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  1. #76
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txags92 View Post
    Which is exactly why groups like Critical Mass are such a terrible idea. Sure, you can go and block an intersection for 20 minutes and smile and stick your tongue out at all the drivers going ballistic in their cars. Great, glad you had fun! Now, the next time those same drivers see a cyclist out riding alone, how likely are they to think "I should move over and share the road." instead of "Finally, I found one by themselves...lets see if I can park them in a ditch!" Many times we as cyclists help fan the flames of that irrational hatred by not doing the easy little things that would engender some positive feelings with motorists. When you see a car behind you while riding two abreast, sure, maybe the other lane is clear and the car can go around...but how hard is it to move over to single file and make it easier for the car to pass you? We whine because the motorists get upset about a brief delay waiting behind us, but at the same time, sometimes we don't go out of our way to minimize that delay either. Before you get too sanctimonious about how impatient drivers are, think about how many times you have watched other cyclists exhibit bad manners and not "share the road" well and have kept quiet and not called them out for it? Sharing the road is a two way street, and if we can't convince other cyclists to be polite and courteous towards motorists, then what right do we have to expect the same from them?
    Cyclists do not start riding on the road with hate and discontent in their hearts... this is learned... and it is learned due to the way we are treated by motorists. And we're not talking all motorists, so again please do not paint with a broad brush... but cyclists learn hate and discontent when SOME motorists drive by too close and too fast, or when SOME motorists throw stuff at cyclists, or yell at cyclists... over time this stuff grates on a cyclist and the hate grows.

    I used to get off my bike every 6-7 years because I was just fed up with being a nice guy and trying to teach motorists to share the road while I followed the rules of the road. I would get so frustrated I would quit cycling for a while. Then the urge would come back and I'd get right back into the saddle... 6, 7, 8 years later I'd give up again... because the animosity thrown my way by people that think they own the road would just become too much.

    No, cyclists do not start out "hating" motorists, they are taught to hate. And motorists... SOME of them... what exactly is there problem... it isn't as if a cyclist is going to kill your family, or delay you so much that your dinner is cold... WTF. Enjoy your rolling couch and relax... how darn hard is it to push down a brake pedal or gas pedal anyway... sheesh.

    BTW I am in a period of not commuting right now... too darn many motorists with cell phones ignoring THEIR responsibilities to drive in a proper and safe manner.

  2. #77
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC1074 View Post
    Just check you tube. There are countless videos posted where cyclists confront drivers. Yes, car drivers do stupid things but actually tracking them & confronting them is a bad idea period. Just let it go and keep doing your thing. The video seems edited to me so its hard to tell what happened exactly but yea luckily it was a bat in the man's hand and not a ***. Sometimes you have to be the bigger person and keep going. Avoid confrontations. I would be crying if someone ran over my bicycle like that.
    How do you react when someone has thrown a full can of beer at your head? How do you react when someone comes up and smokes you with their diesel truck? How do you react when someone leans out a car window and slaps you?

    These are just a few of the incidents that you "have to be a bigger person for, eh?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    How do you react when someone has thrown a full can of beer at your head? How do you react when someone comes up and smokes you with their diesel truck? How do you react when someone leans out a car window and slaps you?

    These are just a few of the incidents that you "have to be a bigger person for, eh?"
    Yeah -- the only evidence of me being 'the bigger person' is my girth, in those cases. If it's a can of beer, hey -- get my attention first so I can catch it! If you're throwing it at me cuz you're ticked off, that's alcohol abuse. Seriously, though -- that's assault, unless you HIT me, THEN it's A & B; I'm coming for ya. Getting smoked...well, tough to do anything when you can't breathe. Slap? Pull it back QUICK, before I grab it and break your arm.

  4. #79
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Slapping a cyclist from inside a moving vehicle gets you jail time in my town. A&B at least. I have personal experience with this.

    Launching an object from a vehicle - hit or miss - is also taken very seriously.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 10-23-13 at 09:50 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Jimi, hyperbole won't win the day; your "buddy" is a person who'd do the same to YOU if he didn't recognize you on a bike. If you want to be a social 'snake handler', don't blame the rest of us when you get bit.

    If being at all popular is more important than what's right (which is NOT running down cyclists with a car), then WE don't wanna be friends with you. I have a co-worker, the only other person in my section, with whom I have always gotten along rather well; we have senses of humor that feed off each other. He's also a white supremacist, as well as a narcissist with borderline sociopathy (right & wrong for him are defined by what benefits him, even to the point of his marriage; when his wife was carrying son #2 , she was hormonal & grouchy -- he was ready to LEAVE!). I continue to gt along with him because it makes the workday go better. But the day will come when we no longer work together, and I won't look back for a second.

    I have cut off KIN who gave me haterade. My family was down & out a few years ago, I swallowed my pride & asked my mother for help; instead of saying yes or no, all she could do was grill me about why didn't I do this or that(none of which were options to us). We barely had a relationship after that; the last time I saw her before she passed in hospice was three days before. Even from that deathbed, she was giving me shat.

    Saintly? Not necessary. But there ARE limits, and a friend of mine who professes to hate and wishes to target people on the road LIKE me, exceeds those limits.

    With friends like THAT, you're better OFF friendless.
    That's great. I can live with the fact that he hates cyclist. Of course, I pretty much stay off roads given that besides haterz on the road, you have driving and texting, drinking and texting, stoned driving, eating and driving, just plain old don't know how to drive, etc, etc, etc.

  6. #81
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I could coax someone out of their vehicle nearly every day in the city, and have them sent to jail based on video evidence. I have better things to do and more street sense. Those weekend warriors in the video shown above could have likely acted in a way that did not draw violence from that maniac. Bunch of amateurs.
    I guess you didn't read the article, according to it, the cyclists did not need to coax this motorist out of his vehicle, and one of the cyclists has had a previous run in with the very same motorist, again, no coaxing needed.

    Is there video footage of the events leading up to the baseball bat?
    According to the article that I read, the cyclist only started videoing with his cell phone after the baseball bat incident started. We'll have to see if this incident spurs any of the cyclists to start using a full time video camera. It's unfortunate that a number of cyclists have to take up videoing in order to ride on the street or road these days, but incidents like this only reinforce it.

  7. #82
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnymoses View Post
    and motorists, never act like they own the road, ignore traffic laws, etc?
    No, not at all.
    I have numerous video clips of motorists running stop signs, stop lights, speeding, making illegal and unsafe passing maneuvers, etc.

  8. #83
    Senior Member kmv2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    Bicycle group rides are generally just plain rude to other road users. There are laws against motorists creating "rolling roadblocks" on multi-lane highways and I feel that bike group rides should be handled under the same law. One of our neighboring parishes (county) installed a law requiring more than 8 cyclists in a group to secure a parade permit before riding in the parish. There were all sorts of problems with New Orleans bike clubs clogging up those scenic 2-lane roads and highways in the country nearby. I rode with a club a few times before the law was enacted and I gotta say..."we" deserved it. I was too embarrassed to continue riding with those groups long before the permits were required.

    After the permits were required similar confrontations (as the OP) between local farmers/residents and cyclists dropped to zero.

    Blocking the road just because we can is bad form IMO. I can't blame the old geiser for WANTING to smash someones helmet in. Thankfully most folks won't go that far.
    Weird to hear this perspective from you..
    So one person's drive is more important than 8 or so people on a group ride? The driver can't wait a few seconds to pass safely?
    Sounds like you've been on too many critical mass rides (your videos attest to that style of riding). Any organized club ride I've been on is made up of riders who know what they are doing (you have to do the group ride clinic before you start to go on the rides) and how to manoeuvre properly.

  9. #84
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC1074 View Post
    Just check you tube. There are countless videos posted where cyclists confront drivers. Yes, car drivers do stupid things but actually tracking them & confronting them is a bad idea period. Just let it go and keep doing your thing. The video seems edited to me so its hard to tell what happened exactly but yea luckily it was a bat in the man's hand and not a ***. Sometimes you have to be the bigger person and keep going. Avoid confrontations. I would be crying if someone ran over my bicycle like that.
    Just about every incident that I had, I was "minding my own business" and following the rules of the road, but a number of motorists still cannot handle that as well, and why I have taken to videoing them. Agreed, that confrontation is generally not a good idea, since my last encounter was a wasted effort on my part, since I could not get a word in edgewise over their screaming tirade, which came about when I started writing down their vehicle license number.

