Dutch perspective on cycling in the US
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The lesson to be learned from this is that it is very necessary to avoid parochialism, particularly, for Americans, to avoid attempting to adopt Dutch parochial views about cycling in the expectation that such adoption will turn America into a Dutch-style paradise.
The "Dutch style paradise" works very well for them. We are not even close to having anything that works on such a large scale.
Like it or not, it is a standard that the rest of the world commonly use to show effective cycling. Would it work here? Who Knows? It all pointless conjecture. This board is an example--the microcosm of the macrocosm--of why America will never catch up relative to the rest of the world. Our supposed 'advocate's' cant agree on anything, and their hyper-combativeness is a turn-off to the more rational and free-thinking silent majority and bike haters, alike. Its laughable to think the arrogant american advocate is going to learn a lesson or be swayed by anyone other than themselves. So, not to worry, Im sure USA's version of criticizing, being divisive and close-minded as advocacy will remain in tact for a long time . . .
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A bit of reminder may be helpful, much like sharrow paint.
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Cycling is not taken seriously -- it is something children do or those who have not grown up and its mainly seen as a leisure activity.
People cycle on specific tracks and not to get from A to B
Others take their bikes on their car.
They are trying to outrun other traffic.
It really seems like a chase
Less racing and more cycling from A to B
...for everyday pruposes and not as a sport.
Even in Davis I hardly saw any cycling infra...and that's probably why some people choose to ride in lycra and helmets.
It almost looks like these people are riding a race rather than going home after work.
Chicago goes a step further with a line of cars protecting a bike lane...
It may change the type of cycling from this more racy variety...
Seeing more upright cyclists in ordinary clothes would be positive. There could be a good future for cycling in the US.
I did not realize that I was promoting a bad future for cycling in the USA! I guess I will have to get rid of my sporty clothing and carbon fiber bikes and buy some tight jeans and an opafiets.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 06-29-13 at 07:30 PM.
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and their hyper-combativeness is a turn-off to the more rational and free-thinking silent majority
and bike haters, alike.
Its laughable to think the arrogant american advocate is going to learn a lesson or be swayed by anyone other than themselves.
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Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view
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I'm far from a "Bike Lane Everywhere", and far from "Always ride like a car" cyclist; but I think this Dutch perspective fails to take into account the realities of the US.
Bike infra here IS the roadway. Everything else is just a type of lane segregation. We don't have HOV lanes up and down the interstates, because they're not needed.
Bike specific infra is only needed in some areas, not everywhere. My entire commute would is fine without bike lanes; segregated by paint or otherwise (Now, some road repair is needed). Other areas of the city here would do well with some types of lanes.
I mean, I cannot fathom how people do bike touring, without all that bike specific infra is possible; according to this guy in the video.
Bike infra here IS the roadway. Everything else is just a type of lane segregation. We don't have HOV lanes up and down the interstates, because they're not needed.
Bike specific infra is only needed in some areas, not everywhere. My entire commute would is fine without bike lanes; segregated by paint or otherwise (Now, some road repair is needed). Other areas of the city here would do well with some types of lanes.
I mean, I cannot fathom how people do bike touring, without all that bike specific infra is possible; according to this guy in the video.
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A little bit of comparing apples & oranges in this video. Obviously the roadies in full kit out riding for fitness, race practice, or endurance stand out when compared to the others riders who were wearing anything from gym clothes to dress wear while out commuting. I'm sure there's plenty of roadies in Europe too that, for some reason, he hasn't noticed them before.
#34
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The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
#35
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The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
Regrettably, some nice things that help improve the quality of life may just be hard to come true in the U.S. of A., for whatever reason (probably partly due to the existence of such people like Rabinowitz)--e.g. the universal health-care systems adopted in some European countries.
Last edited by vol; 06-29-13 at 10:11 PM.
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The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
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Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view
American views differ from Dutch views in several critical ways. America has long had mass motoring since the dawn of the automotive age, so that American cities and their patterns of living, working, commerce, social connections, etc., have grown up to suit motoring transport. Motoring works so well that the market shares of mass transit and bicycle transport are much smaller than in Holland. Not only that, but American policy regarding bicycle traffic is guided by what motorists want, to have bikes pushed aside for the convenience of motorists.
American views differ from Dutch views with respect to their cycling populations: America has a significant population of cyclists who obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. These vehicular cyclists recognize that the American policy of traffic-incompetent cycling on bikeways was created by motorists for the convenience of motorists. These cyclists recognize that doing what the motorists want reduces cyclists' safety and convenience, that American "cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles." The vehicular cycling view has plenty of scientific support, while the view favoring incompetent cycling on bikeways has practically none. And, frankly, vehicular cyclists don't see much difference between American bikeways and Dutch bikeways in that respect.
America has two reasons for its situation. First, motoring works so well for so many that there is not much market for either mass transit or bicycle transport. Second, since the major American transportation system is operation on roadways, American cyclists need to operate on roadways and, when doing so, operate by the same rules of the road as other drivers. Exasperation at this system, shown by many more than by only "8", comes partly from militant motorists because bicycles are still on the roads, but more loudly so from those who fail to realize that their anti-motoring "pro-bike" program is not suited to American history and conditions.
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The guy is just saying it would be nice if cycling was a safer and more relaxed activity in the US. I agree 100%. If it was, more people would probably do it. Our roads for the most part aren't very bike friendly, and driver attitudes towards cyclists trying to share the road aren't either.
