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  1. #51
    Senior Member bikemig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    Two things come to mind here. First cell phones have a gps chip in them. They should be programed to shut off the cell phone if moving faster than 10 mph. Second barring the first suggestion, ANYONE causing a accident because they were on their cell phone should AUTOMATICALLY lose their drivers license for 6 months. No whining defense att or liberal judge or jury could get them out of that. People that do not act responsibly need to be slapped down hard!!!!
    Great ideas; I like this.

  2. #52
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    Huh, waddaya know. I'm using a Kyocera K9, released in 2004. Apparently it does have GPS. It certainly wasn't billed as having GPS. I turn the location data off on any phone I use. Not sure if calling 911 overrides that or not, probably I guess, but regardless we're not talking about calling 911 here.

    The battery works fine BTW. You can get new batteries for any phone off ebay for $5.

    I also have a smartphone paid for by work. GPS disabled there as well.
    GPS or not, the cell network knows where you are within a much larger radii... and certainly the system knows when you are moving due to hand offs from cell to cell. So yes, the phone knows when it is moving, and records can be analyzed to determine if a user was on the phone at the time a phone is moving.

    GPS only gives finer granularity; IE more precision. If you call 911, the GPS location is automatic and over rides being disabled. The idea is that if you call 911, it is an emergency, and you WANT to be found. In fact if you call 911 (don't do this...) your phone will lock up with an E911 screen that you have to clear to use the phone in a non-emergency manner.

    FYI there are also different forms of GPS location for cell phones... some involving the network doing all the heavy lifting (these generally do not give the user a position location) and some involve the phone doing the heavy lifting (smart phones with active maps).

    Disabling GPS really does nothing more than save a bit of battery power... THEY know where you are.

  3. #53
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bykemike View Post
    :
    "In my recollection, average cars were biggest back in the the late 50s and 60s. The avg today is way smaller. ."


    From onlyinfograpfic.com ..


    As the design of vehicles has evolved over the years, so has their sizes. Modern cars have inevitably grown longer, taller and wider over the years, thanks to the introduction of new technology and safety requirements. For most cars this growth is significant; for others it’s borderline astounding. We’d be quick to say that today’s automobiles are safer, faster and more comfortable than ever, so it should be no surprise that they’re bigger, but we would have never thought they’d be this much bigger. Draw a before-and-after comparison, and the last several decades reveal quite the spurt of growth in our favorite automobiles.


    Cars now are huge, sheesh, even the Mini is way larger than the original mini.

    Street riding in my state requires devotion and a well developed sense of denial.
    Another thing not considered is power to weight ratio... the cars of old were heavy tanks... sure they had big engines, but only the most powerful muscle cars had decent power to weight ratio... lighter materials are used today to give a better P/W ratio for faster acceleration of even non muscle type vehicles today.

  4. #54
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    You've hit on my main issue.

    So where do the texters feel most comfortable downloading ring tones or whatever and not paying attention to their driving? On the back streets, mainly very lightly traveled.
    Your OP stated that it was [only] your assumption that the car accident was caused by a driver paying attention to a cell phone; prompting the typical tirade knee jerk response about the danger to cyclists from cell phone users without any regard to what is known about this accident

    Two hours later you are adding your response of the evils of texters. What did you learn that substantiated your assumption that cell phone use was the cause or contributed to the collision?

    There is another thread on A&S right now following the same pattern, someone posts an assumption or guess that an accident was caused by a cell phone use or texter and the next or so poster posts as if it is a given that "cell phones" was the cause of the accident as well as being a catastrophic risk to cyclists (often with no distinction between having a conversation and eyes off the road texting); and the hysteria gathers speed as it rolls down hill.

    Recommend that the mods create a sticky where people could post all the anecdotes, truth as is "known" by posters, guesswork, assumptions, conjecture and occasional facts about the danger of cell phone use by motorists, cyclists and/or pedestrians. Might even include all accidents where it is known that cell phone use was the cause of cyclist injury/fatality.

    Recommend that if the posts are rants in general about cell phone use without bicycling content that the posts be sent to Foo or P&R.

  5. #55
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    I could not agree more with all of you, but it is not just all cellphones and cellphone users at fault.

    My loved grandmother/nicest person to me EVER was nearly killed and put in the hospital to only die shortly afterwards, of the injuries caused by the accident. The accident happened because a nursery employee (could have been not a legal citizen of The USA- not to blame him or her if so, too add blame to the nursery owners) left the large nursery truck halfway on the most used road, of my community, with no lights on, in the middle of the night. My grandparents (then 80s) were coming home from a family birthday party, you know how some older people leave parties early, and thus they were by themselves.

    You know the problems we (not just my community's bicyclist) have is that the roads are built to standards and even some are built to previous standards or dirt roadways and Etc. are not applicable to the standards and the standards are that Ag. Vehicles (especially CMIs, those huge tractors and such vehicles <which should be parked and loading their packages on smaller vehicles to transport or put on trailers, in our community) are just too large for the lanes and when they are not driving the park on the roadways. I have had argument with CMI drivers, because they think they own the roadways, parked and driving; and our non-emergency police and State/County/City Governments are sick of having to deal with it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    My neighbor's legally parked car was just rear ended and pushed about 50 feet forward. I can only assume the woman who hit it was paying more attention to her cell phone than she was to her driving. I've had 2 internet bicycling acquaintances who have been killed by similar un-attentive drivers.

    My worst bicycling injuries have all happened on car-free trails. I understand that frequency vs. severity issue. But I'm thinking a lick that's hard enough to push a parked Buick 50 feet would definitely seriously injure or even kill a cyclist and there's really no defense or precaution for that.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Your OP stated that it was [only] your assumption that the car accident was caused by a driver paying attention to a cell phone; prompting the typical tirade knee jerk response about the danger to cyclists from cell phone users without any regard to what is known about this accident

    Two hours later you are adding your response of the evils of texters. What did you learn that substantiated your assumption that cell phone use was the cause or contributed to the collision?

    There is another thread on A&S right now following the same pattern, someone posts an assumption or guess that an accident was caused by a cell phone use or texter and the next or so poster posts as if it is a given that "cell phones" was the cause of the accident as well as being a catastrophic risk to cyclists (often with no distinction between having a conversation and eyes off the road texting); and the hysteria gathers speed as it rolls down hill.

    Recommend that the mods create a sticky where people could post all the anecdotes, truth as is "known" by posters, guesswork, assumptions, conjecture and occasional facts about the danger of cell phone use by motorists, cyclists and/or pedestrians. Might even include all accidents where it is known that cell phone use was the cause of cyclist injury/fatality.

    Recommend that if the posts are rants in general about cell phone use without bicycling content that the posts be sent to Foo or P&R.
    How about leaving 50+ posts in 50+?

    I originally posted in 50+ because I wanted to avoid argument just for the sake of argument. It doesn't really matter why the woman ran into a parked car on a clear morning with no traffic. The incident definitely spooked me enough that, in the light of having had 2 acquaintances killed in similar incidents, I'm rethinking my bicycling practices. I think my original post was pretty clear about that.

    Now tell me, what does your attack on me add to the data?

  7. #57
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Doesn't change my mind. I will still 'take the lane' in heavy traffic. But I won't ride 'ninja-style', or wear attire that will make me so invisible, that I could be riding like a ninja while riding the same direction as the flow of the traffic.

  8. #58
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    I have put my bikes away and I don't know if I will ride them again.

    Why?!?!

    My job has me on the road for 40 hours every week. I am witnessing a terrifying level of driver ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, and inattentiveness. The results are starting to resemble those of a massacre. The surviving offenders are punished by having their license taken away, but they keep their cars. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, the car still drives without that little piece of paper otherwise known as a license and the stupidity level just grows and grows.

    You can all go out there on your 20 pound bikes and play chicken with SUV's driven by inconsiderate idiots if you want, but I think I'll pass.

  9. #59
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredschwinn View Post
    I have put my bikes away and I don't know if I will ride them again.

    Why?!?!

    My job has me on the road for 40 hours every week. I am witnessing a terrifying level of driver ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, and inattentiveness. The results are starting to resemble those of a massacre. The surviving offenders are punished by having their license taken away, but they keep their cars. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, the car still drives without that little piece of paper otherwise known as a license and the stupidity level just grows and grows.

    You can all go out there on your 20 pound bikes and play chicken with SUV's driven by inconsiderate idiots if you want, but I think I'll pass.
    Do those idiotic drivers always remain on the carriageway when they cause an accident? Will they never hit pedestrians who are legally on the sidewalk? Is the risk greater on a cyclist riding in the street than on a pedestrian walking on the sidewalk?
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredschwinn View Post

    You can all go out there on your 20 pound bikes and play chicken with SUV's driven by inconsiderate idiots if you want, but I think I'll pass.
    I hope you pass safely.

  11. #61
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredschwinn View Post
    I have put my bikes away and I don't know if I will ride them again.

    Why?!?!

    My job has me on the road for 40 hours every week. I am witnessing a terrifying level of driver ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, and inattentiveness. The results are starting to resemble those of a massacre. The surviving offenders are punished by having their license taken away, but they keep their cars. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, the car still drives without that little piece of paper otherwise known as a license and the stupidity level just grows and grows.

    You can all go out there on your 20 pound bikes and play chicken with SUV's driven by inconsiderate idiots if you want, but I think I'll pass.
    You can call it 'playing chicken', all you want. But I am still going to 'take the lane', even in heavy traffic.
    Last edited by Chris516; 09-23-13 at 10:32 PM.

  12. #62
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Now tell me, what does your attack on me add to the data?
    Attack on you? What are you talking about? I merely pointed out the fact that you and many others changed the focus immediately from a non bicycle related and unknown cause incident to fantastic levels of conjecture about a cell phone connection to this accident as well as who knows how many other cycling accidents.

