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Old 08-07-13, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Scrodzilla
Cars kill people too. Maybe I should start shooting at them when I feel threatened.
I often think about doing this.
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Old 08-07-13, 07:24 PM
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The advice you are getting about stopping and putting the bike side-ways between you and the dog is correct - spot on.

Unfortunately there are some highly dangerous and aggressive dogs who will continue to attack when you do this, you need to make up your own mind what you are going to do if that happens and how you are going to prepare for it. I personally have, unfortionatly, had to use lethal force against several dangerous vicious dogs while cycling. The first one was a fight for my life with my bear hands when I was a kid with the dog going for the front of my neck, since then I have made myself better prepared.

If you do choose to carry a gun to defend yourself if necessary which is your right then I cannot stress strongly enough the supreme importance of proper training in is effective, safe, and legitimate use and the very careful selection of both caliber and specific ammunition to do the job if necessary with the absolute least potential for collateral damage. Shock Fragmenting premium ammunition similar to what air-martials are issued for use inside air-planes being a decent choice if you can legally obtain it in your state, be warned even before the run on ammo that stuff cost over $100 for a box of only 10 shells but you shouldn't need more then one box for your entire lifetime if you really only shoot if you absolutely have to.

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Old 08-07-13, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Scrodzilla
Cars kill people too. Maybe I should start shooting at them when I feel threatened.
Feel free to shoot when you are attacked, not when youŽre threatened. There might be some issues with carrying, the RPG needed to take out a car wonŽt be comfortable to ride with. If you feel you must, be my guest though, IŽdd like to see a cyclist take out a rogue (sp?) driver.

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Old 08-07-13, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Scrodzilla
Cars kill people too. Maybe I should start shooting at them when I feel threatened.
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
I often think about doing this.

There is a substantial legal difference between shooting a dog that is attacking you and shooting a human that is attacking you (regadless of whether that human is inside a car or not). Dogs aren't people and the law recognizes this, you can be legally justified in shooting a dog that bites you, if on the other hand a human bites you can't shoot them just for biting you. If a person in a car does actually try to intentionally and deliberately murder you using the car as their weapon of choice and you successfully defend yourself against them using a gun then that could be justifiable self defense - it actually happens some times when people try to run over cops with their cars and get shot by the cops when trying to do so. For civilians such cases are very rare, however, most civilians don't have the gun handling skills to successfully defend themselves against someone trying to deliberately run them over with a car. Magnify this by a 1,000 times if it is a sneak attack which is often the case when people use their cars as weapons to attack cyclists. With a dog on the other hand, who is aggressively attacking you and chewing on you or your bike trying to get through the bike to you when you are using the bike as a shield between you and the dog that's a point blank range target which doesn't have immediate lethal capability if you protect your neck and you do have some time to use a weapon (any weapon - mace, stick, bike pump, etc . . . ) to stop the attack. Getting run down by a car can be lethal or at the very least render you unable to fight back within micro-seconds, it would take one hell of a dog to do that.


Add On for Post made while I was writing this one:

Yes, a projectile weapon capable of actually stopping an attacking car and not just taking out the driver and hoping that stops the car would be rather difficult to easily carry on a bike ~ RPG would probably be a decent choice but you would have to be riding your bike in on of the few hell holes on this planet where you can get away with riding around on a bike with an RPG without at the very least getting yourself in really big trouble for riding around on a bike with an RPG.

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Old 08-07-13, 08:06 PM
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I've been a dog owner all my life, and I've never had a serious issue with a dog attacking me, but to make blanket statements about how to handle dogs is like making blanket statements about how to handle people. Most people, and dogs, probably 99.9% do not actually mean you any harm. The dogs just want to chase you, and wouldn't know what to if they caught you. However, there is that tiny .01%, be they people or dogs, that DO mean you harm.

