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  1. #26
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    Yikes! Glad you were able to avoid hitting them.

  2. #27
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    I'm probably alone in this definition, but I consider the first driver to have cut Joey off but not really right hooked him. I reserve the term "right hook" for the morons that initiate their turn while they are beside the cyclist.

    I think the problem with the bike lane in the second incident is that it's in the door zone. The driver actually was as close to the parked cars as they normally would would have been before aright turn. Since that didn't extend too far into the door zone, so it wasn't clear he was merging into the bike lane to turn. And, yes, bike lanes are a hazard at intersections.
    Last edited by unterhausen; 07-10-13 at 09:15 AM.

  3. #28
    Senior Member AusTexMurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyJim View Post
    So many vehicles pass going straight near intersections that it is easy to let the one that turns into you get you.

    I don't use a blinking front light. I wonder if you are better off with a steady on front light. Missing turn signals because of the blinkie seems like a problem. I am curious. What do other blinkie users think? Is this a major issue when using a front blinkie?
    I use the blinking flash mode on the front headlight in daylight whenever I am riding in lots or aggressive auto traffic.
    Flashing front is far more important than a rear light during the day, especially for turning traffic, IMO.

  4. #29
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    I have been running the flashing front for nearly a year now. I find it to be incredibly effective alerting motorists, especially crossing traffic, driveways, parallel parkers, etc of my presence BUT the motorist has to give a sh**.

    I also run a Dinotte 300W rear blinkie day and night. It was blinking at the time as well. I'm going to continue blinking. I think it is far better than a steady-on light during bright daylight.
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  5. #30
    Senior Member mr_pedro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squegeeboo View Post
    I feel like for the second one, if he had just merged into the bike lane like he should for a right turn, you'd have been able to move around him no issue, like with the minivan. Instead he slowed down/braked in the 'main' lane and totally screwed you over.
    Where I come from a continuous line marking a bike lane means cars are not allowed to cross it, also not before making a right turn. If a bike lane had a dashed line then the right turning car should have moved over to the right like you described.

    Like in the first encounter with the van. If there would have been more time between the moment that the van moves over and the moment that it starts to break for the corner than it would have been fine and the bike just has to break or go around it.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    Where I come from a continuous line marking a bike lane means cars are not allowed to cross it, also not before making a right turn. If a bike lane had a dashed line then the right turning car should have moved over to the right like you described.

    Like in the first encounter with the van. If there would have been more time between the moment that the van moves over and the moment that it starts to break for the corner than it would have been fine and the bike just has to break or go around it.

    A bike lane (with out a right turn lane to the right of it) is by necessity, also the right turn lane. Just like you wouldn't turn left from a bike lane, across a lane of traffic, a car should not be turning right from the 'main' lane, across a lane of traffic (in this case the bike lane). The bike lane is for forward bikes only and right turning traffic (both bikes and cars), the 'main' lane is for forward cars and left turning traffic (both bikes and cars).
    Last edited by squegeeboo; 07-10-13 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Fixing spelling.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I knew you would love it! My gift to A&S.

    However, giving a turn signal does not me you can just turn no matter what. If I were in that SUV, I would not have done that. Just sayin'.
    I disagree, the SUV had clearly passed you, and signaled the turn. At the time of the right hook, you were passing on the right in the blind spot.

    There are many right hooks when the car partly passes then turns right immediately. But when a cyclist filters up on the right at an intersection (in the blind spot) it's up to him to note if the vehicle is signaling a turn, or even making an unsignaled turn. This kind of thing is all too common, and cyclist filtering up need to be aware.

    (note, in most states passing on the right is illegal).
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  8. #33
    Senior Member mr_pedro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squegeeboo View Post
    A bike lane (with out a right turn lane to the right of it) is by necessity, also the right turn lane. Just like you wouldn't turn left from a bike lane, across a lane of traffic, a car should not be turning right from the 'main' lane, across a lane of traffic (in this case the bike lane). The bike lane is for forward bikes only and right turning traffic (both bikes and cars), the 'main' lane is for forward cars and left turning traffic (both bikes and cars).
    That is at least consistent with the disregard for continuous lines in general. As in switching lanes during a turn or merging onto the freeway before the continuous line turns into a dashed one.

  9. #34
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    Yikes, you may have been "right", however a car will always win that discussion ;-). Thanks for sharing, good reminder.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by squegeeboo View Post
    A bike lane (with out a right turn lane to the right of it) is by necessity, also the right turn lane. Just like you wouldn't turn left from a bike lane, across a lane of traffic, a car should not be turning right from the 'main' lane, across a lane of traffic (in this case the bike lane). The bike lane is for forward bikes only and right turning traffic (both bikes and cars), the 'main' lane is for forward cars and left turning traffic (both bikes and cars).
    Quote Originally Posted by squegeeboo View Post
    I feel like for the second one, if he had just merged into the bike lane like he should for a right turn, you'd have been able to move around him no issue, like with the minivan. Instead he slowed down/braked in the 'main' lane and totally screwed you over.
    Unfortunately the city set that conflict up by dashing too short a section, right at the corner. There should have been an earlier opportunity to merge.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yikes, and you were even in a bike lane!
    Bike lanes do nothing to solve intersection conflicts, and, as in this case, can add confusion and risk.

  12. #37
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    (note, in most states passing on the right is illegal).
    So what you are telling me is the bike LANE really is not a lane at all. And that SUV did not make a right turn from the left lane, signal or no. And if I ride up to the light in MY FRIGGIN' LANE I am passing on the right? If it were an auto lane would I still be passing on the right or just going about my business?

    If proceeding along in "my lane" - marked as such - up to an intersection and I am passing on the right, then the whole bike lane idea is total Bu!!$**t. I should just bike in the auto travel lane and ignore the "imaginary lane" to my right.

    Don't stop now y'all. Please explain how I am passing on the right in my own lane.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member alan s's Avatar
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    This happens to me all the time, and 95% of my commute is on MUPs. I assume cars don't see me, which is usually the case. The other day, a woman pulled out of a parking garage and was staring at her iphone as she pulled into traffic. I had to swerve to avoid her, and she kind of glanced at me like it was no big deal, which to her it wasn't, I guess. Close enough I could have knocked on her window.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    So what you are telling me is the bike LANE really is not a lane at all. And that SUV did not make a right turn from the left lane, signal or no. And if I ride up to the light in MY FRIGGIN' LANE I am passing on the right? If it were an auto lane would I still be passing on the right or just going about my business?

    If proceeding along in "my lane" - marked as such - up to an intersection and I am passing on the right, then the whole bike lane idea is total Bu!!$**t. I should just bike in the auto travel lane and ignore the "imaginary lane" to my right.

    Don't stop now y'all. Please explain how I am passing on the right in my own lane.
    It's your lane, but you're still passing on the right, same as you would be if you were driving a car in the right lane of a 2 lane (4 lane) road. Filtering up when cars are stopped is one thing, but passing a rolling car is different.

    BTW- this is one reason that many (including myself) have issues with bike lanes. They create confusion, with cyclists thinking as you do, that hey can do anything in the bike lane regardless of what's happening out on the road, and drivers making right turns from what is really a left lane (if the bike lane were a car lane), and not knowing if they're supposed to move over first (in some places they are, in others not).

    In any case the rules of the road are one thing and common sense is another. Regardless of the local rules of the road, all users need to be aware of blind spots. The right rear quarter of most vehicles, especially SUVs is a large blind spot, so it's possible to "sneak" up on a driver that way and risk his turning across your path simply because he has no idea you're there.

    Many tractor trailers have signs in the back with warnings not to pass on the right. These apply to everybody who plans on another birthday. Others have signs saying "if you can't see me, I can't see you". This is great advice. If you cannot establish eye contact with the driver, do not pass him on the right (or on the left in left turning lanes).

    Sorry I disageee with you, but stop feeling so entitled, and ride smart. We all have problem encounters, but if you're having much more than average, the problem might not be your fellow road users, but you.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    ..., but stop feeling so entitled, and ride smart. We all have problem encounters, but if you're having much more than average, the problem might not be your fellow road users, but you.
    +1

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by squegeeboo View Post
    A bike lane (with out a right turn lane to the right of it) is by necessity, also the right turn lane. Just like you wouldn't turn left from a bike lane, across a lane of traffic, a car should not be turning right from the 'main' lane, across a lane of traffic (in this case the bike lane). The bike lane is for forward bikes only and right turning traffic (both bikes and cars), the 'main' lane is for forward cars and left turning traffic (both bikes and cars).

