Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 51
  1. #1
    Capt Sensible
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    My Bikes
    Kona Sutra, Cramerroti 650C
    Posts
    72
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Driver-less cars are coming

    Interesting article from the Guardian (UK). Apologies if this has already been posted:

    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ming-bike-blog

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    20,513
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Yes, if all works right, the computer might be better, more courteous drivers than humans tend to be. But how they treat cyclists will only be as good as the sensing systems, and the algorithms that analyze the data and make decisions.

    Overall, it's promising, but I'm a wait and see guy.
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  3. #3
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Yes, if all works right, the computer might be better, more courteous drivers than humans tend to be. But how they treat cyclists will only be as good as the sensing systems, and the algorithms that analyze the data and make decisions.

    Overall, it's promising, but I'm a wait and see guy.
    It will also make an even bigger excuse for motorists' to kill a cyclist and get away with it. Because, More dependence on technology to make the decision, instead of a human being. So if the vehicle's program doesn't recognize the existence of a cyclist, the vehicle could run the cyclist down.

  4. #4
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Mecian
    Posts
    2,817
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OMG Now the threat of driverless cars mowing down innocent bicyclists! Is there no end to the irrational fear/paranoia? Perhaps a road rage suffering driver could find a undetectable way to override the computer and mow down a couple of irritating bicyclists and blame the computer? Just plain ...... well you fill in the words here.
    Recycle, Reclaim, Reuse and Repair
    The 4 Rs to save the planet

    "Toes"

  5. #5
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    OMG Now the threat of driverless cars mowing down innocent bicyclists! Is there no end to the irrational fear/paranoia? Perhaps a road rage suffering driver could find a undetectable way to override the computer and mow down a couple of irritating bicyclists and blame the computer? Just plain ...... well you fill in the words here.
    I knew you would react that way. Did it ever occur to you, that if cars are somehow put 'in tune' with traffic signals, that a cyclist in front of a fully-automated vehicle at a traffic light, could actually get run over at the traffic light. Despite anything a driver might try to override. Ever hear the phrase 'too much of a good thing'. I guess not, judging by your responses.

  6. #6
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Mecian
    Posts
    2,817
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Chris , you totally missed my point. My point is that no matter what the situation, you seem to see danger and malice lurking around every bend in the road, be it a human driver or not. Clearly, any driverless system would have a safety systems to prevent the car from plowing over every unexpected thing that happens to be in the road. Yet in over 40 years of cycling, I have yet to be run over by a car, I have yet to be attacked by hooligans, I have fallen without a helmet and have suffered no brain injury. Yet you persist in claiming danger and malice lurk everywhere. And I have cycled in in the midwest, and both coasts, and the pacific northwest.

    I mean really, driver lesss cars providing a even bigger excuse for drivers to kill cyclists without consequence?? Really are you that afraid? Do you actually believe that crap?
    Recycle, Reclaim, Reuse and Repair
    The 4 Rs to save the planet

    "Toes"

  7. #7
    Walmart bike rider gpsblake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    1,663
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Now we need to come out with driverless bicycles.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,793
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Chris, the tech to avoid cyclists is already in place -- Volvo advertises it, and similar systems are under the Nissan/Infiniti umbrella. Sync'ing with traffic signals is irrelevant as it applies to 'road obstacles'.

    The advantages: ROAD RAGE NO MORE.
    TRAFFIC LAWS FOLLOWED.
    TEXTING WHILE DRIVING NO LONGER AN ISSUE.
    CAR-POOLING EASIER TO FACILITATE.

    The disadvantages: VULNERABILITY TO HACKING.
    KNOWN ERRATIC NATURE OF ELECTRONICS.
    FURTHER DE-PERSONALIZATION OF SOCIETY.
    "CONTROL FREAKS" ACTUALLY *FREAK*!

    Blake, the day bikes become automated is the day I quit riding. I'll learn rollerblading first!

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    4,639
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Chris, the tech to avoid cyclists is already in place -- Volvo advertises it, and similar systems are under the Nissan/Infiniti umbrella. Sync'ing with traffic signals is irrelevant as it applies to 'road obstacles'.

    The advantages: ROAD RAGE NO MORE.
    TRAFFIC LAWS FOLLOWED.
    TEXTING WHILE DRIVING NO LONGER AN ISSUE.
    CAR-POOLING EASIER TO FACILITATE.

