed, a 150 km loop on flatland does, in fact, require the same energy as a 150 km loop with 2000 m of climbing (for the same rider+bike+load weight). It's just physics. |
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15818520)
I live here and see a few a year, at best. Cargo bikes and folders are another matter. Those are far, far more popular than city bikes.
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15818553)
city sign urging cyclists to stop cycling on thriving commercial street and move to bike route:
http://bikeportland.org/2012/06/29/p...a-street-73999 |
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
(Post 15818409)
I've cycled in AMS as a tourist on several occasions. If you want to start a separate thread on AMS infrastructure I would be more than willing to voice specific impressions. In the context of this thread, your attempts to change the topic to "what spare_wheel does not like about cycling in AMS" is just rhetorical hot air.
Have you cycled in AMS, CPH, and MUC? If not, should I discount any opinions you might have on separated cycle paths, in lane cycle tracks, and/or buffered bike lanes? I have never ridden in Germany. Since I'm just another internet poster I would suggest you weigh any and all opinions I express with a huge grain of salt. Please don't take it as an offense but having followed some of your posts on BF you are far from having established yourself as an authority. You come across as someone hyped up by blog posts and Internet bike chatter with some cycling experience in a very specific region of the US. So, yeah, it's entertaining to engage because I'm into bikes and all things bicycle but really I base my foundational opinions on my actual experience. |
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
(Post 15818543)
Policy making of the ADFC represents the concerns of most German cyclists in the same sense that policy making of the League of American Bicyclists represents the concerns of most American cyclists.
"Elimination of cycle path compulsory use". "Aufhebung der Benutzungspflicht von Radwegen". I doubt very seriously if one in 20 cyclists in either country has ever heard of the Big Controversy on Bike Lanes and Bike Infrastructure that is so popularly debated on blog sites of bicycling aficionados. |
Originally Posted by mr_pedro
(Post 15818560)
You are right when you talk in terms of energy or total work. But very wrong when you imply that effort or hardness of a ride is the same if total work is the same.
I've just called out B.S. on those who believe that riding in non-flat areas is too hard not to ride a super light bike in special cycling clothing. It just isn't true. Non-flat terrain does not imply a more difficult ride than flat terrain. Most any bike, including the heavy ones, can be set up to allow the rider to experience (what he/she perceives to be) a pleasant ride in the local terrain. |
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818574)
Clearly one of us doesn't understand the physics involved, but it isn't me.
With the same average speed (i.e. the loops are ridden in exactly the same amount of time) and the same deviation from that average speed, a 150 km loop on flatland does, in fact, require the same energy as a 150 km loop with 2000 m of climbing (for the same rider+bike+load weight). It's just physics. |
Originally Posted by mr_pedro
(Post 15818619)
You know about elementary physics equations but reading skills are lagging.
I'm not the one having such difficulty understanding the implications of the science. But feel free to keep trying to rationalize why total elevation climbed isn't a wholly meaningless stat. Do you need another example to show the ludicrousness of that stat? |
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818618)
Well, since "hardness" (in this context) is a purely subjective term, I haven't implied any such thing.
I've just called out B.S. on those who believe that riding in non-flat areas is too hard not to ride a super light bike in special cycling clothing. It just isn't true. Non-flat terrain does not imply a more difficult ride than flat terrain. Most any bike, including the heavy ones, can be set up to allow the rider to experience (what he/she perceives to be) a pleasant ride in the local terrain. Now I agree that hills don't have to make a ride more difficult with light enough gearing, you can just adjust the speed accordingly to produce the same power and your muscles wont know the difference. The entire energy argument is irrelevant. The only problem is that if your comfortable power output is such that on the flats you go at 10-12 mph, a 5% or 10% incline will almost surely make you go at an uncomfortable high pace. |
Originally Posted by buzzman
(Post 15818603)
I've said in this thread that I rode in the Netherlands while I was working in Rotterdam. I commuted daily in town. And did longer rides to Delft, The Hague and Amsterdam and other outlying areas.
http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/u...cherlead21.jpg You've come across as someone hyped up by blog posts and Internet bike chatter with some cycling experience in a very specific region of the US. I base my foundational opinions on my actual experience. you are far from having established yourself as an authority |
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818448)
We're a long way away from having complete cycling infrastructure, so that's not a credible threat.
As soon as funding becomes available, the last portion of that ride will change. I will be forced onto a sidepath by state law. It will have several driveways which will be points of heightened danger to me as cars careen off the main road into the businesses without looking at the sidepath/sidewalk. To make matters worse, I will be contraflowing with my load, which will lessen my maneuverability and some loads are high enough to prevent me from seeing cars that are overtaking at high speed. Thus, I disagree with you. You seem to be implying that we will not be removed from the roadway until segregation is complete, but our right to the road is already being removed. Since segregation that involves intersections can only work with extensive driver training and law enforcement, neither of which we have or will have, the threat of removal from the roadway is of great significance to those of us with skin in the game. |
Originally Posted by corvuscorvax
(Post 15816900)
And to think I'd been ignoring this thread! It's pure gold ... only on BF would somebody honestly think the Higgs Boson and General Relativity are germane to a discussion about cycling in the Netherlands.
Dude, we know everything we need to know about gravity as it applies to cycling. The expansion of the universe (accelerating or not) will not change how you get up that hill. Neither will the Higgs boson. |
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818427)
I realize that there's lots that we don't understand about gravity, such as exactly what causes gravity. Whether it is or isn't a conservative force is not one of the unknowns.
Then a man named Einstein came along with a theory that E=mc2. |
Originally Posted by CB HI
(Post 15816153)
And much greater interest in pushing cyclist off the roadway and onto side paths.
Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r
(Post 15818448)
We're a long way away from having complete cycling infrastructure, so that's not a credible threat.
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