    True, but I don't know how else it would work. A merge into the turning lane, regardless of line status (dashed/solid/double) must be safer than just turning across the lane.


    *EDIT*
    Whoops, great work squegee, way to reply to yourself. This was supposed to be to Mr_Pedro's response to me.
    Last edited by squegeeboo; 07-10-13 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Massive fail.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    That's a good point. I am out there in traffic many hours every week, week after week. Things are bound to go wrong sooner or later - like every day. And in my mind i am ALWAYS at fault soon as I toss my leg over a bike and venture out to play with motor vehicles. Everything from the first turn of the pedals is my fault.

    That being said, I did not see the turn signal on the second vehicle. The sun was coming in right over the top of the truck and EVERYTHING was flashing up ahead due to my flashing front light. The vid does not do that justice. What I thought was making me safer [500 watts of white light flashing] was actually fooling me. Even if my eyes saw those pathetic flashers my brain translated the flashing into "just my headlight".

    And all this "passing on the right" jazz. The bike lane is MY lane. That vehicle made a left hand turn from the right hand lane across my lane. That is perfectly legal when all is clear - the bike lane becomes dashed near the intersection for that purpose but it is still THERE dashed or not which means, by law, that is MY lane if I am there. Giving a signal does not make it legal to turn.

    Am I interpreting bike lane ethics incorrectly? Because if I am, bike lanes are just a hazard. Without that lane I would have been keeping up in the flow of traffic and easily passed the truck on the left at their turn.

    Tell me more. You are the safety experts.
    In every state except Oregon, drivers are supposed to treat bike lanes just as another lane and merge into the lane prior to turning. (Oregon requires the turn outside of the BL) And oddly, motorists have no problem using bike lanes as a turn lane when it suits them. (I see it every day)

    Thus the motorist that did the right hook on Joey effectively "cut off" a legal road user. Now that said, we cyclists all realize that motorists do not have a clue about these laws or cyclists or how the motorist is supposed to treat a cyclist as "driver of a vehicle." The move that the truck pulled on Joey would be soundly criticized if the driver had done that to another motor vehicle driver; but since it happened to a cyclist... well the cyclist was "attempting to pass on the right and was in the wrong." We use that latter reasoning because we cyclists know that motorists are NOT going to act in a proper manner.

    Legally the motorist was wrong... but from a safety standpoint, the cyclist has to know that motorists will tend to do wrong things at the wrong time and therefore we must bike in a very defensive manner... that is just the way it is. A LEO would tend to side with the motorist... "well, the driver signaled," so again, reality and what is codified in law are two different things.

  18. #43
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    So what you are telling me is the bike LANE really is not a lane at all. And that SUV did not make a right turn from the left lane, signal or no. And if I ride up to the light in MY FRIGGIN' LANE I am passing on the right? If it were an auto lane would I still be passing on the right or just going about my business?

    If proceeding along in "my lane" - marked as such - up to an intersection and I am passing on the right, then the whole bike lane idea is total Bu!!$**t. I should just bike in the auto travel lane and ignore the "imaginary lane" to my right.

    Don't stop now y'all. Please explain how I am passing on the right in my own lane.
    Joey... the problem is that you were not "passing on the right" but only lawyers and judges are going to argue otherwise. Motorists are supposed merge and turn.

  19. #44
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    It's your lane, but you're still passing on the right, same as you would be if you were driving a car in the right lane of a 2 lane (4 lane) road. Filtering up when cars are stopped is one thing, but passing a rolling car is different.

    BTW- this is one reason that many (including myself) have issues with bike lanes. They create confusion, with cyclists thinking as you do, that hey can do anything in the bike lane regardless of what's happening out on the road, and drivers making right turns from what is really a left lane (if the bike lane were a car lane), and not knowing if they're supposed to move over first (in some places they are, in others not).

    In any case the rules of the road are one thing and common sense is another. Regardless of the local rules of the road, all users need to be aware of blind spots. The right rear quarter of most vehicles, especially SUVs is a large blind spot, so it's possible to "sneak" up on a driver that way and risk his turning across your path simply because he has no idea you're there.

