In Tucson, bicyclists' lives are cheap
#26
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
HawkOwl wasn't replying to you Turbo1889, they were making their comment to the OP, which was...
As for Genec's suggestion about using a sharp object in some manner to dissuade bad behavior, that is an irresponsible comment and they should be ashamed.
Turbo, you've been in this thread so much perhaps you've become lost in it.
For what it's worth this thread isn't following it's topic well and the topic is not really much more than a subjective rant. The fact that the OP bowed out after their opening suggests that HawkOwl's feeling has some merit.
Originally Posted by Lot's Knife
Denied platinum status repeatedly by the League of American Bicyclists, Arizona's second-largest city still can't get it together.
Turbo, you've been in this thread so much perhaps you've become lost in it.
For what it's worth this thread isn't following it's topic well and the topic is not really much more than a subjective rant. The fact that the OP bowed out after their opening suggests that HawkOwl's feeling has some merit.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#27
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,972
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
People don't ride bicycles when they feel that they have a better choice for the task, and they ride them at those times and places when they feel it is the best choice for the task, period. Just like riding a horse.
You and other cager bashers may wish to blame evil motorists for every decision other people make that runs counter to your choice, but that doesn't make it so.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times
in
940 Posts
"Plurality" does not mean "majority".
Many people are scared to bicycle ride in traffic (many people mention it). I have no idea whether they are scared to do so because they think drivers are bad.
I have no idea how many walkers are scared of traffic (I've never heard anybody mention it). I doubt this is a common reason people don't walk.
For various reasons (beyond simple "expense"), horses are very impractical (now) as a form of transportation.
Cross-country skis wouldn't ever be practical in the summer or when there's no snow. When it does snow, the roads are plowed too quickly. Other than that, they are cheap and easy to keep (unlike horses).
Many people are scared to bicycle ride in traffic (many people mention it). I have no idea whether they are scared to do so because they think drivers are bad.
I have no idea how many walkers are scared of traffic (I've never heard anybody mention it). I doubt this is a common reason people don't walk.
For various reasons (beyond simple "expense"), horses are very impractical (now) as a form of transportation.
Cross-country skis wouldn't ever be practical in the summer or when there's no snow. When it does snow, the roads are plowed too quickly. Other than that, they are cheap and easy to keep (unlike horses).
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-15-13 at 07:45 AM.
#29
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
No! The referenced post questioned the poster's claim that the majority of people choose not to ride a bicycle because of their fear of motorists. Always, sometimes occasionally? Who knows since the poster presumably fabricated the statement out of whole cloth. You may feel the skepticism is "insipid", and that the reason why people choose anything other than a horse for transportation/exercise/recreation is the expense of a horse but that says more about your power of reasoning than anything else.
People don't ride bicycles when they feel that they have a better choice for the task, and they ride them at those times and places when they feel it is the best choice for the task, period. Just like riding a horse.
You and other cager bashers may wish to blame evil motorists for every decision other people make that runs counter to your choice, but that doesn't make it so.
People don't ride bicycles when they feel that they have a better choice for the task, and they ride them at those times and places when they feel it is the best choice for the task, period. Just like riding a horse.
You and other cager bashers may wish to blame evil motorists for every decision other people make that runs counter to your choice, but that doesn't make it so.
Now granted their perspective is as a motorist, dealing with their perceptions of other motorists... but the reason that comes back time and time again is that "it is too dangerous out there."
On the other hand I know of a couple regular commuters that don't wear helmets... their feeling is "why, it's fine out here."
So it is all about how people perceive motor vehicle traffic... Not whether the dangers exist or not.
#30
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,972
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
I wish I could agree with you... but as an active and vocal cycling activist I ask and discuss with people who weekend ride and those who train but don't commute, and the majority of the responses I get from these cyclists about why they don't commute on a bike comes down to not wanting to deal with obnoxious drivers while on a bike.
I questioned the first statement of B. Carfree, not your totally different statement.
It just could be that a "plurality" of people decided that a bicycle, just like a horse or skis, is not the practical tool for the task at hand.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 10-15-13 at 09:12 AM.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times
in
940 Posts
"plurality" is a odd word to use anyway ("B. Carfree" isn't taking about votes).
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plurality
a usually large number of things
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-15-13 at 09:29 AM.
#32
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,972
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
"plurality" is a odd word to use anyway ("B. Carfree" isn't taking about votes).
