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  1. #1
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Streetcar runs down cyclist -- operator charged


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    Senior Member spinbackle's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what others think, but I think that picture in the article is heavily-photoshopped.
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    Senior Member Pibber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinbackle View Post
    I'm not sure what others think, but I think that picture in the article is heavily-photoshopped.
    definitely shopped. i can tell by the pixels.

  4. #4
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    The picture thing is odd. It seems unlikely that there is an actual picture so I expect it was created as an editorial illustration. Don't know why anyone would think that was a good idea.

  5. #5
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    First off that is not photograph. It is a video game quality rendition.

    Obviously the driver should have slowed down or stopped completely BUT cyclist have a responsibility to share the road in safe manner just like a motor vehicle. Why did he not move to the side? Was his IPOD too loud to hear the repeated honking? Dont streetcars ride on tracks? Why was the cycling in the middle of the tracks?

    I feel for the biker for the injuries he probably suffered but, HEY DUMBASS!!! TRY NOT TO BE SUCH A DUMBASS, DUMBASS.
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  6. #6
    Randomhead
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    trying to figure out how you can make that kind of judgement. If a cyclist is travelling between the tracks, it's not easy to get out. In that situation, the only safe approach is actually to stop, given the notion the streetcar driver isn't a sociopath

  7. #7
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    if he was riding parallel to the tracks between two on the same run, he was riding where he should not have been.

    Lets just say, for the moment that he had no other choice for a hundred feet or so but to ride "on the tracks"(which I find hard to believe), then wouldnt you think that he would be hyper aware of the situation. I would.

    he would have seen, or heard the streetcar, known it was closing on him and should have either moved or ditched.

    If the streetcar was doing 50+ mph, at night, w/no lights then I retract my statement. otherwise I do not feel that the driver was solely to blame for this misfortune.

    If the driver intentionally sped up, then I retract my statement.

    As previously stated, yes the driver should have slowed or stopped but the cyclist was not using the full potential of his brain.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    if he was riding parallel to the tracks between two on the same run, he was riding where he should not have been.
    Lets just say, for the moment that he had no other choice for a hundred feet or so but to ride "on the tracks"(which I find hard to believe), then wouldnt you think that he would be hyper aware of the situation. I would.
    he would have seen, or heard the streetcar, known it was closing on him and should have either moved or ditched.
    If the streetcar was doing 50+ mph, at night, w/no lights then I retract my statement. otherwise I do not feel that the driver was solely to blame for this misfortune.
    If the driver intentionally sped up, then I retract my statement.
    As previously stated, yes the driver should have slowed or stopped but the cyclist was not using the full potential of his brain.
    Apparently you have not actually seen a streetcar.

    1. Streetcars are slow and lumbering and a general pain for bicycles and cars alike.
    2. Most streetcar routes are on shared roadway -- i.e. just a regular street which anyone can use.
    3. In many places there is a row of parked cars, 3 feet or less of pavement and then the righthand rail. It is reasonable to ride between the rails in that case to avoid dooring or if you are turning left.
    4. It can be a very dicey crossing the rails especially when not crossing at a right angle.
    5. Unless the streetcar was cut off there is absolutely no excuse for it to hit someone from behind.
    Last edited by asmac; 09-27-13 at 10:10 AM.

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    +100 DUMBASS cyclist ... and dumbass street design. They did this same BS in the 1910s.
    He obviously had NO problem getting INSIDE the tracks. Mixing trains and bicycles is ********.
    Rob Ford is correct in wanting to get rid of this and build subway lines.

  10. #10
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Well, it does demonstrate one of the risk of taking the lane.
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  11. #11
    Fritz M richardmasoner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    BUT cyclist have a responsibility to share the road in safe manner just like a motor vehicle. Why did he not move to the side?
    It's a shared lane -- streetcar tracks run right down the road. In that area it's perfectly reasonable for the cyclist to ride near the middle of the road in the streetcar tracks. Cyclists and drivers stopped near the middle of the lane stopped as they wait to make a left turn is a completely expected and normal movement at this location. This expectation of normal traffic movements probably informed the local prosecutor's decision to charge the operator.

    The streetcar operator obviously saw the cyclist since he made the effort to honk, but like you, @catonec, he obviously doesn't think cyclists belong on the road.

  12. #12
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
    +100 DUMBASS cyclist ... and dumbass street design. They did this same BS in the 1910s.
    He obviously had NO problem getting INSIDE the tracks. Mixing trains and bicycles is ********.
    Rob Ford is correct in wanting to get rid of this and build subway lines.
    Dumbass comments.

    Does someone want to get rid of streetcars? News to me.

  13. #13
    genec genec's Avatar
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    BTW for those of you who have never seen streetcar, or don't understand the dynamics of streetcars with other traffic, including cyclists...

    Here is a 1906 film of San Francisco that shows a street car (was actually filmed from a streetcar) and how the public dealt with them...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGloeX1SpAU

    Now bear in mind that over the years, the buildings have changed, the clothing has changed, the cars have changed, but fundamentally the streetcars have remained the same.

  14. #14
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardmasoner View Post
    ......... but like you, @catonec, he obviously doesn't think cyclists belong on the road.
    um, ok then.

    I stated that cyclists have a resposibility to share the road just like a vehicle (POST #5 ) so obviously that means that I dont think they should ride in the road????

    if you dont agree w/me thats fine. the cyclist wasnt to blame at all.

    I have said TWICE now that the driver should have stopped.
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  15. #15
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinbackle View Post
    I'm not sure what others think, but I think that picture in the article is heavily-photoshopped.
    I was thinking the same thing.

  16. #16
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    BTW for those of you who have never seen streetcar, or don't understand the dynamics of streetcars with other traffic, including cyclists...

    Here is a 1906 film of San Francisco that shows a street car (was actually filmed from a streetcar) and how the public dealt with them...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGloeX1SpAU

    Now bear in mind that over the years, the buildings have changed, the clothing has changed, the cars have changed, but fundamentally the streetcars have remained the same.
    thank you for that enthralling video.

    yes you are correct, I do not have to deal w/ street cars on my rides, nor do I fully understand the dymanics of them.

    So, it does look like there is at least 10 feet between the tracks and curb.

    At the 3:15 mark of your video it shows a cyclist move from the 10 feet Im talking about, into the center of the tracks, and then back out of them a few moments later. the transition did not appear to be difficult or require any special bike handling skills. wheres the problem?
    Last edited by catonec; 09-27-13 at 08:11 PM.
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    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmac View Post
    .............1. Streetcars are slow and lumbering and a general pain for bicycles and cars alike.
    4. It can be a very dicey crossing the rails especially when not crossing at a right angle........
    1. I understand the streetcar was not, nor does it usually, do 50+ mph. It is called sarcasm friend.

    4. can you ride up a curb, or over a speed bump? even at a very shallow angle it is not difficult. some people even know how to pop a slight wheelie, or dare I say bunny hop.

    the details of the article are vague at best but to me it appears that the cyclist made no attempt to move out of the way even though the driver tried repeatedly to alert him to his presence.

    THIRD or FORTH time. yes the driver should have slowed or stopped completely, but the cyclist is partially to blame as well.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member walrus1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    It is a video game quality rendition.
    If your video game was a budget title from 1995 for the original Playstation. But even then the quality is debatable.

  19. #19
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    I didnt mean quality as in good. I meant quality as in level of graphics

    like "video game quality" better than hand drawn, worse than cinema cgi.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member asmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    4. can you ride up a curb, or over a speed bump? even at a very shallow angle it is not difficult. some people even know how to pop a slight wheelie, or dare I say bunny hop.
    THIRD or FORTH time. yes the driver should have slowed or stopped completely, but the cyclist is partially to blame as well.
    I hear your that the driver should have slowed or stopped. On that we agree.
    Re crossing the tracks, parallel to the tracks, it's not at all the same as a speed bump or curb and is a major source of accidents. It's quite nervous-making when a fall would put you in the path of a streetcar. Consequently it is sometimes better just to stay where you are.
    Another issue with streetcars is that they generally move at an average speed similar to a not-so-fast bike, If you pass them (on the right, of course, competing with all the cars trying to do the same) they eventually pass you again and so on. Of course when a streetcar is stopped with the doors open you can't legally or safely pass them at all. Even worse, the waiting crowd often shuffles into the street ahead of the streetcar's arrival blocking all traffic. Cyclists (and cars) are left cooling their jets while the streetcar slowly unloads and loads, often through a couple of traffic light cycles.
    When there are parked cars, the distance between the side of streetcar and the cars is not too much and I really hate getting stuck there. All things considered, it can be reasonable and safe to ride in the left lane between the tracks. If the streetcar has to slow down, too bad. If you lived with it I think you'd agree.
    Last edited by asmac; 09-28-13 at 09:35 AM.

  21. #21
    Senior Member catonec's Avatar
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    so not to beat a dead horse but there is no test/license required to own or ride a bicycle.

    many cyclist ride like they own the streets w/ no regard for cars or pedestrians.

    I often see people riding their bikes while talking on the phone, texting, smoking, playing w/their ipods. Basically things that take their attention away from whats going on around them and riding in an unsafe manor.

    perhaps I jumped to the conclusion that this particular rider was one of these people.

    obviously something else was running through his head when he ignored the honking street car

    perhaps he flipped off the driver and angered him who knows (speculation I know).
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  22. #22
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    Simply no excuse for being hit by a fixed road bed train or street car.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
    +100 DUMBASS cyclist ... and dumbass street design. They did this same BS in the 1910s.
    He obviously had NO problem getting INSIDE the tracks. Mixing trains and bicycles is ********.
    Rob Ford is correct in wanting to get rid of this and build subway lines.
    Rob Ford was never going to build a subway line. One subway alone is going to cost tens of billions of dollars and where is the money going to come from?

    Years ago, I put myself in the middle of a tram tack in Philidelphia. A huge mistake and I was lucky there was no tram behind at them time. I think the Tram operator should have known this but lets hope he's removed from the job and put in administration duties.

  24. #24
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catonec View Post
    thank you for that enthralling video.

    yes you are correct, I do not have to deal w/ street cars on my rides, nor do I fully understand the dymanics of them.

    So, it does look like there is at least 10 feet between the tracks and curb.

    At the 3:15 mark of your video it shows a cyclist move from the 10 feet Im talking about, into the center of the tracks, and then back out of them a few moments later. the transition did not appear to be difficult or require any special bike handling skills. wheres the problem?
    As an aside... note that in that 1906 video everything was moving at human speeds... So all traffic was able to easily merge and move together.

    Regarding moving over rails... at times the transition between the rails and street can involve a level change... such a level change can be a short smooth ramp or an abrupt crack or ledge... if the latter, it is easy for a bike tire to be caught by ledge, and to force the front wheel to turn in an unexpected manner, throwing the cyclist.

    The best approach is to cross tracks in a perpendicular manner... something that can be difficult while in between the tracks.

    BTW one should always try to cross tracks or any abrupt change in pavement (cracks, steel plates, asphalt/concrete) in a perpendicular manner to reduce the chance of losing control of your bike.

  25. #25
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Simply no excuse for being hit by a fixed road bed train or street car.
    You do understand that the street car operator has an obligation act in the same manner as any other vehicle operator when sharing the road with others. This is not a case of an isolated and restricted track.

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