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  1. #76
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    See, it's your logic that isn't being rational. If phones shut off at 15 mph the safety of others who drive motor vehicles will improve, but you don't care, you would rather see people get hurt and die so you can use your phone on a train or bus, of course your real intent in mentioning that is to use it while driving a motor vehicle but your trying to make a convincing argument that frankly fails.

    Now if the phone companies can come up with a way of determining if the phone is in motor vehicle vs a train fine but until then use the technology at hand and shut the damn things off.
    I never use my cellphone while driving, but you can assume anything you want. One thing is for sure, though. Yes, you're right. I don't want to give up using my cellphone while NOT driving in the car or while riding public transit. Why should I be punished unnecessarily for those lunatics who endanger other people by abusing the availability of mobile devices? Draconian measures like that is hardly rational to me.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  2. #77
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    Why should I be punished unnecessarily for those lunatics who endanger other people by abusing the availability of mobile devices? Draconian measures like that is hardly rational to me.
    Very true. Why should everybody be punished or unnecessarily restricted because some lunatics are obsessed with their irrational fear of the Danger, Danger! they see all about them?

  3. #78
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    I have yet to see any statistics showing an increase in accidents correlating to the increase of mobile communication devices, despite my personal observation and the recorded observations of others as to the despicable lack of attention to driving while using such devices. Thats not to say that there is not a corresponding increase in accidents, just that I have not seen any. Not talking about blogs and references to "expert" opinions, but actual accident rate data.

    Makes me wonder if perhaps people will find a way to get distracted and crash no matter whats legal or not, or what devices are available or not.
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  4. #79
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    I have yet to see any statistics showing an increase in accidents correlating to the increase of mobile communication devices, despite my personal observation and the recorded observations of others as to the despicable lack of attention to driving while using such devices. Thats not to say that there is not a corresponding increase in accidents, just that I have not seen any. Not talking about blogs and references to "expert" opinions, but actual accident rate data.
    I don't think I've seen any statistics like that, either. What makes me wonder is whether or not the accidents caused indirectly by distracted driving are reflected in such statistical results. For example, someone driving erratically can cause another driver to try and avoid him/her, which may result in the other driver crashing. In the meantime, the culprit driver just drives away.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  5. #80
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    I don't think I've seen any statistics like that, either. What makes me wonder is whether or not the accidents caused indirectly by distracted driving are reflected in such statistical results. For example, someone driving erratically can cause another driver to try and avoid him/her, which may result in the other driver crashing. In the meantime, the culprit driver just drives away.
    Why stop with only one imagined example? I am sure you and others can conjure up dozens of hypothetical scenarios that can serve to "justify" the irrational fear mongering.

  6. #81
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Why stop with only one imagined example? I am sure you and others can conjure up dozens of hypothetical scenarios that can serve to "justify" the irrational fear mongering.
    I'm not trying to justify anything. I was just wondering about the validity of statistical analyses on accidents caused by distracted driving.

    FWIW, I've been riding to and from work 2-3 times a week. The entire trip is on the carriageways - no sidewalks or even trails involved. It's fun, it's healthy and it's environment-friendly. I thoroughly enjoy myself and have no plan to stop doing it.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  7. #82
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    There are plenty of stats on texting accidents available-Here are some numbers- of course you will NEVER actually KNOW(99.99 probability) how many accidents are caused by cell phone and texting
    BECAUSE NO ONE IS STUPID ENOUGH TO ADMIT THEY WERE TEXTING OR JABBERING before the crash.
    So the data the naysayers will want-is IMPOSSIBLE to get-unless you are gullible enough to think folks don't lie
    In any case here is one groups guess-Oh I still ride on streets- 62 yo-I will die from an MI or cancer just like you guys will-few of you will die from trauma-cars wrecks falls wife girlfriend boyfriend shooting/stabbing you etc


    The estimate of 25% of all crashes -- or 1.4 million crashes -- involving cell phone use was derived from NHTSA data showing 11% of drivers at any one time are using cell phones and from peer-reviewed research reporting cell phone use increases crash risk by four times. The estimate of an additional minimum 3% of crashes -- or 200,000 crashes -- involving texting was derived by NHTSA data showing 1% of drivers at any one time are manipulating their device in ways that include texting and from research reporting texting increases crash risk by 8 times. Using the highest risk for texting reported by research of 23 times results in a maximum of 1 million crashes attributable to texting; still less than the 1.4 million crashes involving other cell phone use.