  13. #63
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    Lincoln has approx 125 miles of hard surface bike trails. I mainly ride them, altho I ride some residential streets. I am not a head down fully kitted roadie. Far from it since I ride primarly for exercise and pleasure.

    That said when I do ride the back streets, I watch any car as an unattentive idiot that is out to get me. There is no reason for a cyclist to avoid city streets if you ride smart.

  14. #64
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Can we go back to the beginning?

    The thread title was "Rethinking riding on the street." The body of my original post said why I was rethinking that including being honest about suppositions I had made. My intention was to share my feelings with a group of folks whose opinions I've come to know and respect. That's all that I wanted to do.

    First some moderator decides it didn't specifically impact 50+ riders enough so it gets moved to A&S. Then I get a poster who insinuated that my friends who were run down from the rear must have been stupid in some way. Finally I get a poster who turns the focus to cell phone usage rather than concern about being run down on the street, and who suggests the thread be moved to Foo or P&R. I should probably mention the 2 women who were run down and killed in Conn. too.

    All-in-all, this has been a pretty depressing experience.

  15. #65
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Can we go back to the beginning?
    Is that where you made your assumption that this car on car collision was a cell phone related incident?

  16. #66
    "Per Ardua ad Surly" nelson249's Avatar
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    Most of the cycling incidents around here, at least according to the local police force, are the result of cyclists coming onto crosswalks at intersections or getting nailed on the sidewalk at drive ways. Over all in 77 percent of cases in my region, the cyclist was at fault in a collision with a motor vehicle. In the last 2-3 years there have been perhaps four incidents where a cyclist was struck from behind by a vehicle. Each of these events was reported on the local media extensively and has served to exaggerate the dangers of cycling. Fear mongering is what passes for journalism these days does best.
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  17. #67
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelson249 View Post
    Fear mongering is what passes for journalism these days does best.
    Fear mongering is what passes for bicycling advocacy and bicycling safety advice if numerous A&S postings are any indication.

  18. #68
    "Per Ardua ad Surly" nelson249's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Fear mongering is what passes for bicycling advocacy and bicycling safety advice if numerous A&S postings are any indication.
    Sadly this is true too.
    1997 Mongoose Hilltopper, 1988 Bianchi Specialissima, 2006 Surly Cross-Check, 2010 Norco City Glide, 1947 CCM Single-speed.

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  19. #69
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    This could all stop but no one wants to do what needs to be done, simply lock all phones from usage once the phone's gps detects a speed greater than 15 mph and lower than 250, anything above 250 the phone would reactivate. This can be done, some police departments are doing this currently with their on board computer systems because of high degree of crashes, if they want info while driving they have to request it the old school way...by radio.

  20. #70
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    This could all stop but no one wants to do what needs to be done, simply lock all phones from usage once the phone's gps detects a speed greater than 15 mph and lower than 250, anything above 250 the phone would reactivate. This can be done, some police departments are doing this currently with their on board computer systems because of high degree of crashes, if they want info while driving they have to request it the old school way...by radio.
    Passengers? Bus/train riders?
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  21. #71
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    Passengers? Bus/train riders?
    Who cares! your ability to communicate trumps the safety of others? comeon man.

  22. #72
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Three things determine your fate out there.

    1. Luck
    2. Statistics (or rather, the real probability of any given thing to happen)
    3. Your skill

    3. You have control over your skill.

    2. Armed with statistics, you can make informed choices. You're safer on a bike than in a motor vehicle in most situations. We think of the worst that can happen to us while we're on a bike, and it's pretty gruesome, but it doesn't happen all that often when you look at the big picture.

    1. You can't control your luck. But I've learned some good traffic skills, good enough to teach them. I've been riding in traffic since 1975, and I'm still alive. Riding my bike might kill me, but chances are, it won't.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
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    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  23. #73
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    Who cares! your ability to communicate trumps the safety of others? comeon man.
    I don't understand your logic here. How would it trump the safety of others if you use your cellphone when you're a passenger, or on the bus?
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

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    Are any minds being changed by this thread?

    Is anything new about distracted drivers or pedestrians being expressed?

    My experience is that absent any positive action on my part I would have been hit by distracted pedestrians, cyclists or motor vehicle operators. I suspect that is the case continent, or maybe even hemisphere, wide.

    Unless someone has a workable solution as opposed to just another rant maybe it would be best to let the matter rest.

  25. #75
    Senior Member rekmeyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    I don't understand your logic here. How would it trump the safety of others if you use your cellphone when you're a passenger, or on the bus?
    See, it's your logic that isn't being rational. If phones shut off at 15 mph the safety of others who drive motor vehicles will improve, but you don't care, you would rather see people get hurt and die so you can use your phone on a train or bus, of course your real intent in mentioning that is to use it while driving a motor vehicle but your trying to make a convincing argument that frankly fails.

    Now if the phone companies can come up with a way of determining if the phone is in motor vehicle vs a train fine but until then use the technology at hand and shut the damn things off.

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