This is an incident I recall from a couple years ago, not a cyclist, but the classic mailman vs dog. Read the article. This mail carrier was 6 foot 3", 300 lbs, and he thought he was going to die. If he cannot pull off the Alpha male routine, you're not going to either.

https://www.startribune.com/local/min.../99473224.html

Pit bulls are unbelievably strong. Pound for pound, pit bulls are much stronger than labs or shepherds. And dogs in packs can behave much differently than a single dog ever would.
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Old 08-07-13, 08:24 PM
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What loky1179 said above is very true guys (and gals). The vast majority of the times I've had to use force against a dog (usually not lethal force, that is the last resort) has been to defend my live-stock. The few times I've had to defend myself and once another person from a dog are the extreme minority and all of them were dogs that were taught by their owners to be vicious. Bad dogs are like bad kids, very few of them are truly bad seeds that are bad in and of their own, most of them have bad owners/parents any bread of dog can be made vicious by a bad owner but usually people who are of that bent choose breeds that are more dangerous and more easily made vicious just like their owners.

I'm no Bible thumper but some of the ancient laws of long ago that weren't religious in nature but civil and criminal made a whole lot more sense then our current laws including some of the ancient Hebrews, if I may quote one:

Originally Posted by NAS Bible Exodus 21:28-29
If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.
I think you get the principle of the thing that several thousand year old law was trying to put forth. I really wish that when it came to dangerous vicious aggressive dogs they would apply that same kind of logic today.
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Old 08-07-13, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo1889
I think you get the principle of the thing that several thousand year old law was trying to put forth. I really wish that when it came to dangerous vicious aggressive dogs they would apply that same kind of logic today.
Perhaps it will get better, at least in England: A proposal for a new law that will make the owners of the dogs accountable for their behavior:

Ten years in prison if your dog attacks someone, life in prison if your dog kills someone:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-8747577.html
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Old 08-08-13, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Scrodzilla
I can't even believe there's discussion about carrying guns to shoot at dogs. It's ****ing disgusting.

Want to know what I did the last time I was chased by a dog? I stopped and began to pet it.
What's disgusting is that there are scumbag dog owners who let their animals chase other people. The person being chased has no way of knowing whether the dog is playful or aggressive, whether it will bite or roll over and play, and that's even assuming the person wants to play at all. Many people don't like dogs, so to assume that everybody loves your dog as much as you do is presumptuous at best.

If I'm chased by a dog I have precisely zero interest in finding out if it's friendly or not. If you don't want your dog kicked in the head keep it on the lead or supervise it closely enough it doesn't harass other people. If your dog jumps up at me more than once when I'm on foot I'll punch it in the head too. Done that a few times. One dog was half asphyxiated as I dragged it by its collar back to its owners who clearly weren't paying the blindest bit of attention to what their animal was doing.
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Old 08-08-13, 04:20 AM
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I happen to like dogs and have two here at the house. My dogs are trained and well behaved so I don't intend to put up with anyone else dog acting up. If you love it, train it and control it. Otherwise don't be upset when I shoot it for attacking me. I can handle some chasing and growling but anything beyond that calls for self defense measures. I have been bitten by a dog when I didn't even know it was behind me and if it happens again there will retaliation.
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Old 08-08-13, 07:08 AM
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Dogs that attack people should be shot!
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Old 08-08-13, 07:30 AM
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Pepper spray, I've had too many problems with dogs. Pepper spray works well
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Old 08-08-13, 10:08 AM
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My tactics (depending in dog/s and circumstances):

1- THE COMMANDO DEFENSE- a sharp, loud command of, "NO!"or "Stay!". Volume and timing are critical here. OR For the dog that is running towards me with a combination of barking and a wagging tail and has the look of a "family dog" but is stimulated to chase then I start with "Good dog!" "Atta boy!" "Come on!" if that fails I immediately switch to the first option.

2- THE WATER BOTTLE DEFENSE - a well timed spray to the face of a dog will at least slow them down or stop them. Several sprays may be necessary as you keep riding away.


