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-   -   NY Times Blog: "How Safe Is Cycling? Itís Hard to Say" (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/919009-ny-times-blog-how-safe-cycling-s-hard-say.html)

Barrettscv 10-22-13 08:59 AM

NY Times Blog: "How Safe Is Cycling? Itís Hard to Say"
 
Recent post at the NYT

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/1...-to-say/?_r=1&

ItsJustMe 10-22-13 09:03 AM

"It's not if you crash but when"

Well, yeah, if you're dumb enough to do a 35 MPH descent with a sharp turn at the bottom.

Also this article seems to be geared towards cycling as a sport, which is a minority of bicycling and stats for sport cyclists are probably not applicable to all cyclists.

Standalone 10-22-13 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 16181216)
"It's not if you crash but when"

Well, yeah, if you're dumb enough to do a 35 MPH descent with a sharp turn at the bottom.

Also this article seems to be geared towards cycling as a sport, which is a minority of bicycling and stats for sport cyclists are probably not applicable to all cyclists.

There, but for the grace of God, go I.

And thee. We all do make stupid mistakes. Smart people can do dumb things.

KonAaron Snake 10-22-13 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standalone (Post 16181304)
There, but for the grace of God, go I.

And thee. We all do make stupid mistakes. Smart people can do dumb things.

+1...I'm amazed at how many people here are perfect and never make a mistake while riding...since I know that I do and observe many others making them.

It's also not just under our control - everyone can have a bad day, including people we share oxygen with. I was stopped at a red when I got hit by a car - when it's not your day, it's not your day. Bottom line is...if you transverse miles by ANY form of transportation, there is a risk of accident, and when it's on a bike the results can be a lot worse. All any of us can do is improve the odds.

genec 10-22-13 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16181343)
+1...I'm amazed at how many people here are perfect and never make a mistake while riding...since I know that I do and observe many others making them.

It's also not just under our control - everyone can have a bad day, including people we share oxygen with. I was stopped at a red when I got hit by a car - when it's not your day, it's not your day. Bottom line is...if you transverse miles by ANY form of transportation, there is a risk of accident, and when it's on a bike the results can be a lot worse. All any of us can do is improve the odds.

How do you improve the odds against the rare meteor from the sky?

OK you've taken defensive cycling courses, you keep your head on a swivel, you are aware of those around you, you are predictable and follow the laws as best can be followed. You work to do everything right, and then along comes the black swan and plows right into you... what else could you have done.

On a bike a simple "fender bender" can be quite debilitating. The same collision in a car might leave you with a stiff neck, blown air bag and a dent. On a bike you might be in ER hanging on for life.

What could you have done to "improve the odds?"

Matariki 10-22-13 10:03 AM

The "room for debate" sidebar article was interesting as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...ould-be-equals

KonAaron Snake 10-22-13 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16181396)
How do you improve the odds against the rare meteor from the sky?

OK you've taken defensive cycling courses, you keep your head on a swivel, you are aware of those around you, you are predictable and follow the laws as best can be followed. You work to do everything right, and then along comes the black swan and plows right into you... what else could you have done.

On a bike a simple "fender bender" can be quite debilitating. The same collision in a car might leave you with a stiff neck, blown air bag and a dent. On a bike you might be in ER hanging on for life.

What could you have done to "improve the odds?"

Really? You didn't understand that very simple comment? What I wrote was an extremely simple post, most of which you just reiterated. I'll try and make this as simple as possible...

You can't control other people. Your overall odds of being in an accident IMPROVE with YOU being responsible, but they don't eliminate the chance of being in an accident. Using lights at night IMPROVE your visibility, and they improve your chances of being seen and not hit, but they don't eliminate the chance...you can still get hit by a drunken idiot.

There is behavior that IMPROVES your odds, but that's all it is...an improvement that won't cover all behavior...much of which you can't control. All of us are rolling the dice every time we leave the house...and all we can do is leverage the odds. So while riding responsibly, and using lights, improves your chances, it's not immunity from other people's stupidity or acts of God.

genec 10-22-13 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16181685)
Really? You didn't understand that very simple comment? What I wrote was an extremely simple post, most of which you just reiterated. I'll try and make this as simple as possible...

You can't control other people. Your overall odds of being in an accident IMPROVE with YOU being responsible, but they don't eliminate the chance of being in an accident. Using lights at night IMPROVE your visibility, and they improve your chances of being seen and not hit, but they don't eliminate the chance...you can still get hit by a drunken idiot.

There is behavior that IMPROVES your odds, but that's all it is...an improvement that won't cover all behavior...much of which you can't control. All of us are rolling the dice every time we leave the house...and all we can do is leverage the odds. So while riding responsibly, and using lights, improves your chances, it's not immunity from other people's stupidity or acts of God.

We are in full agreement. There is one other thing that can improve my odds for safety... and that is getting motorists to drive slower and pay attention on the road... they are the only piece of the puzzle that I cannot control, that is a huge factor in the outcome of any time on the road.

If we can make drivers more aware of their responsibilities, then all other road users will be safer.

But as long as the "rolling couch with a phone and cup holder" attitude prevails, other drivers, cyclists and pedestrians are all at risk.

The best way I see to improve the odds for me and anyone else is better training for motorists... it should start at the elementary school level and there should be subsequent sessions to teach better, safer road sharing and use, with a strong emphasis on the ethics and responsibility of driving a motor vehicle.

About 35,000 citizens are killed annually due to poor driving practices... if the same number of people were killed by a foreign invader, this would be considered a major issue requiring a strong response... but since this happens at the hands of motor vehicle drivers... we find society tends to ignore the continuing harm brought upon us from poor motor vehicle operators.

I-Like-To-Bike 10-22-13 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16181396)
What could you have done to "improve the odds?"