    The disadvantages: VULNERABILITY TO HACKING.
    KNOWN ERRATIC NATURE OF ELECTRONICS.
    FURTHER DE-PERSONALIZATION OF SOCIETY.
    "CONTROL FREAKS" ACTUALLY *FREAK*!

    Blake, the day bikes become automated is the day I quit riding. I'll learn rollerblading first!
    Current motor vehicles are susceptible to hacking. They also have had some erratic electronic/mechanical issues that have led to quite a few recalls these past few years. I'm not sure that putting an electronic brain in charge of the driving really makes anything more de-personalized and I don't give a hoot about control freaks.

    I guess I just don't see much downside relative to where we are today. Even if the self-driving cars are imperfect (as are our current drivers), at least they are likely to improve with time, as opposed to the current crop of motorists. Sometimes the devil you know is soooo bad you just have to take a chance on the devil you don't know.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    20,513
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    As pointed out above, some of the features are ready, and hopefully will be rolled out piecemeal sooner rather than later.

    One that I'd like to see released ASAP is the traffic/bicycle detectors that interlock the doors to prevent opening a door into traffic. This could make dooring impossible, and wouldn't otherwise affect the car.

    Another feature that's already rolling out are various possible crash detectors and predictors. These can greatly reduce the chances of getting hit from behind by an inattentive driver, or one who doesn't see you because of conditions, such as a low sun directly in the driver's eyes.

    Regardless if what happens with integrated self driving, or when it happens, early rollout of partial systems is good for bicycle riders.
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  11. #11
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,745
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I read in Popular Science that flying cars are the next greatest thing. Oh wait, that was a 50 year old magazine. Maybe next year, eh?

  12. #12
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,745
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
    Now we need to come out with driverless bicycles.
    Plenty of 'em around already; look in any opened garage and there should be one or two.

  13. #13
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Chris, the tech to avoid cyclists is already in place -- Volvo advertises it, and similar systems are under the Nissan/Infiniti umbrella. Sync'ing with traffic signals is irrelevant as it applies to 'road obstacles'.

    The advantages: ROAD RAGE NO MORE.
    TRAFFIC LAWS FOLLOWED.
    TEXTING WHILE DRIVING NO LONGER AN ISSUE.
    CAR-POOLING EASIER TO FACILITATE.

    The disadvantages: VULNERABILITY TO HACKING.
    KNOWN ERRATIC NATURE OF ELECTRONICS.
    FURTHER DE-PERSONALIZATION OF SOCIETY.
    "CONTROL FREAKS" ACTUALLY *FREAK*!

    Blake, the day bikes become automated is the day I quit riding. I'll learn rollerblading first!
    The technology can be overridden by a motorist ignoring the commands. I heard of cyclist that was killed just the other day by a driver that was passing too close. They won't have technology in cars' to be aware on any side of the vehicle. Also, The technology will certainly not be put in big rigs n' dump trucks. Technology is moot.
    Last edited by Chris516; 10-12-13 at 01:23 PM.

  14. #14
    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    My Bikes
    Two wheeled ones
    Posts
    12,146
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    One of the biggest problems today is impatience - like that displayed by Chris. If it's not perfect right away, or has any failing, it is invalid and useless.

    This sounds like a potentially great technology that can save lives - I'm looking forward to seeing how it works. I'm a lousy driver - I hate doing it and I avoid it...this could be very useful for me. I might even drive again. I love the comment about the door sensor - that could be a fantastic tool. The legal side will get sorted out in the courts, but driving and equipment responsibility will undoubtedly remain largely with the operator.

  15. #15
    Senior Member SFCRetired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Montgomery, Alabama
    My Bikes
    Trek
    Posts
    62
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why does all this business of "driverless" cars bring to mind the "fully-automated, computer-flown" aircraft that one of the major manufacturers tried some years back? If I remember correctly, it killed about seven people on its first pilotless flight.

    If, and that is a big "if", the software is perfected and includes bicyclist and pedestrian avoidance, is protected against hacking, and if the hardware is hardened against electronic interference, it might turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread and canned beer. I would want to see extensive testing done, preferably by a third, disinterested party, before this technology is turned loose on the streets.

  16. #16
    50/50 Road/eBike Commuter kmcrawford111's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Roubaix, Electrified Swobo Dixon, Brompton
    Posts
    755
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
    One of the biggest problems today is impatience - like that displayed by Chris. If it's not perfect right away, or has any failing, it is invalid and useless.

    This sounds like a potentially great technology that can save lives - I'm looking forward to seeing how it works. I'm a lousy driver - I hate doing it and I avoid it...this could be very useful for me. I might even drive again. I love the comment about the door sensor - that could be a fantastic tool. The legal side will get sorted out in the courts, but driving and equipment responsibility will undoubtedly remain largely with the operator.
    The bigger question is: does it matter? People are already totally irresponsible. Even in my walkable community, there's plenty of drivers zooming around with total disregard for the people that are walking. There's every reason to believe that this technology will only increase that. Does anyone really believe "operators" will be paying attention in driverless cars when they already aren't paying attention as drivers? To me, it doesn't matter much if the ultimate responsibility lies with the operator. This technology is going to result in more inattentiveness, and the sad existing "deterrents" for reckless driving (primarily read as: it's clearly more OK to kill someone with a car than with any other means) just aren't effective. If they were, distracted driving wouldn't be the pandemic that it is.

    Call me paranoid, but this scares the hell out of me. Do any of you truly relish the thought of a car that isn't under human control coming up behind you? I sure as hell don't. Too bad the post-peak driving dropoff isn't steeper. At least trends in the younger folks (more affinity with city living, less desire for driving) are encouraging.

  17. #17
    50/50 Road/eBike Commuter kmcrawford111's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Roubaix, Electrified Swobo Dixon, Brompton
    Posts
    755
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Put more simply: it doesn't much matter where the ultimate responsibility lies because there are are too many irresponsible drivers. What really matters is the number of innocents being injured or killed.

  18. #18
    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    My Bikes
    Two wheeled ones
    Posts
    12,146
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kmcrawford111 View Post
    The bigger question is: does it matter? People are already totally irresponsible. Even in my walkable community, there's plenty of drivers zooming around with total disregard for the people that are walking. There's every reason to believe that this technology will only increase that. Does anyone really believe "operators" will be paying attention in driverless cars when they already aren't paying attention as drivers? To me, it doesn't matter much if the ultimate responsibility lies with the operator. This technology is going to result in more inattentiveness, and the sad existing "deterrents" for reckless driving (primarily read as: it's clearly more OK to kill someone with a car than with any other means) just aren't effective. If they were, distracted driving wouldn't be the pandemic that it is.

    Call me paranoid, but this scares the hell out of me. Do any of you truly relish the thought of a car that isn't under human control coming up behind you? I sure as hell don't. Too bad the post-peak driving dropoff isn't steeper. At least trends in the younger folks (more affinity with city living, less desire for driving) are encouraging.
    You are paranoid - and exaggerating the auto menace. That's a pandemic here.

  19. #19
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Eugene, OR
    My Bikes
    Mecian
    Posts
    2,817
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    The technology can be overridden by a motorist ignoring the commands. I heard of cyclist that was just the other day. Technology is moot.
    The technology is not intended to instruct the driver, it does the driving while the human does other things, not related to driving. I have no clue about what the cyclist that you heard of was up to. Adding coherence and sense to your posts would be helpful.
    Recycle, Reclaim, Reuse and Repair
    The 4 Rs to save the planet

    "Toes"

  20. #20
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Montana U.S.A.
    My Bikes
    Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
    Posts
    1,206
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why don't they just build an automatic braking system into existing cars that makes it almost impossible to hit something with a car that is right in front of you? That would be a relatively simple thing to build and program just program for progressively lower speed the closer the object in front without the brakes being applied and the more drastic the situation is (closing speed and range) the harder the brakes get applied when they do get applied. Wouldn't be a complete solution since an operator could still drive the car as fast as possible and then turn into what they were trying to hit/run-down at the last moment but it would be an excellent way to prevent so many incidents involving people hitting things with cars that are right in front of them.

    Basically I would love if when the texting idiot driver looking at their device and not even looking where they are going and are about to plow into someone or something right in front of them the brakes get slammed on hard enough for their face to fly forward and bounce off the steering wheel inside the car leaving some appropriate assorted bumps, bruises, and lacerations. Do that enough times and maybe with enough good bounces the loose wires inside their heads will get lined up properly for them to actually pay attention and treat their vehicle as the dangerous machine it is with the proper respect and due care accordingly and cease and desist in the criminal reckless endangerment of the lives, health, and property of other innocent people around them.

    Most two legged trash that don't give a hoot about anyone else still care about themselves and if the only way to deal with the situation is make it such that they get they get their face banged up by it bouncing off the steering wheel when the automatic emergency collision braking system kicks in ~ then so be it. Not to mention that it would personally give me great pleasure to see their faces beat up by bounding on the steering wheel when the brakes kick in rather then seeing innocent people being turned into hamburger on their hoods and front bumpers.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 10-12-13 at 10:52 AM.

