Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 39 of 39
  1. #26
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Toronto ON CA
    My Bikes
    Salsa Vaya
    Posts
    490
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
    Rob Ford was never going to build a subway line. One subway alone is going to cost tens of billions of dollars and where is the money going to come from?
    Just to set the record straight:
    Our debate was whether to have a new LRT on a separated right-of-way or a more expensive subway to serve the east end of Toronto. The money has now been committed (2-3 billion, not tens) and we are getting a subway. It appears to be a done deal.

  2. #27
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Montana U.S.A.
    My Bikes
    Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
    Posts
    1,206
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Okay, first off I will say that I have never had to "share the road" with a streetcar(trolley) either as a cyclist or as a car or truck driver.

    That said, as I understand it someone is claiming that the cyclists "had a duty to get out of the way when the operator of the streetcar(trolley) honked at him". Since streetcars(trolleys) to my understanding when operated on a shared portion of the roadways and not a dedicated separate track are basically the same as a city bus just with a far more clearly defined route (the tracks) I ask the following questions:

    ----- 1 ~ Do you also believe the cyclist ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a bus in the lane behind him that honked at him and then ran him down when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 2 ~ Do you also believe a car ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a streetcar/trolley in the lane behind him that honked at him and then just rammed into the back of the car when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 3 ~ Do you also believe a car ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a bus in the lane behind him that honked at him and then just rammed into the back of the car when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 4 ~ Do you also believe a motorcycle ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a streetcar(trolley) or a bus behind him in the lane that honked at him and then ran him down when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 5 ~ Do you also believe a cyclist ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a car behind him in the lane that honked at him and then ran him down when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 6 ~ Do you believe its open season on cyclist on the roads in the lane ahead of you and that once you honk at them from being behind them in the lane and they don't "get out of the way" you can just run them down?
    Last edited by turbo1889; 09-28-13 at 10:09 AM.

  3. #28
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    My Bikes
    Trek, Cannondale
    Posts
    1,533
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    obviously something else was running through his head when he ignored the honking street car
    Maybe the cyclist didn't think it was safe to move at that moment? After all, he had the right of way, not the streetcar, unless the Ontario traffic laws state otherwise. As far as I can tell, the cyclist had no obligation to move for the streetcar.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  4. #29
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Long Island, New York
    My Bikes
    a lowrider BMX, a mountain bike, a faired recumbent, and a loaded touring bike
    Posts
    2,557
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The tram was only following the tram tracks. The driver can't steer.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  5. #30
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    My Bikes
    Trek, Cannondale
    Posts
    1,533
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
    The tram was only following the tram tracks. The driver can't steer.
    He sure could have slowed down, though?
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  6. #31
    Senior Member ZmanKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Overland Park, KS
    My Bikes
    1999 Giant TCR 2T 2009 Giant Cypress DX 2008 Giant Sedona
    Posts
    722
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    BTW one should always try to cross tracks or any abrupt change in pavement (cracks, steel plates, asphalt/concrete) in a perpendicular manner to reduce the chance of losing control of your bike.
    My right shoulder/AC Joint concurs with this.
    1999 Giant TCR 2T
    2009 Giant Cypress DX
    2008 Giant Sedona

  7. #32
    Senior Member hotbike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Long Island, New York
    My Bikes
    a lowrider BMX, a mountain bike, a faired recumbent, and a loaded touring bike
    Posts
    2,557
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    He sure could have slowed down, though?
    Yeah, but remember, two thirds of the passengers on a street car are standees. If the driver slams on the brakes, someone could hit the floor with his face.

    What I am saying is , It is Physically Impossible for a Streetcar to be driven into a Bike Lane. If you keep your Bike OFF the Tram Tracks, there is NO Way the Tram could hit you.

    What may have had happened though, is the bike tires got caught in the Flangeway, on the inside edge of the rail.

    I'm just bringing up the pros and cons of Trams versus rubber tired vehicles. At this point in life, I've given up, and I always let the Bus have the right-of-way. When they switch from buses to trams, it's a trade-off. The tram is more predictable, it only follows it's own tracks.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11629987@N02/sets/72157639939606343/

  8. #33
    Senior Member mharter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Boston, MA
    My Bikes
    it's a 3 speed
    Posts
    94
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If I am riding along street-running trolley tracks, I ride between the rails when there is not enough room to ride to the right safely. If I need to turn left, I will wait to turn between the tracks (unless I know that I'll hold up a trolley/other traffic for more than a few seconds.) If it takes waiting in the left lane for any length of time, I'll find another way to make the turn. There are good reasons to be out between the rails.

    If a driver comes up close behind me while I am out there, I am reluctant to attempt crossing the right rail at speed with them close behind, so I am forced to stay in their way until the next light, or slow way down and clear the rail. This situation can be stressful, but unavoidable sometimes.

    Trolley drivers are trained to keep safe stopping distance, but I've seen drivers cut in front of them and stop suddenly, sometimes resulting in an accident. It doesn't sound like the case here, since the driver honked several times.

  9. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Leeds UK
    Posts
    1,894
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    if he was riding parallel to the tracks between two on the same run, he was riding where he should not have been.

    Lets just say, for the moment that he had no other choice for a hundred feet or so but to ride "on the tracks"(which I find hard to believe), then wouldnt you think that he would be hyper aware of the situation. I would.

    he would have seen, or heard the streetcar, known it was closing on him and should have either moved or ditched.

    If the streetcar was doing 50+ mph, at night, w/no lights then I retract my statement. otherwise I do not feel that the driver was solely to blame for this misfortune.

    If the driver intentionally sped up, then I retract my statement.