  8. #83
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    Meh. In Portland most cycling fatalities were due to right hooks (often in bike lanes) or drunk cagers. To avoid right hooks I take the lane. To avoid drunks I avoid arterials between 12-3 am.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  9. #84
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    The hiway safety people have posted stats that says using a cell phone especially while texting is more dangerous than drunk driving.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    This is a fun and colorful info page. http://www.textinganddrivingsafety.c...driving-stats/

    http://gpssystems.net/texting-dangerous-driving/

    I am also finding it difficult to get back on the road after being hit. I have zero confidence that people are driving with enough care or attention. All it takes is a lack of focus for a split second or a driver's bad decision and you are on the ground, broken.
    Last edited by Number400; 10-04-13 at 07:50 AM.

  11. #86
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    I have yet to see any statistics showing an increase in accidents correlating to the increase of mobile communication devices, despite my personal observation and the recorded observations of others as to the despicable lack of attention to driving while using such devices. Thats not to say that there is not a corresponding increase in accidents, just that I have not seen any. Not talking about blogs and references to "expert" opinions, but actual accident rate data.

    Makes me wonder if perhaps people will find a way to get distracted and crash no matter whats legal or not, or what devices are available or not.
    Perhaps the issue is that investigators have not gathered such data... provided collisions ARE investigated. Minor collisions and fender benders tend to not be investigated. Major collisions and death reports may not include the data that points to a "mobile communication device."

    Some states still do not even have laws on the books that limit the use of "mobile communication devices..." so why would they even bother to determine if a mobile communication device was the cause of a collision.

  12. #87
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Informative



    Lightning P-38 / M5 M-Racer/Ryan Vanguard

  13. #88
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
    Informative



    Yep that settles the issue of cell phone use with the statistical evidence, eh?

    Might be too dangerous to bicycle on a Belgium driver training test track, especially when they are filming stunts to "prove" a point.

  14. #89
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Yep that settles the issue of cell phone use with the statistical evidence, eh?

    Might be too dangerous to bicycle on a Belgium driver training test track, especially when they are filming stunts to "prove" a point.
    So uh, who exactly is collecting the statistical evidence you seek... especially since it may take a warrant to determine of a phone was in use at a specific time.

  15. #90
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Perhaps the issue is that investigators have not gathered such data... provided collisions ARE investigated. Minor collisions and fender benders tend to not be investigated. Major collisions and death reports may not include the data that points to a "mobile communication device."

    Some states still do not even have laws on the books that limit the use of "mobile communication devices..." so why would they even bother to determine if a mobile communication device was the cause of a collision.
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    So uh, who exactly is collecting the statistical evidence you seek... especially since it may take a warrant to determine of a phone was in use at a specific time.

    Which of course frees up some characters to make up any theoretical accident statistics they like, often by the use of multiple tortured extrapolations from "studies" to come up with whatever accident statistics fits the agenda.

  16. #91
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Which of course frees up some characters to make up any theoretical accident statistics they like, often by the use of multiple tortured extrapolations from "studies" to come up with whatever accident statistics fits the agenda.
    Yeah, "characters." Like those characters at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, eh? Yeah what do those characters know about traffic safety, eh?

    Hey, I bet if you look back in the past, you'll see the similar denials made about alcohol use too... including different states having different levels of DUI/DWI, even allowing for "open containers" in the vehicle.

    Yup, bunch of characters...

    No doubt some folks need a smoking cell phone or empty beer can before their doubts are erased...

    So do you think there is a "cell phone involved" check block on collision reports?

    Hey ILTB, do you actually have to run into a brick wall at 15MPH to know that it might hurt? Or can that be "extrapolated?"
    Last edited by genec; 10-04-13 at 09:31 AM.

  17. #92
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Yep that settles the issue of cell phone use with the statistical evidence, eh?

    Might be too dangerous to bicycle on a Belgium driver training test track, especially when they are filming stunts to "prove" a point.
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Yeah, "characters." Like those characters at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, eh? Yeah what do those characters know about traffic safety, eh?

    Hey, I bet if you look back in the past, you'll see the similar denials made about alcohol use too... including different states having different levels of DUI/DWI, even allowing for "open containers" in the vehicle.

    Yup, bunch of characters...

    No doubt some folks need a smoking cell phone or empty beer can before their doubts are erased...

    So do you think there is a "cell phone involved" check block on collision reports?

    Hey ILTB, do you actually have to run into a brick wall at 15MPH to know that it might hurt? Or can that be "extrapolated?"
    This round goes to genec. Sorry ILTB, better luck next time.
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  18. #93
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    As an initial study, all that needs to be proven is that the rate of accidents is increasing. If the rate of accidents is not increasing then there are only two possibilities, that since cell phone and testing are increasing they are not causing accidents, or the is an offsetting factor which offsets the amount of accidents which are caused by cell phones. IF the rate of accidents is increasing then follow-up studies on reasons for the increase in accident rates, such as:

    Also there is a number af natural experiments currently available, you can compare the rate of accidents before and after the enactment of no cell use laws in states that have done so, to the accident rates in states which have not enacted such laws. You would thereby be able to deduce if there is an increase in accidents caused by cell phone use. Offsetting the conclusions of such a study would be the lack of compliance to no use phone laws.

    These are not overly difficult studies to do, they use common econometric techniques to separate cause and effect in multi-variable systems. For those of you that refuse to believe that statistical techniques work, well, more power to ya, but you are wrong.
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  19. #94
    Senior Member rgwinn's Avatar
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    There are risks associated with every aspect of our life. Most of us are more likely to die from Heart problems, Diabetes or Cancer.

    Worrying excessively about what "may" happen serves no useful purpose.

    I have ridden, both on and off road for 40 years. I am fortunate to not have had any serious accidents, I have had friend that have had some run ins with cars. However, I personally know more people that have had car accidents, some deadly. So you can't say that Cycling the road is inherently more dangerous.

    I also rode snowmobiles for a period of time. I actually witnessed a novice drive off a trail into a tree. Serious injuries.

    Anytime you step out your front door to enjoy a recreational activity, you face the uncertainties of chance.

    Scuba diving? hunting? Fishing? Hiking? Rock Climbing? there are many, many, stories of people who received critical injuries from any of these activities.

    So, what can you do? Try to be aware as much as you can, realize that there are hazards out there, and that nothing you do will prevent the freak accidents, or the inattentive drivers, I am more worried about the vindictive driver.

    I am mostly riding with a group of about 15-20 riders, so our mass provides a little buffer from some of the problems. But, the group riding brings its own challenges, as my friend found out a couple weeks ago when a new rider clipped his rear wheel and he went down at 25mph.

    Ride safe, be happy, enjoy the time you have.

    Remember; "You only DIE once, you live every day"

  20. #95
    Senior Member rgwinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number400 View Post
    This is a fun and colorful info page. http://www.textinganddrivingsafety.c...driving-stats/

    http://gpssystems.net/texting-dangerous-driving/

    I am also finding it difficult to get back on the road after being hit. I have zero confidence that people are driving with enough care or attention. All it takes is a lack of focus for a split second or a driver's bad decision and you are on the ground, broken.

    So, does that mean you don't drive any longer? Do you feel safer in your car? even though you are travelling faster and statistically more likely to die in an auto accident?