  21. #21
    50/50 Road/eBike Commuter kmcrawford111's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Roubaix, Electrified Swobo Dixon, Brompton
    Posts
    755
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
    You are paranoid - and exaggerating the auto menace. That's a pandemic here.
    Pray tell just what I typed that was exaggerated. As long as car crashes remain the #1 killer of young kids through adults in their 30s, I'll continue to call the distracted driving that is absolutely a large contributor to those statistics a pandemic. Feel free to suggest a more appropriate term.

  22. #22
    50/50 Road/eBike Commuter kmcrawford111's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Valparaiso, IN
    My Bikes
    Specialized Roubaix, Electrified Swobo Dixon, Brompton
    Posts
    755
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Why don't they just build an automatic braking system into existing cars that makes it almost impossible to hit something with a car that is right in front of you? That would be a relatively simple thing to build and program just program for progressively lower speed the closer the object in front. Wouldn't be a complete solution since an operator could still drive the car as fast as possible and then turn into what they were trying to hit/run-down at the last moment but it would be an excellent way to prevent so many incidents involving people hitting things with cars that are right in front of them. Basically I want it so that when the texting idiot driver looking at their device and not even looking is about to plow into someone or something right in front of them the brakes get slammed on hard enough for their face to fly forward and bounce off the steering wheel inside the car leaving some appropriate assorted bumps, bruises, and lacerations. Do that enough times and maybe with enough good bounces the loose wires inside their heads will get lined up properly for them to actually pay attention and treat their vehicle as the dangerous machine it is with the proper respect and due care and respect accordingly.
    +1. One would think doing this would be less complicated than having an entire automated control system. My only concern here would be braking so sudden and hard as you describe - I could see that causing other problems. But it seems at least a more modulated automatic brake would be a good idea.

    As to the why? I think it's obvious - car makers are courting to drivers who want to be distracted. All their pushing for all these hands-free devices and touchscreens are a clear reflection of this. There's a good reason for having tactile controls - you don't have to look at them. The emphasis clearly is not about safety for car makers - just look at all the crazy **** you see promoted in car commercials. Aggressive driving, even in the middle of large cities. Cars playing football! Cars playing duck duck goose! It would be just stupid if people didn't actually drive that way. It's about power, comfort, and convenience, and always has been. I've seen two commercials lately where people who were almost plowed into by inattentive drivers appear happy that the two-ton machines that nearly ended their lives had some new technology that averted disaster. If it were me, or my kid, I'd give those drivers hell regardless. I'm supposed to appreciate that your car has a sensor that lets you look away even more? The hell with that.

  23. #23
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,745
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kmcrawford111 View Post
    Call me paranoid, but this scares the hell out of me.
    OK. You are.

  24. #24
    Señior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    My Bikes
    Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
    Posts
    11,555
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gpsblake View Post
    Now we need to come out with driverless bicycles.
    Then we'll need electric monks to believe things for us!

    FWIW, even the autonomous cars that are in testing now are fully able to recognize pedestrians and cyclists. They use LIDAR and RADAR both I think. The Google cars have driven something like a million or two miles and the only incident they've been involved with was when some other driver hit one. VW and Mercedes both have cars that can navigate European cities which certainly have plenty of cyclists for hours on end without any issues.

    I would ride on the road with autonomous vehicles over human drivers gladly.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  25. #25
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    4,948
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by kmcrawford111 View Post
    The bigger question is: does it matter? People are already totally irresponsible. Even in my walkable community, there's plenty of drivers zooming around with total disregard for the people that are walking. There's every reason to believe that this technology will only increase that. Does anyone really believe "operators" will be paying attention in driverless cars when they already aren't paying attention as drivers? To me, it doesn't matter much if the ultimate responsibility lies with the operator. This technology is going to result in more inattentiveness, and the sad existing "deterrents" for reckless driving (primarily read as: it's clearly more OK to kill someone with a car than with any other means) just aren't effective. If they were, distracted driving wouldn't be the pandemic that it is.

    Call me paranoid, but this scares the hell out of me. Do any of you truly relish the thought of a car that isn't under human control coming up behind you? I sure as hell don't. Too bad the post-peak driving dropoff isn't steeper. At least trends in the younger folks (more affinity with city living, less desire for driving) are encouraging.
    I agree with you.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •