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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Simply going elsewhere may not always be simple option, especially if you are on foot or bike, and nonsense policies will need to be addressed soon or later.
    .
    If your life is such that you're dependent on late night taco Bell (or any fast food joint) you have my condolences.
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  2. #77
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    I've already found my work around solution to the issue - electric moped (e-bike) and at the speeds that a drive through traffic moves the only reason I turn on the motor instead of just pedaling is if they demand that I prove that it isn't just a regular bike and does actually have an electric motor (that has happened) and I have been refused service because my electric moped wasn't a real moped and I've had to call corporate and then go talk to the manager who even made the employee in question apologize to me. So far though I haven't been able to get them to see the light that serving human power only bicycles represents absolutely zero difference except for the name compared to serving someone on a moped, scooter, or motorcycle.

    Usually in the process of "training" a particular establishment I will go through first several times on one of my hybrid human/gas powered bikes (bicycle with the addition of a very small 25cc helper motor that gets nearly 200-mpg and produces many times less CO2 then a car and no-more and usually less other pollutants as well such as HC, NOx, and CO emissions and that I can actually pedal really well along with the motor unlike most commercial mopeds) with the engine idling and make sure to rev the motor while pulling up to the order board and go through a few times that way until they get used to me (most won't question a gas bike at all with noticeable motor noise) then I switch to one of my electric e-bike and tell them its an electric moped that is human/electric hybrid power just like my other bike(s) is hybrid human/gas powered. And yes indeed once they get used to me going through enough times on an e-bike on a night where I'm on my pedal only bike I have been known to try to sneak through and just not tell them that this one isn't electric and its pedal only and if they don't notice and don't ask I get away with it.

    Using that kind of technique, I can usually get service at my local establishments that have this kind of policy, BUT its the principle of the thing. Legally by state law bicycles are road legal vehicles with all the same privileges and responsibilities as other road users and I don't like being discriminated against and having people treat me like I'm trash and I don't belong and going out of their way to harass me on the public roads. And I don't like the same exact mentality in a private establishments drive through either. I can understand refusing to serve pedestrians at a drive up window - the drive through is for on the go service for people in their vehicles. Bicycles by state law (for my state at least) are vehicles and if they will serve people on motorcycles, scooters, and mopeds there is no excuse for not serving pedal cyclists as well. The risks whether for theft, line-cutting, no-insurance (all types of cycles -motorcycles, scooters, mopeds, trikes, quads etc . . . don't have to have insurance in my state at least and in a lot of other states too) , no-ID-plates (scooters and mopeds under 2-hp/50cc don't have to have license plates in my state and a lot of other places too), or vulnerability in a collision are all the same. As to speed capabilities, if the drive through line is moving so fast that a bicyclist can't keep up with light lazy pedaling that is faster service then I have ever seen anywhere.

    About the only legitimate complaint I can think of is that riders of motorcycles, scooters, and mopeds are in general more likely to realize that the rules of the road apply to them as well then pedal cyclists and there could be a legitimate concern about horse play and night ninja cyclists and all that causing problems - BUT considering the kind of behavior by car drivers including drunk ones shown going through that drive through by the guy who made the video it would be pretty hard to make that argument stick and that isn't even getting into some of the stunts and horse-play motorcycle/scooter/moped drivers pull sometimes.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 07-13-13 at 07:05 PM.

  3. #78
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    If your life is such that you're dependent on late night taco Bell (or any fast food joint) you have my condolences.
    Doesn't have to be Taco Bell or late at night, just want to be able to get the same service provided to someone in a car, no condolences needed.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhedges View Post
    This is interesting, but it doesn't really address the issue. Insurance rates will go up if you have a lot of claims, and if the corporation feels it will have more claims by allowing bikes and pedestrians in their drive thru lines, they aren't being dishonest.
    They definitely were being dishonest since almost all of them claimed that the restriction was due to a requirement from their liability insurance carrier. But the insurance carriers indicated that they had no problem with cyclists using the drive-through. Blaming the policy on the insurance companies was just a quick way to avoid having to justify it.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    They definitely were being dishonest since almost all of them claimed that the restriction was due to a requirement from their liability insurance carrier. But the insurance carriers indicated that they had no problem with cyclists using the drive-through. Blaming the policy on the insurance companies was just a quick way to avoid having to justify it.
    It doesn't have to be dishonesty.

    It's their right to create any policy they want (subject to specific legal limitations). They may see risk of liability exposure, even though it's covered. So when they say insurance or liability concerns are the reason, they may mean that their own damage control efforts are the reason.