3- THE SPRINT DEFENSE- this used to be my first and only option but it really doesn't solve the problem unless you're really fit and can get the bike up to 30 mph+ under virtually any circumstance. It's tough uphill, on tour with luggage, on dirt roads and the worse part is it actually stimulates many dogs into a highly aggressive mode and, if you fail, you've got a supercharged dog to deal with and no other options but a fight. It also sucks for dogs that you have to pass every day because now they think of you as a prey and will go for you aggressively every time you pass. Works good for day rides or tours where you've got an obvious advantage speed wise and will never see the dog again.

4- SPRAY REPELLENTS- I've used "Halt!" Spray, which is effective on all but the most aggressive dogs but in truth the water bottle works just as well most of the time. But this saves your water bottle for drinking. Pepper spray's downsides are cost, you can use it up on one or two dogs, it can clog and you need pretty good aim. THE COST EFFECTIVE ALTERNATIVE- make your own. Go to the local dollar store and buy some bottles of hot pepper sauce, a jar of cayenne, white vinegar and lemon juice (delicious, right?). Take an empty liquid dishsoap container (the smaller 9 oz. container works best) and mix your ingredients. Carry it in a jersey pocket or in an easily accessible place in a front bag- keep a stash fermenting at home and refill when necessary.






2
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Old 08-08-13, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by turbo1889
What loky1179 said above is very true guys (and gals). The vast majority of the times I've had to use force against a dog (usually not lethal force, that is the last resort) has been to defend my live-stock. The few times I've had to defend myself and once another person from a dog are the extreme minority and all of them were dogs that were taught by their owners to be vicious. Bad dogs are like bad kids, very few of them are truly bad seeds that are bad in and of their own, most of them have bad owners/parents any bread of dog can be made vicious by a bad owner but usually people who are of that bent choose breeds that are more dangerous and more easily made vicious just like their owners.

I'm no Bible thumper but some of the ancient laws of long ago that weren't religious in nature but civil and criminal made a whole lot more sense then our current laws including some of the ancient Hebrews, if I may quote one:



I think you get the principle of the thing that several thousand year old law was trying to put forth. I really wish that when it came to dangerous vicious aggressive dogs they would apply that same kind of logic today.
Bolding mine.

That tendency seems to run in cultural pockets. I've never had problems. But I can make some good guesses about places near enough to ride to where I would.

I have even had to go past a pack of at least half feral dogs without problems. Half feral, but not half starving.
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Old 08-08-13, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by EpicSchwinn
Wow, what a trip!

Yeah I think the alpha dog advice is pretty good because when it comes down to it, if a dog actually gets you off the bike and attacks you, it doesn't take the hulk to hurt it back. That said, a full size diesel pickup roaring down the street puts no fear in the heart of my miniature dachshund and he will attack it relentlessly. Commanding respect can be easier said than done.
You'd be surprised. If you just try to sprint away, you're prey. If you take control of the situation, you're respected by the dog. They don't even have to accept you as alpha, they just need to realize you're human and they back off.
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Old 08-08-13, 12:17 PM
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I had one dog chase me in the countryside last Saturday. He was fat and out of shape so it wasn't a big deal. I wouldn't doubt that he takes a wrong angle one time and gets under the wheel of a fast moving car or truck; or more likely gets hit by a second car after he stops chasing the first. If he would have gotten close to nip at my heals, I'd have tried to boot him in the snout and yell.

What to do about all the rabbits and deer, though. I almost ran over 3 rabbits this morning. They seem so wait to dart in front of you. I went by a deer on the MUP last month that was close enough I could have reached out and slapped it in the head. There were two in a similar spot this morning.

Slowing to shoot at rabbits and deer would significantly reduce my average segment times. Plus, I'd need a .22 pistol and .270 hunting rifle. What to do? What to do?
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Old 08-08-13, 01:07 PM
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Stray dogs only get one shot at me.....Then they meet Buck.

I'm not a mobile dog trainer.....