    As previously stated, yes the driver should have slowed or stopped but the cyclist was not using the full potential of his brain.
    According to some of the comments (from Toronto cyclists), to avoid being doored by parked cars, cyclists have to ride between the streetcar tracks and this is common. We don't know if he was trying to turn left at the Queen St/Bathurst St junction or simply trying to avoid being doored. In either case, he would have been justified in taking the lane.

    As for "he would have seen, or heard the streetcar, (and) known it was closing on him and (he) should have either moved or ditched", your conclusion is based on supposition and ignorance of the law. A rider (or driver) in front of another vehicle has the right of way and it is their right to decide whether or not to move. As for ditching, he would have only done that if he'd known that a driver behind him was intent on not stopping or slowing and, in any case, it's a dangerous manoeuvre in itself.

    By the way, how do you distinguish between warning hoots and ones which says, "if you don't get out of my way, I'm going to run you down"?

  10. #35
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    burlington VT.
    Posts
    2,224
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    does it make everyone feel better if I also call the streetcar driver a dumbass as well.

    HEY DUMBASS STREETCAR DRIVER!!! TRY NOT TO BE A DUMBASS, DUMBASS.

    obviously the law sided w/ the cyclist as the driver was charged, so he was clearly in the wrong.

    I never said he was innocent. I do not think he should have gotten off scott free.

    I just feel that this accident was probably avoidable had one or both of the parties acted in a smarter way.

    The witness statement, at least what was printed in the article, indicated that the driver attempted to prevent the collision. It did not say that he maliciously sped up or chased him down with the intent of purposely causing harm.

    I dont how much more clearly I can say this. THE DRIVER SHOULD HAVE SLOWED DOWN OR STOPPED COMPLETELY.
    2010 Kestrel RT900SL, 800k carbon, chorus/record, speedplay, zonda
    1997 Trek ZX6000, 6061w/manitou spyder, xt/xtr, time atac

  11. #36
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    burlington VT.
    Posts
    2,224
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Okay, first off I will say that I have never had to "share the road" with a streetcar(trolley) either as a cyclist or as a car or truck driver.

    That said, as I understand it someone is claiming that the cyclists "had a duty to get out of the way when the operator of the streetcar(trolley) honked at him". Since streetcars(trolleys) to my understanding when operated on a shared portion of the roadways and not a dedicated separate track are basically the same as a city bus just with a far more clearly defined route (the tracks) I ask the following questions:

    ----- 1 ~ Do you also believe the cyclist ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a bus in the lane behind him that honked at him and then ran him down when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 2 ~ Do you also believe a car ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a streetcar/trolley in the lane behind him that honked at him and then just rammed into the back of the car when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 3 ~ Do you also believe a car ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a bus in the lane behind him that honked at him and then just rammed into the back of the car when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 4 ~ Do you also believe a motorcycle ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a streetcar(trolley) or a bus behind him in the lane that honked at him and then ran him down when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 5 ~ Do you also believe a cyclist ahead in the lane would "have a duty to get out of the way" of a car behind him in the lane that honked at him and then ran him down when he didn't get out of the way?

    ----- 6 ~ Do you believe its open season on cyclist on the roads in the lane ahead of you and that once you honk at them from being behind them in the lane and they don't "get out of the way" you can just run them down?
    nice debate format.

    do you work in the redundancy department of redundancy

    to answer your question (singular)

    no.
    2010 Kestrel RT900SL, 800k carbon, chorus/record, speedplay, zonda
    1997 Trek ZX6000, 6061w/manitou spyder, xt/xtr, time atac

  12. #37
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    My Bikes
    Trek, Cannondale
    Posts
    1,533
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
    Yeah, but remember, two thirds of the passengers on a street car are standees. If the driver slams on the brakes, someone could hit the floor with his face.

    What I am saying is , It is Physically Impossible for a Streetcar to be driven into a Bike Lane. If you keep your Bike OFF the Tram Tracks, there is NO Way the Tram could hit you.
    I don't know if there is a dedicated bike lane in the street where the accident occurred. From the posts made by those in Toronto, it is entirely possible that there isn't one, and you would risk being doored by parked cars if riding on the right side of the track.

    A bit off-topic, but I've realized that many bike lanes are poorly designed where I live. They are to the immediate left of the edge of the road reserved for car parking. It means if you ride in the bike lane, you can be doored anytime. To avoid it, you have to ride in the regular lane, which beats the purpose of bike lanes.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  13. #38
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Toronto ON CA
    My Bikes
    Salsa Vaya
    Posts
    490
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    streetcar_tracks.jpg

    Here are standard streetcar tracks in Toronto. I think it's obvious why someone would choose to ride between the rails. The nasty little groove inside the rail (someone called it a flangeway) is about 1-1/2 inches deep and just the right size for a bike tire. The rails are set in concrete and the seam between it and the asphalt often deteriorates creating another trouble spot. Perhaps they exist but I have never seen a bike lane on a streetcar route.

  14. #39
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Montana U.S.A.
    My Bikes
    Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
    Posts
    1,206
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by asmac View Post
    streetcar_tracks.jpg

    Here are standard streetcar tracks in Toronto. I think it's obvious why someone would choose to ride between the rails. The nasty little groove inside the rail (someone called it a flangeway) is about 1-1/2 inches deep and just the right size for a bike tire. The rails are set in concrete and the seam between it and the asphalt often deteriorates creating another trouble spot. Perhaps they exist but I have never seen a bike lane on a streetcar route.

    As pictured ----- Hell, yes, I'm riding in the center between the rails !!! The only half way safe place to ride on the street as pictured and if I have to cross the rails I'm going to turn sharp enough to cross the rails and the flangeway groove at a sharp enough angle across the rail and its gap so as to not get my tire caught.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •