Dutch perspective on cycling in the US
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holland has never really experienced low mode share and has unique geographic, historical, and social reasons behind its cycling obsession. i think we should look toward nations that have managed exponential growth in cycling from the same kind of motorist-centric depths seen in the USA. the dutch model is a historical quirk that has yet to be repeated anywhere else, including denmark.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-04-13 at 07:13 PM.
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You strike me as someone who is quite young, jaywalk3r. I suggest you come visit portland and try riding that 50 lb city bike up larch mountain to understand that common sense argument that pedaleur was making.
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I felt their system of bike infrastructure was well adapted to their environment. In comparison it feels like most areas in the US have made barely an attempt at integrating bikes into our transportation landscape with little or no adaptation to specific environs in the US.
Others have every right to disagree and even prefer alternate models for increasing cycling mode share. In particular, I feel that Germany resembles the US situation far more than Holland. I think the chances of a dramatic increase in USAnian cycling mode share are far more likely if we emulate a nation that has actually gone from low single digit to double digit mode share in the past century or so.
My impression is he was doing just the same. I have no problem with his comparisons just as I have no problem with yours.
#154
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You felt.
Others have every right to disagree and even prefer alternate models for increasing cycling mode share. In particular, I feel that Germany resembles the US situation far more than Holland. I think the chances of a dramatic increase in USAnian cycling mode share are far more likely if we emulate a nation that has actually gone from low single digit to double digit mode share in the past century or so.
I have absolutely no problems with concrete comparisons. Condescension and immature aesthetic judgments, on the other hand, are just rude.
Others have every right to disagree and even prefer alternate models for increasing cycling mode share. In particular, I feel that Germany resembles the US situation far more than Holland. I think the chances of a dramatic increase in USAnian cycling mode share are far more likely if we emulate a nation that has actually gone from low single digit to double digit mode share in the past century or so.
I have absolutely no problems with concrete comparisons. Condescension and immature aesthetic judgments, on the other hand, are just rude.
But I'd love to ride in Germany just to see how blown away I would be since, at least according to you, it is so much better.
Last edited by buzzman; 07-04-13 at 08:10 PM.
#155
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#156
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#157
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Not relevant to my statement.......... my observation was that the Dutch motorists in the videos that I observed, reacted differently to cyclists than American motorists, more likely due to responsibility of a collision defaulting to the larger, heavier vehicle.
#158
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[/COLOR]
The trip in question is not a daily commute. Still, it's a short enough distance that most bicycle commuters should be able to easily pedal it daily without any special precautions. I've known (middle-aged) people who regularly commuted such a distance in jeans. Around here, among bicycle commuters, Lycra is the rare exception.
The trip in question is not a daily commute. Still, it's a short enough distance that most bicycle commuters should be able to easily pedal it daily without any special precautions. I've known (middle-aged) people who regularly commuted such a distance in jeans. Around here, among bicycle commuters, Lycra is the rare exception.
And since you swore off bike specific clothing before even trying them, out of your fear of looking odd in your mind, I see no value in your opinion on this subject.
Since you have no video of your >12% hill climb, how about giving us the map location of this famous climb in Springfield, Missouri.
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#159
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The fact that you think you know all there is about gravity, indicates that you have little to add to this conversation as well.
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#160
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And much greater interest in pushing cyclist off the roadway and onto side paths.
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#161
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To your statement?
I'm asking because I'm genuinely weighing your opinions expressed in this thread against the guy's video. He has ridden both places and expressed his opinion. Are you saying I should more readily accept your opinion even though you haven't ridden both in the US and the Netherlands? And, as has been repeatedly pointed out in the thread the US is extremely varied- in what parts of the US have you ridden in order to form such a strong opinion?
You said:
Originally Posted by dynodonn
I wouldn't take the guy in the video's opinion for any value when comparing cycling in the two countries of today.
Anyone can express an opinion. I'm more interested in your experiences in riding the various infrastructures and how those experiences have shaped your opinions.
#162
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Useful suggestions or pointless criticisms?
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#164
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I haven't had the pleasure of riding German bicycle infrastructure but it must be amazing if you prefer it so vehemently to the Dutch. I only rode in the Netherlands for 3-4 weeks and just never got to the point that I was finding much to criticize. It was just so superior to anything I'd encountered in the US I was too busy making comparisons favorable to the Dutch.
But I'd love to ride in Germany just to see how blown away I would be since, at least according to you, it is so much better.
But I'd love to ride in Germany just to see how blown away I would be since, at least according to you, it is so much better.