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Old 08-08-13, 01:09 PM
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The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
Crusing down the MUP the other night, on my 29r SS, just being one with nature, A came across a couple with stary eyes, and a lillte powder puff dog, un-leashed. I give a friendly warning so they can get hreir feet back on the ground, and slow way down. The guy tries to get the dog, but the little thing had other idea, like trying to sniff the under side of my tire. I was still clipped in and almost stopped when it turned away. A few more inches, and I would have rolled right over it, or gone into the river(not gonna happen). I would have been very upset if I hurt that little dog. Stupid people.
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Old 08-08-13, 02:28 PM
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On trails, it's fun to lead the dog on a massive chase, so (hopefully) he'll end up miles from his moronic owner, who will have to scour the woods for ages just to find Fido. One time, I was lucky enough to run into (presumably) the dog's owner, who asked if I'd seen a dog. My reply: "yeah; go eff yourself."
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Old 08-08-13, 02:33 PM
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I used to ride with a friend that carried ammonia and water in a spray bottle. One shot in the snout and the dogs never chased us again. The next time one came running and recognized us, he stopped so fast he went head-over-heels and we rode up the road at our usual pace.
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Old 08-08-13, 03:59 PM
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While I don't personally own a gun, I will appreciate it if other people kill bike chasing dogs, as that's one less dog that'll be likely to chase me.
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Old 08-08-13, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by surreal
On trails, it's fun to lead the dog on a massive chase, so (hopefully) he'll end up miles from his moronic owner, who will have to scour the woods for ages just to find Fido. One time, I was lucky enough to run into (presumably) the dog's owner, who asked if I'd seen a dog. My reply: "yeah; go eff yourself."
A guy I loosely know got sick of dogs jumping up at him and putting their muddy paws over his trousers. One day he picked up a dog, threw it over a four-foot chain link fence, and told the owners that if they'd kept it under control they wouldn't be left trying to figure out how to get it back.
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Old 08-09-13, 07:40 AM
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I'm a cyclist, and I have dogs. Both of my dogs are Australian Shepherds, they have a strong herding instinct, and one of them is big enough that she can intimidate people who have a pre-existing aversion to dogs (43 pounds). My dogs aren't allowed out of the yard off-leash (or unsupervised), and when we walk them on a MUP they're kept on a short leash - they will look like they are trying to chase cyclists. They're not hunting, they're herding, and I would be devastated if someone was violent against my dog because they mistook her herding instinct for aggression.

That's unlikely to happen as you won't see my dogs off leash anywhere except 3 local parks where they are allowed to be off leash.

As a dog owner the only time I have an issue with my fellow cyclists is when they ride their bikes on foot paths where they're not supposed to be. One of the parks I frequent has mountain bike trails and walking trails, and people will sometimes ride their bikes on the walking trails. I'm not expecting you, my dogs aren't expecting you. If you suddenly come around corner on a foot path at speed, and take offense to my dogs barking at you, you're an idiot (and we're going to have a big problem if you lay a hand on my dogs).

If my dog did somehow manage to run away from home (won't happen, Australian Shepherds are called Velcro-dogs for a reason), and was running along with bikes, I wouldn't judge a cyclist too harshly if she came home with a cleat mark. All the gun talk is a bit over the top, though.

Not to diminish the experience of those who have actually been attacked, or disuade you from trying to defend yourself where it's warranted, it just seems like there is probably a lot fewer genuinely viscious dogs out there than we think (but I'd agree that there is no shortage of irresponsible dog owners), and more frequently than not chasing behaviour is playing, not attacking.
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Old 08-09-13, 07:42 AM
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I ride a recumbent trike which makes me specially vulnerable, being so close to the ground and awkward to get up off, given the necessity of first setting the brakes and then heaving myself up and then lifting a long, awkward, heavy machine off the ground to put it between me and the dog. Also, they don't make jerseys for recumbent riders so I don't have any front pockets in which to carry pepper spray and my water bottle is not accessible from where I sit, since the front bottle holder has a GPS in it. I would have to hang a pouch around my neck to carry either spray or a gun. Yesterday, for the first time, a dog came at me. I stopped and yelled "no" and "get outta here" a couple of times, and that did the trick. But I recognize that if an abused pit bull came after me, that would be a life threatening situation. Fortunately, on my usual ride, the aforementioned was the only dog incident I've experienced. However, years ago when I rode a DF a dog came after me. I yelled to its owner who was sitting on his porch to get his dog and instead he urged the dog on. I stopped and walked the bike until I was far enough away and then I went to the state police to report him. Apparently, he and his relatives were known bad guys, but I was cautioned that he would learn my name if I brought charges. I decided it wasn't worth having my house burned down, so I never rode that route again.