    I have a fairly thick skin, but I will not let every incident go and keep doing my thing, and I will report motorists, that go out of their way to harass me or endanger my well being, to law enforcement.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Cyclists do not start riding on the road with hate and discontent in their hearts... this is learned... and it is learned due to the way we are treated by motorists. And we're not talking all motorists, so again please do not paint with a broad brush... but cyclists learn hate and discontent when SOME motorists drive by too close and too fast, or when SOME motorists throw stuff at cyclists, or yell at cyclists... over time this stuff grates on a cyclist and the hate grows.
    Lets try this in the opposite direction and see if you get my point...

    "Motorists do not start driving on the road with hate and discontent in their hearts... this is learned... and it is learned due to the way they are treated by cyclists. And we're not talking all cyclists, so again please do not paint with a broad brush... but motorists learn hate and discontent when SOME cyclists ride 2 and 3 abreast down busy roads, or deliberately block intersections for long periods of time during unpermitted group rides, or yell and make rude gestures at motorists... over time this stuff grates on a motorist and the hate grows."

    See...it really can work both ways. Which hatred comes first is a chicken or egg kind of problem. But the reality is that charlie foxtrots like Critical Mass don't do anything except escalate that hatred in motorists where it already existed and create new hatred in motorists where it didn't exist before. If we are the ones out there promoting "share the road", we have to be willing to accept that we have a responsibility to share it back. If we see cyclists riding 3 abreast when there are cars behind them wanting to pass, or we see people running stop signs and blocking intersections, we should be willing to call them out. If we want motorists to obey the rule of law that says bikes can be on the road, we need to start by obeying the laws ourselves. If we instead give in to frustration and anger and do things like Critical Mass that deliberately disobey the law and inflame tensions between cyclists and motorists, then we are to blame for anything that happens to us at the hands of motorists. We can't claim the high ground if we are not obeying the law ourselves.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by txags92 View Post
    Lets try this in the opposite direction and see if you get my point...

    "Motorists do not start driving on the road with hate and discontent in their hearts... this is learned... and it is learned due to the way they are treated by cyclists. And we're not talking all cyclists, so again please do not paint with a broad brush... but motorists learn hate and discontent when SOME cyclists slow the motorist down for 10 seconds..
    Fixed that for reality.

  12. #87
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Maybe your sense of reality achoo, but there is no evidence that your claim that auto drivers learn to hate cyclists because of 10 second delays. Some drivers become frustrated with cyclists for a variety of reasons, which probably includes being delays for a few seconds, plus lots of other reasons.

    But for those few who actually hate cyclists, I wonder if some cleaver advocacy type lawyer could initiate hate crime prosecution?
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  13. #88
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Fixed that for reality.
    Yeah, that's more like it. The way I see it is, the motorists in general don't like to be slowed down, no matter how illogical it is. Those cars that illegally pass me on my morning commute (by crossing the double yellow) usually get stopped at the next light, and I easily catch up before the light turns green. It means their illegal overtaking doesn't save them a single second. Worse yet, they probably consume more gas by unnecessarily accelerating, as well as causing the brakes to wear out more.
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  14. #89
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    Weird to hear this perspective from you..
    So one person's drive is more important than 8 or so people on a group ride? The driver can't wait a few seconds to pass safely?
    Sounds like you've been on too many critical mass rides (your videos attest to that style of riding). Any organized club ride I've been on is made up of riders who know what they are doing (you have to do the group ride clinic before you start to go on the rides) and how to manoeuvre properly.
    I don't know specifically about the rides that Joeybike is refereinng to, but in my area there is a pretty wide spectrum of clubs/group ride behavior

    most of these clubs/rides are very careful on riding single file, no red light running etc. The rides that seem to cause the most aggravation are groups of elite riders riding fast and hard and they often will block intersections, run reds, etc. the palo alto noon ride was notorious for this (some reports is that heavy police/sheriff monitoring has reduced this). Other rides like critical mass are in your face with blocking traffic. There is also a local ride San jose bike party that does take full lanes, but trys hard to not run reds/etc, with volunteers trying stop people. Even so there are usually some issues mostly with young inebriated males.

    point is that just like some drivers show no respect for cyclist (or other drivers), some cyclist don't show respect for other road users....usually in a group mentality type thing
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  15. #90
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    But for those few who actually hate cyclists, I wonder if some cleaver advocacy type lawyer could initiate hate crime prosecution?
    The only possible prosecution is if a hater takes action on that hate to cause harm to someone else. Though some A&S posters may disagree, the actual incidences of motorists taking deliberate actions to cause physical harm to cyclists are so seldom that clever advocacy type lawyers will look elsewhere for a payday.

    I doubt seriously that anybody (outside of A&S Land) will consider a shout of "get off the road" or similar non physical acts, or non contact careless driving incidents as hate crimes.

  16. #91
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    I was thinking of the drivers such as the topic of the original post, and the Dr in CA who appear to have taken matters into their own hands, not the typical jerk drivers (which are way less than 1% of all drivers in my opinion/observation).
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    I was thinking of the drivers such as the topic of the original post, and the Dr in CA who appear to have taken matters into their own hands, not the typical jerk drivers (which are way less than 1% of all drivers in my opinion/observation).
    One or two instances, every once in a blue moon, doesn't (IMO) merit the heated rhetoric found on A&S about cyclist hating motorists wreaking daily havoc on cyclists. I think this impression is most likely generated by the posters reading too many comments sections to blogs and online news items.

  18. #93
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Just about every incident that I had, I was "minding my own business" and following the rules of the road, but a number of motorists still cannot handle that as well, and why I have taken to videoing them.
    I find that NOT obeying so many rules helps me stay ahead of the traffic AND running a video camera fixes the rest.

  19. #94
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    Sounds like you've been on too many critical mass rides (your videos attest to that style of riding).
    Sunday group rides and Critical Mass rides accomplish basically the same thing: Polarization between motorists and cyclists. I do not partake, and wholly reject both actions as rude and offensive behavior that only reinforces the notion among the general public that cyclists are an arrogant bunch of knuckleheads.

  20. #95
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    I agree with ya ILTB. The inflammatory rhetoric here gets over the top. I'd probably be a healthier individual if I stopped reading A&S, but like when I used to smoke, its hard to quit.

    ANd +1 to ya Joey, your observations of the group ride/critical mass ethos is right on nin how they increase polarizations. I recall that way back when, when I was very involved in bike clubs we were very careful to ride on secondary roads, get into single file whenever any car approached, and even took the step of banning overly aggressive or dangerous riders from our rides. Now days we would likely get sued for such actions.
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  21. #96
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txags92 View Post
    Lets try this in the opposite direction and see if you get my point...

    "Motorists do not start driving on the road with hate and discontent in their hearts... this is learned... and it is learned due to the way they are treated by cyclists. And we're not talking all cyclists, so again please do not paint with a broad brush... but motorists learn hate and discontent when SOME cyclists ride 2 and 3 abreast down busy roads, or deliberately block intersections for long periods of time during unpermitted group rides, or yell and make rude gestures at motorists... over time this stuff grates on a motorist and the hate grows."

    See...it really can work both ways. Which hatred comes first is a chicken or egg kind of problem. But the reality is that charlie foxtrots like Critical Mass don't do anything except escalate that hatred in motorists where it already existed and create new hatred in motorists where it didn't exist before. If we are the ones out there promoting "share the road", we have to be willing to accept that we have a responsibility to share it back. If we see cyclists riding 3 abreast when there are cars behind them wanting to pass, or we see people running stop signs and blocking intersections, we should be willing to call them out. If we want motorists to obey the rule of law that says bikes can be on the road, we need to start by obeying the laws ourselves. If we instead give in to frustration and anger and do things like Critical Mass that deliberately disobey the law and inflame tensions between cyclists and motorists, then we are to blame for anything that happens to us at the hands of motorists. We can't claim the high ground if we are not obeying the law ourselves.
    The fact is that some motorists feel they own the road, they argue that they pay road fees and other taxes associated with driving a motor vehicle and therefore feel entitled to the road... They carry that entitlement forward and it festers into hate toward anyone/anything that happens to cause them minor delays. This concept is easily demonstrated by the reactions some motorists have toward other road users such as Amish who do NOT have CM, yet are also confronted with motorist hate.

    And again it is the minority of motorists that fester in this manner... but others easily jump on the bandwagon when it suits them... such as radio hosts that drum up hate speech.

  22. #97
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daihard View Post
    Yeah, that's more like it. The way I see it is, the motorists in general don't like to be slowed down, no matter how illogical it is. Those cars that illegally pass me on my morning commute (by crossing the double yellow) usually get stopped at the next light, and I easily catch up before the light turns green. It means their illegal overtaking doesn't save them a single second. Worse yet, they probably consume more gas by unnecessarily accelerating, as well as causing the brakes to wear out more.
    This has been my experience as well. And again (and ILTB says this) such actions are infrequent... but they do happen... and it can be rather disheartening to a cyclist to face this sort of thing from time to time, however rare.

  23. #98
    Senior Member kmv2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    I agree with ya ILTB. The inflammatory rhetoric here gets over the top. I'd probably be a healthier individual if I stopped reading A&S, but like when I used to smoke, its hard to quit.

    ANd +1 to ya Joey, your observations of the group ride/critical mass ethos is right on nin how they increase polarizations. I recall that way back when, when I was very involved in bike clubs we were very careful to ride on secondary roads, get into single file whenever any car approached, and even took the step of banning overly aggressive or dangerous riders from our rides. Now days we would likely get sued for such actions.
    Modern clubs are still like that, in that they teach the principals of how to ride in/as a group properly.. I think they would cease to exist if the members were breaking laws and causing animosity towards other road users. As for suing, we all carry insurance and sign a bunch of waivers before doing anything, so I don't think that's an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    Sunday group rides and Critical Mass rides accomplish basically the same thing: Polarization between motorists and cyclists. I do not partake, and wholly reject both actions as rude and offensive behavior that only reinforces the notion among the general public that cyclists are an arrogant bunch of knuckleheads.
    We're not riding 4 abreast and giving everyone the finger. If a queue forms behind, we adjust formation and/or try to switch roads. If things get dangerous you stop and get off the road. Last thing we want is to get hit or to provoke an incident. This is how a proper club organizes their rides.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I find that NOT obeying so many rules helps me stay ahead of the traffic AND running a video camera fixes the rest.

    I don't see how you think this doesn't cause polarization..

    Regardless of how we ride, we are still a minority by far. We meaning all of us, from the geeks to the geek slayers. The polarization is always going to exist for some motorists and there's not much we can do about it when our presence in any form is going to send some people into a rage.
    Last edited by kmv2; 10-24-13 at 01:39 PM.

  24. #99
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmv2 View Post
    I don't see how you think this [I find that NOT obeying so many rules helps me stay ahead of the traffic AND running a video camera fixes the rest.] doesn't cause polarization..
    My priorities on my bicycle are:

    1. Survive the next few blocks,

    2. Stay out of motorists way if they are behind me i.e., do almost anything to keep motorists from overtaking/following/passing me dangerously.

    Staying out of the way is POLITE and SAFE. If zero cars pass me, zero motorists will be annoyed by me "blocking" the road and I am safer at the same time. If running a red light contributes to #2 , then a few motorists might be annoyed at viewing this action, but I retain my safety.

    So...SAFETY is #1 . Then comes POLITE. All of the hundreds of motorists that DO NOT see me every day because I have disappeared over the horizon ahead of them have been treated politely by me even though they have no clue. The few that get bent seeing me run a light or two would be better off knowing that my scofflaw actions HELP BOTH OF US.

    (All of the above works in city grid environments and not generally rural areas)

    On rural roads I ride alone and generally see trouble coming well in advance (a line of cars approaching ahead and from behind me). If cars can't get around me I simply step to the side in the grass, sip some water, and let the mayhem go past. Then resume my ride. No old men need be crazed!
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 10-24-13 at 02:26 PM.

  25. #100
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    "As for suing, we all carry insurance and sign a bunch of waivers before doing anything, so I don't think that's an option."

    I need to clarify - Its the riders we banned from ridding with the club I fear would sue, to be allowed to ride with the group despite their dangerous antics.
    Recycle, Reclaim, Reuse and Repair
    The 4 Rs to save the planet

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