The German cycling environment in no way resembles in any fashion the chaotic cycling environment in many (most?) areas in the U.S., either in lack of consideration for cyclists by motorists, or aversion to implementing effective cycling infrastructure throughout a metropolitan area. It is far more like cycling in NL, especially with consideration for integration of the cyclist's needs throughout the transportation network and any cyclist from Germany would feel right at home in NL, and vise versa.
The OP's stated unease/aversion to American cycling environment is rather subdued from what I would expect from most German or Dutch cyclists on encountering U.S. cycling conditions. I think if they were being totally honest and not trying to be so polite to an English speaking audience they might really let forth with both barrels of scorn.
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This is correct. Poor wording on my part: using "difference in" instead of "deviation from" muddied the point.
But it only goes to show that hills will make your ride "harder". It's not about energy per se. Your bike gets back the energy, but your legs don't.
But it only goes to show that hills will make your ride "harder". It's not about energy per se. Your bike gets back the energy, but your legs don't.
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Of course I understand the statement "gravity being a conservative force". Do you understand that we know about as much about gravity right now as the science on the curvature of the earth did during flat earth times.
The fact that you think you know all there is about gravity, indicates that you have little to add to this conversation as well.
The fact that you think you know all there is about gravity, indicates that you have little to add to this conversation as well.
Dude, we know everything we need to know about gravity as it applies to cycling. The expansion of the universe (accelerating or not) will not change how you get up that hill. Neither will the Higgs boson.
Last edited by corvuscorvax; 07-05-13 at 11:48 AM.
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I had the pleasure of riding in Germany for 10 years; from 1986-91 and 1997-2002. I did not observe in any way " ...that Germany resembles the US situation far more than Holland" as reported by our PDX expert on the German cycling environment. I suspect his knowledge of the German cycling environment comes from one (or a few) blog(s)/cherry picked source(s).
Considering that, similar to the USA, German mode share was very low during your time in Germany I have to laugh at your claim that:
The Germany cycling environment in no way resembles in any fashion...
The German love affair with highways and motoring is also very reminiscent of the USA. In fact, I don't think there is a another nation in europe that resembles the USA more in this respect (even the British are nowhere near as car obsessed as USAnians and Germans). Likewise, apart from dense inner city areas, German urban planning and geography resembles the USA far more than it does Holland. Does it resemble some podunk town in the middle of rural Iowa? Absolutely not. But then again most Americans, like most Germans, live in large cities and their suburbs. Indeed, there are many areas in the USA with a distinctly tuetonic feel both in ethnicity and urban lay out. For example, my better half's family speaks German at family gatherings (despite repression during WWII).
Moreover, from a political perspective Germany, like the USA, is far more fiscally conservative than Holland or Denmark. There is simply no political will to spend billions on separated side paths. Despite this Germany has managed enormous growth in cycling while expressly rebelling against and discarding the Dutch model. Moreover, I think the German approach of creating traffic calmed bike boulevards (nothing like the ones in the USA), allowing cyclists full access to the road, and claiming large swathes of space on the road for cyclists is far more politically, socially, and culturally in tune with the USA than the Dutch approach.
aversion to implementing effective cycling infrastructure
The OP's stated unease/aversion to American cycling environment is rather subdued from what I would expect from most German or Dutch cyclists on encountering U.S. cycling conditions.
I think if they were being totally honest and not trying to be so polite to an English speaking audience they might really let forth with both barrels of scorn.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-05-13 at 10:23 AM.
#168
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Can you tell us about your experiences riding on Dutch infrastructure? What didn't you like? You seem to have such a negative reaction to the Dutch infrastructure I am so curious as to what your personal experiences were while riding there that shaped your opinion.
#169
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In reality it is mostly a function of the average power level, length of the period and how much time you spent in your higher power levels, (threshold power and above), that you can only maintain for a minute or two.
I can ride for a couple of hours at 180W and burn 2000, 3000 or more Calories during that ride. This is not hard, I feel no pain and could do the same thing the next day.
I have also done races and interval training rides of only 30 to 60 minutes and having burned between 500-1000 Calories, where I had to recover for a couple of days as my legs were still so sore that I was in pain going up the stairs. This is because the amount of time spent doing 500W-1000W.
All this is very well known and is the reason why metrics exist like Normalized Power, where the variance in Power during the ride is taken into account to give a better indication of how hard a ride was.
Last edited by mr_pedro; 07-05-13 at 12:01 PM.
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Ideologically, I also have an issue with the accommodationist aspects of segregated infrastructure. The goal in North America is often to get cyclists out of the way rather than put them on an equal footing with motorists. Given that motoring in North America is in decline I expect that separation will become less effective in the next few decades, especially in urban areas
Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-05-13 at 11:52 AM.
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The mistake I am reading in what you write is the underlying assumption that difficulty is a mere function of total energy required.
In reality it is mostly a function of how much time you spent in your higher power levels, (threshold power and above), that you can only maintain for a minute or two.
[...]
All this is very well known and is the reason why metrics exist like Normalized Power, where the variance in Power during the ride is taken into account to give a better indication of how hard a ride was.
In reality it is mostly a function of how much time you spent in your higher power levels, (threshold power and above), that you can only maintain for a minute or two.
[...]
All this is very well known and is the reason why metrics exist like Normalized Power, where the variance in Power during the ride is taken into account to give a better indication of how hard a ride was.
None of which, of course, has anything to do with cycling infrastructure in the Netherlands.
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The German love affair with highways and motoring is also very reminiscent of the USA. In fact, I don't think there is a another nation in europe that resembles the USA more in this respect (even the British are nowhere near as car obsessed as USAnians and Germans). Likewise, apart from dense inner city areas, German urban planning and geography resembles the USA far more than it does Holland. Does it resemble some podunk town in the middle of rural Iowa? Absolutely not. But then again most Americans, like most Germans, live in large cities and their suburbs. Indeed, there are many areas in the USA with a distinctly tuetonic feel both in ethnicity and urban lay out. For example, my better half's family speaks German at family gatherings (despite repression during WWII).
Moreover, from a political perspective Germany, like the USA, is far more fiscally conservative than Holland or Denmark. There is simply no political will to spend billions on separated side paths. Despite this Germany has managed enormous growth in cycling while expressly rebelling against and discarding the Dutch model. Moreover, I think the German approach of creating traffic calmed bike boulevards (nothing like the ones in the USA), allowing cyclists full access to the road, and claiming large swathes of space on the road for cyclists is far more politically, socially, and culturally in tune with the USA than the Dutch approach.
The videographer's criticism was far more subdued than your posted reaction to it.
#173
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Right, if both are done at the same constant speed the total amount of work will be the same, but the variations in power required for the hilly loop will make that the harder more painful ride that will leave more soreness.
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We did this same song and dance a few threads back.
6% in the 90s to 17.4% and rising:
https://www.radlhauptstadt.muenchen.de/radlnetz/
Munich and Germany showed similar increases (albeit of slightly less magnitude) but I will let you do the googling.
So maybe you should not have said, and I quote:
Calling the ADFC (Allgemeiner Deutscher Fahrrad-Club) a mere "bicycling club" is beyond silly. And if you cannot accept that their stance on segregated infrastructure and mandatory sidepath use is not representative of many cyclists in Germany then you are simply living in denial (which makes any kind of conversation very boring).
6% in the 90s to 17.4% and rising:
https://www.radlhauptstadt.muenchen.de/radlnetz/
Munich and Germany showed similar increases (albeit of slightly less magnitude) but I will let you do the googling.
Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. Who gives a hoot what language your relatives speak? Love affairs with automobiles? So what?
The German cycling environment in no way resembles in any fashion
Where do you get the idea of German Bicycling Rebellion? Whoud this "rebellion" be similar to a bicycling club somewhere taking a political stand on an a bicycling issue that may be of little concern to most other bicyclists. You are are posting extravagant extrapolations from a tiny bit of information you have gathered from cherry picked blogs.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 07-05-13 at 12:56 PM.
#175
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My experiences are not the issue. I believe a German-style approach is a far likelier path to ~10% cycling mode share in the USA than a Dutch-style approach. Moreover, I also agree with Jan Heine that poorly-designed segregation is worse than no infrastructure at all.
Ideologically, I also have an issue with the accommodationist aspects of segregated infrastructure. The goal in North America is often to get cyclists out of the way rather than put them on an equal footing with motorists. Given that motoring in North America is in decline I expect that separation will become less effective in the next few decades, especially in urban areas
Ideologically, I also have an issue with the accommodationist aspects of segregated infrastructure. The goal in North America is often to get cyclists out of the way rather than put them on an equal footing with motorists. Given that motoring in North America is in decline I expect that separation will become less effective in the next few decades, especially in urban areas
So, what you're saying is that the answer to my question as to whether you've ridden in the Netherlands is, "No."
Maybe it doesn't matter to you but before I attach much significance to your opinions, or anyone else's, I prefer to listen to those with first hand experience on the infrastructures in question. Pardon my skepticism but I'll weigh your opinions based on your lack of experience.