    Again, I think it's dumb policy, but I'll defend their right to make it.
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  6. #81
    Wut
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    Its not just taco bell...it is all drive thru places I imagine. This is not a concern to cyclists that eat healthy

  7. #82
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Their right - yes. I'm not arguing for a law that says they can't make such a policy or saying they should have their door beaten down by a SWAT team or go to jail or anything like that. As I have mentioned before, my personal opinion is that even if some business wants to hang a "NO Crackers served here, STAY OUT you white slime" on their door I as a white guy who occasionally manages to catch a slight tan tint by mid-summer but nothing more then that say that they shouldn't be arrested for doing that or have their business shut down or something by big brother government.

    However, I also believe that a civilized society has ever reason to refuse basic services such as police and fire response teams to such an establishment that engages in such policies, and yes I put deliberate knowingly discrimination against operators of human powered road legal vehicles while continuing to serve operators of equivalent motorized vehicles (scooters/mopeds) in a drive through vehicle service window on the same level as that kind of discrimination as to it being a hate based act, may not have as volatile of a history as other forms of discrimination but it comes from the same kind of hatred as far as I am concerned.

    As to giving them a break on taxes as a result of doing a "back at you" refusal of basic public services. Absolutely not, those basic services are a small single digit percentage of the total combined national government budget. They are still getting protection to exercise their own rights (in this case the right to be a total ass on your own property) and you will stay continue to pay your taxes like everyone else because you are getting even more protection of your rights then everyone else because your really pushing them to the limit, but that doesn't mean society can't or shouldn't refuse you some of the basic services in return.

    In most cases that kind of public policy would be enough incentive for that vast majority of people to not make total asses out of themselves and engage in hate based discriminate against other groups of people while still preserving the basic freedoms and not turning government into big brother.

  8. #83
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    As to all drive through restaurants serving junk food - that is a stereotypical blanket statement. There is no reason why quality food cannot be sold by drive through service and is only possible with dine in. Since we are talking about Us-mex type establishment the "Fresh-Mex" model of serving high quality fresh food is by no means incompatible with drive through service. Granted Taco-Bell does not use that model but the discussion in this thread at this point is by no means not limited to them alone.

  9. #84
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wut View Post
    This is not a concern to cyclists that eat healthy
    ......so the rest of us cyclists who have an occasional hankering for a greasy burger, or a flattened hours old taco are just **** out of luck.
    I'm so thankful that our banking drive thrus went automated some 20 years ago, at least they don't care about the mode of travel in which I arrived.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    "They definitely were being dishonest since almost all of them claimed that the restriction was due to a requirement from their liability insurance carrier. But the insurance carriers indicated that they had no problem with cyclists using the drive-through. Blaming the policy on the insurance companies was just a quick way to avoid having to justify it."

    It doesn't have to be dishonesty.

    It's their right to create any policy they want (subject to specific legal limitations). They may see risk of liability exposure, even though it's covered. So when they say insurance or liability concerns are the reason, they may mean that their own damage control efforts are the reason.

    Again, I think it's dumb policy, but I'll defend their right to make it.
    Fine to defend their right to do so, but it certainly is dishonesty when they were asked why they excluded cyclists and they falsely answered that it was due to their insurance carrier when in reality the insurance carrier didn't care and there was nothing in the insurance contract that mentioned anything about restricting cyclists. Of course there was undoubtedly nothing illegal about giving dishonest answers to the writer of the magazine article - but it was still dishonest. If I say that A is the reason for my policy and the reason is really B then I'm being dishonest - even if B is a valid reason.

    Their legal right to discriminate against cyclists at drive-throughs is less clear. Federal law specifies certain protected groups and cyclists are not among them. But state rules are frequently more broad and statutes such as California's Unruh Civil Rights Act have been held to prevent businesses from arbitrarily denying service to people where there isn't any identifiable business justification for the denial even if they aren't in one of the protected groups.
    http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equa...refuse-service
    But I suspect that courts would be reluctant to wade into a dispute about what potential reasons are justifiable and which are arbitrary. So I don't think going to court with a lawsuit is the right strategy.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    Fine to defend their right to do so, but it certainly is dishonesty when they were asked why they excluded cyclists and they falsely answered that it was due to their insurance carrier when in reality the insurance carrier didn't care and there was nothing in the insurance contract that mentioned anything about restricting cyclists. .
    Yes, it they outright laid it off on an insurance company vs. saying it was over potential liability issues, then that's dishonest.

    Unfortunately in so much of our society, no one is willing to take responsibility for decisions. It's easier to lay it off on someone upstairs, or far away or the faceless insurance company, then to open a discussion about the reasoning involved.
    FB
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    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  12. #87
    Senior Member GP's Avatar
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    Must just be big chains. I've gone through the drive-thru at a few local places with no questions.

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