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plurality
In the context the word "plurality" is used by B. Carfree I can't guess what else he meant other than majority; no matter what he meant, (plurality, majority, whatever) it appears to be only a guess to fit his agenda.
#33
Not racing.
This is a woefully inaccurate statement. You cannot say that with any certainty at all. Had you run that red light, you may have T-boned a big truck or been T-boned by one. You might have hit a pedestrian or cyclist, killing them. Any number of things can be speculated with equal validity and certainty to your guess.
#34
Used & Abused
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 314
Bikes: GT Avalanche 2.0 + Burley D'lite
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is a woefully inaccurate statement. You cannot say that with any certainty at all. Had you run that red light, you may have T-boned a big truck or been T-boned by one. You might have hit a pedestrian or cyclist, killing them. Any number of things can be speculated with equal validity and certainty to your guess.
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,845
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2338 Post(s)
Liked 2,822 Times
in
1,541 Posts
In spite of the fact that a plurality of people won't ride bikes or walk because of their fear of the way motorists operate their vehicles, the odds of getting maimed by a motorist in an average lifetime are about 50%. Where's the hyperbole? Check out your local paper's web site for a week and count the number of road deaths and drunks-in-ditch stories.
Walking, cycling, driving and otherwise using the public roads should not be an activity that entails any risk. The fact that motorists kill and maim people on a regular basis rightfully has reasonable people alarmed and angry. But you go ahead and put your head back into that hole; I'm sure that's comforting for you.
Walking, cycling, driving and otherwise using the public roads should not be an activity that entails any risk. The fact that motorists kill and maim people on a regular basis rightfully has reasonable people alarmed and angry. But you go ahead and put your head back into that hole; I'm sure that's comforting for you.
all activity entails risk....getting out bed is a risk, taking pushing hard when defecating is a risk if you have a heart condition (ask emt friends how many heart attack victims are found on the toliet)
the expectation the using a road should entail no risk is nice, utiopian but does not work in this universe of physics and chaos theory.
Discussion of this mode may be fine in this forum, but IMHO would be counter productive in any real advocay, say in front of a city council.
The bottom line is that the best advocacy is to ensure every cyclist votes and make known their concerns to politicians/government bodies, increase the number of cyclists so that that vote grows (commute if you can, help a neighbor fix up bike and ride, teach a co worker how to ride in the road...etc)
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,272
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4257 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times
in
940 Posts
...I can't guess what else he meant...it appears to be only a guess...
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-15-13 at 10:49 AM.
#37
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Ah the usual "word fest..." Sigh... anyone care to define "is?"
#38
Not racing.
Wow.... No I cannot say with absolute certainty that something else equally at bad or even worse wouldn't have happened had I run the "orange" light. However, to say the certainty is equal to the actual pain and suffering I do experience is an absolutely ridiculous assertion.
#39
Used & Abused
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 314
Bikes: GT Avalanche 2.0 + Burley D'lite
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#41
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,972
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
#42
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
#43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Some posters here seem to have scores to settle, which is no business of mine, but to be clear, the death of this 7-year-old had nothing to do with a red light, but with a motorist who acted as if looking left was the only requirement for making a safe right turn.
Last edited by Lot's Knife; 10-15-13 at 03:49 PM. Reason: clarity
#44
Transportation Cyclist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Posts: 1,206
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yup, a typical locked head left stare right turner. One of the hazards I've learned to look for while a pedestrian (not really a hazard while I'm cycling because I don't cycle against traffic or pass right turning traffic on the right).
Unfortunately, it would be the rare 7-year old that would realize that danger and be looking and watching for it. And it will be a sad world if we ever get to the point where they are expected too in order to stay alive for the mere selfish convenience of motorists.
Unfortunately, it would be the rare 7-year old that would realize that danger and be looking and watching for it. And it will be a sad world if we ever get to the point where they are expected too in order to stay alive for the mere selfish convenience of motorists.
#45
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Yup, a typical locked head left stare right turner. One of the hazards I've learned to look for while a pedestrian (not really a hazard while I'm cycling because I don't cycle against traffic or pass right turning traffic on the right).
Unfortunately, it would be the rare 7-year old that would realize that danger and be looking and watching for it. And it will be a sad world if we ever get to the point where they are expected too in order to stay alive for the mere selfish convenience of motorists.