Relaxation is subjective. I find a long "training" ride to be a great form of relaxation. Moreover, the use of "relaxed" (e.g. upright, normal clothing, slow pace) is often a code word for cycling judgement.
If it was, more people would probably do it.
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Regrettably, some nice things that help improve the quality of life may just be hard to come true in the U.S. of A., for whatever reason (probably partly due to the existence of such people like Rabinowitz)--e.g. the universal health-care systems adopted in some European countries.
PS: Obamacare *is* a Swiss-style universal health-care system.
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#41
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Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view
The other side has said that they would not oppose bike lanes that are 5 - 6 feet wide, out of the door zone, end 100 - 200 feet before intersections, do not have mandatory use laws and are preferably on uphills where cyclist are slowed.
How do you expect me to support a bike lane advocate that is not willing to first end the mandatory use law?
The bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners do love these bike lane advocates. Would you like to see the pictures again of the bike lanes these advocates have managed to get painted in this mandatory use state?
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I do thank you for helping quantify my opinion about the laughable state of bike advocacy in the USA, currently.
You make my point better than I could with stuff like this
Waiting . . .
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I Should have stopped reading after the above, but mucked onward through this palaverous cesspool out of morbid curiosity. Ridiculous, as to be expected, and not really worth commenting on other than to ask you to point to any of my posts that would lead you say something like anything like this: "Exasperation at this system, shown by many more than by only "8",
I do thank you for helping quantify my opinion about the laughable state of bike advocacy in the USA, currently.
You make my point better than I could with stuff like this
Waiting . . .
I do thank you for helping quantify my opinion about the laughable state of bike advocacy in the USA, currently.
You make my point better than I could with stuff like this
Waiting . . .
"The "Dutch style paradise" works very well for them. We are not even close to having anything that works on such a large scale.
Like it or not, it is a standard that the rest of the world commonly use to show effective cycling. Would it work here? Who Knows? It all pointless conjecture. This board is an example--the microcosm of the macrocosm--of why America will never catch up relative to the rest of the world. Our supposed 'advocate's' cant agree on anything, and their hyper-combativeness is a turn-off to the more rational and free-thinking silent majority and bike haters, alike. Its laughable to think the arrogant american advocate is going to learn a lesson or be swayed by anyone other than themselves. So, not to worry, Im sure USA's version of criticizing, being divisive and close-minded as advocacy will remain in tact for a long time . . ."
"Getting bike haters ie, politicians, city-planners, etc, to make concessions to us is a huge part of real life advocacy. So yes, when people who hate us watch us argue like 14 year old girls on FaceBook, it is not flattering or good strategy for pressing our point of view "
Rather than describing my post as muck, palaverous cesspool, etc., it would be reasonable to expect that a reasoned response be created instead of plain nastiness. I have to presume that you do not have a reasonable response available.
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The following two paragraphs demonstrate that "8" feels exasperated at the present American system for organizing bicycle traffic. He thinks that the American system is not progressing as fast as he desires toward his ideal of a Dutch system. His own words demonstrate what he claims to be untrue.
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#46
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Cant get too much muddier than this . . .
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#47
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Wow, tough crowd. It is what it is folks. Just another perspective. Not one that claims that the Dutch way is the be all end all.
Hope y'all had a nice weekend. I got some much needed miles in.
Hope y'all had a nice weekend. I got some much needed miles in.
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My critique of your post stands until you can provide me with a quote by me that says I am "exasperated" and my ideal system is the dutch system and I am frustrated with our current system. For the record, I have no problems in my day to day affairs on the bicycle. My posts are frustration with advocacy and individuals who profess to be our advocators. This boorish tete a tete is a perfect example. Time spent on this stuff is time I will never get back, Im done with this nonsense. But, I might ask that in the future, if you feel a need to comment on my posts, comment on what I actually wrote, not what you think I did.
#49
----
Ever heard of Lulemon or REI?
Sporty wear is not "specialized clothing", it is a common USAnian fashion. And I for one prefer the diversity of fashion in the USA to the conformism of northern europe.
Since 40% of dutch people are now overweight, it seems to me that adopting a bit of USAnian style exercise cycling might be a positive thing.
Sporty wear is not "specialized clothing", it is a common USAnian fashion. And I for one prefer the diversity of fashion in the USA to the conformism of northern europe.
Since 40% of dutch people are now overweight, it seems to me that adopting a bit of USAnian style exercise cycling might be a positive thing.
By all means, and since 70% of USAnians are overweight I'm sure we can teach those Dutch a lot about how to don sporty clothes and still get fatter. 12% obesity rate in the Netherlands compared to 36% obesity rate in the US. Yeah, we could teach them a thing or two about how to pack on the pounds as we tell every one else in the world how to get fit.
Last edited by buzzman; 07-02-13 at 08:15 AM.
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Wow, doesn't take much to get the A&S squad agitated.
If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride. What's so hard to understand about that? Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.
I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation and not a weekend activity in the park, biking in the U.S. will continue to be (at least perceived as) a dangerous activity.
If more people cycled in regular clothes on normal bikes, it would get more people to ride. What's so hard to understand about that? Do you put on the lycra and pull out the carbon road bike to go to the supermarket? Of course not.
I think the video hit the major point: until we get the mindset that bikes are a mode of transportation and not a weekend activity in the park, biking in the U.S. will continue to be (at least perceived as) a dangerous activity.