My next door neighbor had a pack of unfenced dogs. Cyclists sped by downhill before the dogs could get started going after them and others avoided walking their dogs on that road. I decided to have it out, so I bought an electric cattle prod and walked my dog past the house. The dogs came out and surrounded me and my dog and my dog wrapped the leash around my legs and things were getting hairy when the owner came out and got them away. At that point I notified the local animal control officer and he said I'd need photographic proof that her dogs were off her property and not leashed. I managed to get that photo at another time and they were due in court with a large fine. I offered a deal. If they would put up a fence, I'd drop the charges. One day before the court appearance she and a bunch of her redneck friends built a fenced enclosure and that was the end of that.
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Old 08-10-13, 04:34 AM
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This happened over about a mile. I have been bitten while riding. I usually use water bottle and shout and carry Halt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcJJbRflm9Y
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Old 08-23-13, 09:46 PM
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I mostly love dogs more than people. I've been around them for more than 70 years and believe that I understand them pretty well. They, like us, are of all-sorts and normally respond to alpha behavior on my part. But, sometimes they need a more immediate instruction.

There is nothing better than pepper spray. I always have a can of foam-type spray at hand when I ride, or walk for that matter. Either in my pocket (walking) or sticking out of the top tube bag just behind the headset on my bike. The foam spray squirts a directional stream that does not splatter; it also pentrates wind. It does no permanent damage yet can stop a charging Grizzly in its tracks.

Water works, when the dog is not really violent. Vinegar or ammonia in water (three parts water) is better. Vinegar does no permanent damage; I am not sure about ammonia.

I've had violent dogs attempt to attack me: I kicked one, got him really good, and he would thereafter run to and stay on his porch when I rode by. I gave the other two a snootful of pepper spray. One of them was an extremely aggressive pit bull with an equally violent owner who then also attacked -- got the same treatment and a visit by the sheriff. I never went by that house again and learned a few months later that the man had shot himself to death. Poor dog. I also learned that the other dog I sprayed never chased another bicycle LOL

Pepper spray works and does no long-term harm. My county's sheriff's department (and most police I suspect) prefers that you use pepper spray over a gun (Duh); when I called them about the guy and his pit bull and told the deputy what I had done, he said, "Right On!"

On the other hand: A dog who chases while wagging his tail is playing. But, look out for bared fangs (the lips are pulled back), stiff tail and raised hackles (the back hair behind the neck) -- you can shoot that one for all I care, that is a ruined dog and children may be at risk.

In the summer '59 I had to shoot a dog, the only time I've ever personally killed one. I was 17 years old and hunting rabbits (yes we ate them) in the desert near Alamogordo NM when I ran upon a pack of feral dogs. They were clearly a family and I think they might have been Labrador Retrievers. There were nine of them, three were maybe six months old. They were running like coyotes do when hunting. They turned toward me and started to run faster. Their intentions seemed clear to me and it was not to play. I fired into the sand in front of them twice -- didn't change a thing. So, I picked the Alpha and shot him. It was a head shot and he dropped like a stone. The others stopped, milled around a bit and, when I fired into the sand close to them a couple more times, they took off -- as did I!
Told the warden and sheriff's office. They baited and killed the rest of the pack. Kinda wished I hadn't said anything, but -- it coulda' been a kid.

And, well, damn the ignorant, stupid or twisted people who don't take responsibility for their animals. I've never seen a 'bad' dog that wasn't made that way by one of these creatures.

Joe
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