Unfortunately, it would be the rare 7-year old that would realize that danger and be looking and watching for it. And it will be a sad world if we ever get to the point where they are expected too in order to stay alive for the mere selfish convenience of motorists.
#46
Transportation Cyclist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Posts: 1,206
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Wow, genec, I don't have the balls to do that. I just generally wait until they turn before crossing the street.
Now if I know they see me and I've got a pedestrian dominant cross walk (a cross walk with no walk/don't-walk or other signal where peds. always have right of way in the cross-walk) then I'll step out right in front of them while looking them right in the eye full well intending to "make" them hit their brakes and respect me as a ped. with right of way in the crosswalk (while at the same time being ready to jump back out of the way at the last micro-second if they don't hit their brakes) and I will do the same thing with a signaled cross-walk where I've got the "walk" sign or I'm with the green light.
Sometimes this does result in some p*ssed off motorists who don't like me doing that too them one little bit. But I only do it when I know they see me and I can lock eyes with them. I've got the guts to do that and I regularly do so (although I have jumped a few times at the last moment when necessary). But I don't walk out in front of those who aren't looking and don't know I'm there and I don't have the guts to actually initiate by actually touching their car as rapping on their window would require.
I'll stand up for myself and I'll have a face off when necessary but I don't like to initiate the issue with a physical move like that, which is what I would consider rapping on their window like that to be.
By no means saying your wrong to do so, in fact I admire you for having the balls to do that, I don't. When I know I'm in the right I've got the guts to keep right on doing what I'm doing even though it ticks other people off right to their face. But when it comes to an actual confrontation not just going about my own business even though it ticks other people off whether, verbal only, just bare knuckles, are a serious lethal weapon situation I much prefer counter-punches and do not like to initiate.
Now if I know they see me and I've got a pedestrian dominant cross walk (a cross walk with no walk/don't-walk or other signal where peds. always have right of way in the cross-walk) then I'll step out right in front of them while looking them right in the eye full well intending to "make" them hit their brakes and respect me as a ped. with right of way in the crosswalk (while at the same time being ready to jump back out of the way at the last micro-second if they don't hit their brakes) and I will do the same thing with a signaled cross-walk where I've got the "walk" sign or I'm with the green light.
Sometimes this does result in some p*ssed off motorists who don't like me doing that too them one little bit. But I only do it when I know they see me and I can lock eyes with them. I've got the guts to do that and I regularly do so (although I have jumped a few times at the last moment when necessary). But I don't walk out in front of those who aren't looking and don't know I'm there and I don't have the guts to actually initiate by actually touching their car as rapping on their window would require.
I'll stand up for myself and I'll have a face off when necessary but I don't like to initiate the issue with a physical move like that, which is what I would consider rapping on their window like that to be.
By no means saying your wrong to do so, in fact I admire you for having the balls to do that, I don't. When I know I'm in the right I've got the guts to keep right on doing what I'm doing even though it ticks other people off right to their face. But when it comes to an actual confrontation not just going about my own business even though it ticks other people off whether, verbal only, just bare knuckles, are a serious lethal weapon situation I much prefer counter-punches and do not like to initiate.
#47
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Helps if you have a big dog with you.
#48
Senior Member
IT seems like the linked article is more that all lives lost in non-felony auto incidents are little punished. It's not about the bike. I know that as a pedestrian I have gotten much more aggressive in exerting my right of way, always trying to be on the lookout to dive or dodge out of the way if necessary. But now I take more the stare them down and step in front to force cars to stop, but Lord, those right turners are bad. I thin the right turn on red laws should be repealed since the "after a stop and when safe part is now an afterthought at best,
#49
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
They give the Nobel to the wrong cats
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#50
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
IT seems like the linked article is more that all lives lost in non-felony auto incidents are little punished. It's not about the bike. I know that as a pedestrian I have gotten much more aggressive in exerting my right of way, always trying to be on the lookout to dive or dodge out of the way if necessary. But now I take more the stare them down and step in front to force cars to stop, but Lord, those right turners are bad. I thin the right turn on red laws should be repealed since the "after a stop and when safe part is now an afterthought at best,
Even if they are supposed to stop and don't there's no sense at all physically confronting a car. I call dispatch and tell them to check it out if it's hairy-there's a really nice fine for not yielding and they sweep for that regularly anyway. They also don't like jaywalkers on divided streets (or any others)-we had some tourists die on one such street before they divided it as part of the new interchange over ten years ago.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.