    And what about the accidents where the driver hits a house? or business? You cannot escape fate.
    Remember; "You only DIE once, you live every day"

  21. #96
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
    This round goes to genec. Sorry ILTB, better luck next time.
    I don't get the impression that ILTB is saying that texting while driving is wise or safe. I think his point is that there are no stats to back up the statement, "There are stats showing that texting is more dangerous than (x)."

    Should these stats be collected? Will they be, someday? If they are, how are they being collected? That's all worth discussing.

    It reminds me of the folks who say that putting a blinkie on your bike is just asking for drunks to run you over. The argument is that drunks can't help but succumb to the "moth effect" and are drawn to the cyclist. Are there studies and statistics to back up this claim? Maybe, but I want to know how they reached those statistics. Did they interview drunk drivers who plowed into flashing lights? Was there a check box for "I was drawn to the flashing lights because I was drunk." ?
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  22. #97
    Senior Member rgwinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    As an initial study, all that needs to be proven is that the rate of accidents is increasing. If the rate of accidents is not increasing then there are only two possibilities, that since cell phone and testing are increasing they are not causing accidents, or the is an offsetting factor which offsets the amount of accidents which are caused by cell phones. IF the rate of accidents is increasing then follow-up studies on reasons for the increase in accident rates, such as:

    Also there is a number af natural experiments currently available, you can compare the rate of accidents before and after the enactment of no cell use laws in states that have done so, to the accident rates in states which have not enacted such laws. You would thereby be able to deduce if there is an increase in accidents caused by cell phone use. Offsetting the conclusions of such a study would be the lack of compliance to no use phone laws.

    These are not overly difficult studies to do, they use common econometric techniques to separate cause and effect in multi-variable systems. For those of you that refuse to believe that statistical techniques work, well, more power to ya, but you are wrong.
    The problem with any of these studies is that they use sampling and assumptions to form their conclusions. Before cell phones, we still had distracted drivers. My daughter (15) actually said yesterday that there should be a rule that drivers cannot have ANYTHING in their hands. Both hands free. Which actually makes the most sense.
    Remember; "You only DIE once, you live every day"

  23. #98
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    Yes, I continue to drive/commute and I am stressed because of it. I feel a little safer in the car as my vehicle does afford me some safety features that my bicycle does not. This happened last week on my route: http://www.wgal.com/news/susquehanna...j/-/index.html

    Have you ever been injured? I mean really injured and suffered pain because of someone else being careless or driving recklessly? Sure, it's an odds game and statistics come into play. I also believe that when it's your time, it's your time but don't you agree that the statistics can improve when people stop dicking around behind the wheel?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgwinn View Post
    So, does that mean you don't drive any longer? Do you feel safer in your car? even though you are travelling faster and statistically more likely to die in an auto accident?

    And what about the accidents where the driver hits a house? or business? You cannot escape fate.
    Barbossa: I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request. Means "no".

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  24. #99
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    I don't get the impression that ILTB is saying that texting while driving is wise or safe. I think his point is that there are no stats to back up the statement, "There are stats showing that texting is more dangerous than (x)."
    True. Also I am making the point that the OMG! Cell Phones Use has made the roads SOOO Much More Dangerous crowd continues to use the terms "cell phone use" and "texting" interchangeably, And do not distinguish at all their probable quite different effect, if any, on driving capabilities.

    Reminds me of the people who cannot or will not make any distinction on the dangers and/or physical effects of ANY use of any recreational drug and condemn the use of all as being equally evil. Perhaps Genec, et al. remember the Public Service Announcements sponsored/encouraged by various Federal organizations and very top officials about the OMG!! Dangers of the use of marijuana and how how it will fry and scramble brains.

    Lack of evidence and even negative evidence seldom gets in the way of a moral crusader with an agenda.

  25. #100
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    Ah, found my answer. Shame on me for missing that the first go-round. Also, many of these crashes are no accident...

    Quote Originally Posted by rgwinn View Post
    I am fortunate to not have had any serious accidents, I have had friend that have had some run ins with cars.
    Barbossa: I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request. Means "no".

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