    Many tractor trailers have signs in the back with warnings not to pass on the right. These apply to everybody who plans on another birthday. Others have signs saying "if you can't see me, I can't see you". This is great advice. If you cannot establish eye contact with the driver, do not pass him on the right (or on the left in left turning lanes).

    Sorry I disageee with you, but stop feeling so entitled, and ride smart. We all have problem encounters, but if you're having much more than average, the problem might not be your fellow road users, but you.
    The confusion comes from not teaching motorists how they should act in the presence of cyclists and what a bike lane means. Motorists have no problem using and turning from bike lanes when it suits them, I see it every day.

    The right hook action can happen (and does) when a cyclist takes a lane and rides in the right tire track... motorists will also attempt to drive ahead in a left lane and make a quick turn across the cyclist... I have seen it many times.

    Now that said... we cyclists all know that motorists will do whatever suits them, and thus we have to act very defensively on the road... motor vehicles always win any bike/car battle.

    Oh and regarding blind spots... the motorist came from behind... Joey was in front... the motorist would have to be physically blind to not know the cyclist was there... the driver chose to "race" to the corner and then turn, and of course the cyclist will always lose in such a "race."

  20. #45
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    In every state except Oregon, drivers are supposed to treat bike lanes just as another lane and merge into the lane prior to turning. (Oregon requires the turn outside of the BL) And oddly, motorists have no problem using bike lanes as a turn lane when it suits them. (I see it every day)

    Thus the motorist that did the right hook on Joey effectively "cut off" a legal road user. Now that said, we cyclists all realize that motorists do not have a clue about these laws or cyclists or how the motorist is supposed to treat a cyclist as "driver of a vehicle." The move that the truck pulled on Joey would be soundly criticized if the driver had done that to another motor vehicle driver; but since it happened to a cyclist... well the cyclist was "attempting to pass on the right and was in the wrong." We use that latter reasoning because we cyclists know that motorists are NOT going to act in a proper manner.

    Legally the motorist was wrong... but from a safety standpoint, the cyclist has to know that motorists will tend to do wrong things at the wrong time and therefore we must bike in a very defensive manner... that is just the way it is. A LEO would tend to side with the motorist... "well, the driver signaled," so again, reality and what is codified in law are two different things.
    ^^^This is the kind of discussion I hoped for.

    There are so many things to see in the video. A great opportunity to discuss a lot of points, not just tell me I screwed up (which I already know and acknowledged in the original post).

    My brain saw something that was not reality. It happens to motorists all the time.

    Also, for a little more background - the next intersection has two sets of traffic signals. Half of the vehicles ahead of me are going to turn right at two of the next three corners beyond the one the SUV turned at. Looking at the vid a few times it looks like the driver was deciding if it were better to wait for the red up ahead, then turn right, or short-cut the situation and take the street before the light. There was some hesitation. So perhaps (it's all a blur now) my brain saw the turn signal and ASSUMED that vehicle was about to use the bike lane as a right turn lane for the next intersection, then had second thoughts, then rethought it and hooked in front of me. A "fakie" so to speak.

    I still think my brain interpreted those dim turn signals as my reflected headlight and ignored them. - Yet another safety point to consider.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  21. #46
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    do you see your headlight blinking in the taillights, or is it just the camera that sees that?

    I don't ride on too many bike lanes, and I almost never have the situation where I could pass stopped traffic. I definitely go slow when passing on the right, even though I agree that it's my lane and there is no reason why I should slow down for traffic that is stopped in their lane.

    the only state I know of where passing on the right is illegal is New Jersey, although it's really hard to tell from my recent outings in New Jersey. It's a really stupid law, and when they are enforcing it there are any number of maladjusted new Jerseyites that hang out in the left lane to drive you nuts.
    Last edited by unterhausen; 07-10-13 at 12:06 PM.

  22. #47
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    It's your lane, but you're still passing on the right, same as you would be if you were driving a car in the right lane of a 2 lane (4 lane) road. Filtering up when cars are stopped is one thing, but passing a rolling car is different....
    I respectfully disagree. It's not the same as passing on the right while driving a car, because some jurisdictions explicitly exclude the bicycle in these no-right-passing statutes (which also vary widely depending on the state).

    Additionally a lot of them specify when there are only two lanes, you cannot pass using the right lane. That also would not apply to a bicycle lane. Taken together I think this demonstrates that the intent of the statutes would acknowledge at least a qualitative difference between motor vehicles in regular lanes and bicycles in bike lanes with respect to passing on the right.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    I respectfully disagree. It's not the same as passing on the right while driving a car, because some jurisdictions explicitly exclude the bicycle in these no-right-passing statutes (which also vary widely depending on the state).
    You have to take my post in it's entirety.

    laws vary by state, so neither of us can conclusively say what the law in LA is (or maybe you can).

    Staying alive isn't always a matter of law. Ir's about riding dsmart. The law may be written one way, but unless there's a serious effort to educate drivers it doesn't matter. Looking at the video, it appears that there are dashed lines in the bike lane, which I interpret to mean that right turning drivers should move over and take the (bike) lane as they approach a right turn. that may or may not be the case, but the driver clearly signaled his intent to turn, and it's up to those approaching the right (in the blind spot) to act accordingly.

    As I said, there's law, and there's reality and reality always trumps law. The cemeteries are full of folks who had the right of way.
    Pilots have a saying "there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are on old bold pilots" the same can be said for cyclists.

    The reality is that accidents and near accidents aren't distributed uniformly, some seem to have many more close calls and minor accidents than others, so if you have too many negative encounters, it pays to look in the mirror.
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  24. #49
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    You have to take my post in it's entirety.

    ....
    I agree, no one would deliberately ride like Joey did coming up on that SUV. Even though his regular New Orleans videos frighten me even more than this one, he said and I believe him that he didn't see the turn signal nor other indication of the driver's intention. I just don't think it's altogether fair to say don't pass on the right and that won't happen.

    To me the first right hook situation is even more dangerous than the second, because his maneuver, brake-swerving and zooming around the left is pretty common. But it's rolling the dice. There's a small but real chance that there is no "out" available and starting in that position you might not know what the traffic is that's approaching. What happens when you commit and there's no line of escape - you hit something.

    It also occurred to me that after years of no incidents (and the way he rides), with suddenly two right hooks in one day it's probably not simple random chance. So I hear what you're saying.

  25. #50
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Let's discuss "passing on the right for a moment." The legalities, not the practicalities for cyclists.

    The CA laws are posted below... feel free to post the laws of your state, should there be a significant difference.

    Passing on the Right

    21754. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass to the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

    (a) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.

    (b) Upon a highway within a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles in the direction of travel.

    (c) Upon any highway outside of a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width and clearly marked for two or more lines of moving traffic in the direction of travel.

    (d) Upon a one-way street.

    (e) Upon a highway divided into two roadways where traffic is restricted to one direction upon each of such roadways.

    The provisions of this section shall not relieve the driver of a slow moving vehicle from the duty to drive as closely as practicable to the right hand edge of the roadway.
    Now note that it is legal to pass on the right while in another lane... and it is legal to pass a motorist making a left turn... it is also legal to pass on the right when the lane is sufficiently wide enough to support more than a single vehicle (meaning one does not have to use the shoulder... this is also where the laws may differ from state to state) the restrictions for passing on the right are primarily codified to make it illegal to pass a vehicle on the right in the same lane. So the question comes up... is a bike lane a separate lane, or is the the same lane. The stripe would tend to tell you it is a separate lane. And often the laws for cyclists are slightly different and permit passing on the right anyway.

    Now the bike specific issues... We as cyclists know that passing on the right can and will lead to problems... motorists have blind spots, they don't look for cyclists (legal users of the road) and they tend to ignore bike lanes (except when a driver wants to use that space for his own gain). So regardless of legal code, cyclists have learned that passing on the right can be problematic. It becomes our burden, regardless of the law. Frankly in spite of the laws, I would never pass on the right any vehicle I felt was about to make a right turn... but there are plenty of times when one may assume that a vehicle is going straight and when it would seem that passing on the right is safe... but the fact is any assumption of this type is full of doubt and motorists can make a move to the right without the slightest notice to an approaching cyclist.

    In the case of Joey's situation, the motorist did signal (clearly visible on the video) and should have been aware of the cyclist, but obviously was not, either by choice or due to typical blindness of motorists to cyclists (what I call the Casper effect... only those that believe in cyclists can see cyclists).

    So unless the laws are vastly different in NO, LA, Joey had every right to be there... but as we all know, that can make him "dead right."

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