You could endlessly wail and gnash your teeth about evildoing motorists, law enforcement personnel, legal system, and/or government "b-crats", it doesn't do anything to "improve the odds" for anybody but makes the wailer/gnasher feel better if not superior.

KonAaron Snake 10-22-13 11:43 AM

So long as we keep viewing everyday drivers as the enemy, and as stereotypical fast food chomping sheep, we will have difficulty having dialogue.

Here's how it works - we're a flea speck of a minority even in areas that have lots of cyclists...less than 10% of road users in the most heavily cycle friendly areas. They are the majority...any conversation that doesn't recognize that simple reality...the reality that we are an inconsequential minority asking for consideration by a majority that we can inconvenience with different interests...is likely to go down a self righteous, unrealistic road.

expatbrit 10-22-13 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 16181216)
"It's not if you crash but when"

Isn't this the same for anything on two-wheels? (Or, the statement is -- if not the fact)

It is the drivers and their distracted environment that make me scared, as said elsewhere. Even as the minority, and the vast one, their lack of attention is dangerous to cyclist, motorcyclists, pedestrians, and other drivers. How on earth you wake folks up is the real question

KonAaron Snake 10-22-13 12:51 PM

I think you're missing the point...there are a lot of traffic users, and a certain percentage may make a mistake at any given time (including you). There is a risk to moving from A to B by any conveyance, and the wake up wishes seem to me to be a form of self denial - people sometimes mess up.

genec 10-22-13 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 16181740)
You could endlessly wail and gnash your teeth about evildoing motorists, law enforcement personnel, legal system, and/or government "b-crats", it doesn't do anything to "improve the odds" for anybody but makes the wailer/gnasher feel better if not superior.

Or we could work to change the education of those "evildoing motorists" rather than relying on the skimpy training they now get.

KonAaron Snake 10-22-13 01:05 PM

What did you have in mind? A cycling-centric work camp?

Pedaling will set you free?

I disagree that the issue is training, the issue is that a lot of people use the roads and there will be a percentage of problems.

genec 10-22-13 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16181788)
So long as we keep viewing everyday drivers as the enemy, and as stereotypical fast food chomping sheep, we will have difficulty having dialogue.

Here's how it works - we're a flea speck of a minority even in areas that have lots of cyclists...less than 10% of road users in the most heavily cycle friendly areas. They are the majority...any conversation that doesn't recognize that simple reality...the reality that we are an inconsequential minority asking for consideration by a majority that we can inconvenience with different interests...is likely to go down a self righteous, unrealistic road.

Remember the 35,000 people I mentioned that die each year in automobile collisions... they are not cyclists (not flea specs)... they are "other road users."

What about them? How can we prevent their deaths? Thus far the solution seems to be to make the cars more protecting for the occupants. Is that the ONLY solution?

KonAaron Snake 10-22-13 01:07 PM

You assume there is one, rather than an understood and acceptable risk for high speed transportation.

I think the new technology regarding warning systems and sensors provides a lot of promise...and I'd like to see legislation aimed at driving while using a cell.

agent pombero 10-25-13 08:19 AM

The best way to reduce the number of deaths of road users -- motorists,cyclists, and pedestrians -- is to make the driving of a personal vehicle more inconvenient, expensive, and more severe in legal consequences if the driver maims or kills some other road user.

dynodonn 10-25-13 08:38 AM

"Although many cyclists have strong opinions on the safety of their sport....."

The author of the article is fairly biased in their thoughts on how the majority of bicycles are used....almost like a news reporter using Formula One as an example on how motorists use their cars.

noisebeam 10-25-13 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agent pombero (Post 16191144)
The best way to reduce the number of deaths of road users -- motorists,cyclists, and pedestrians -- is to make the driving of a personal vehicle more inconvenient, expensive, and more severe in legal consequences if the driver maims or kills some other road user.

how do you propose making cycling more inconvenient and expensive?

rebel1916 10-25-13 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 16191203)
"Although many cyclists have strong opinions on the safety of their sport....."

The author of the article is fairly biased in their thoughts on how the majority of bicycles are used....almost like a news reporter using Formula One as an example on how motorists use their cars.

Uh, in the US, the vast majority of miles logged is undoubtedly for the purpose of recreation. Just because people do something else in China, or Holland, doesn't make it relevant to a NY Times story.

agent pombero 10-25-13 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noisebeam (Post 16192578)
how do you propose making cycling more inconvenient and expensive?

By eliminating the price of cheap gasoline as a talking point for US presidential elections. This feeds the demand from the public to believe they are entitled to cheap gas.

Quote:

Voters in Super Tuesday contests say gas prices were the most critical factor in their vote.
77% of those surveyed felt that gasoline prices would influence their vote (1). Pathetic.

Driving in Japan is very expensive. We need to do the same thing in the US. Licenses should cost $1500/year in every state, to be renewed every two years. Instead of subsidizing the price of gas, the US should tax it heavily like they do in Europe (2). Downtown city centers should be tolled. Every bridge should be tolled. Insurance rates should all go up 20%. None of these rate hikes should go up for commercial transportation, just for personal automobiles.

In a world how i envision it above, how many people will be driving? Watch driving rates plummet.

Sources
(1) http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/0...tial-election/
(2) http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news...l/usgas_price/

dynodonn 10-26-13 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel1916 (Post 16192837)
Uh, in the US, the vast majority of miles logged is undoubtedly for the purpose of recreation.

Still, the making of all bicycling activities as a "sport", just shows the bias thoughts by the article's author on how they perceive all cyclists and their activities. Recreational riding does not always have to include some form of competition riding.

rebel1916 10-26-13 12:47 PM

Sport does not mean competition necessarily. See rock climbing, skiing, paddling, etc. Like it or not, virtually everybody cycling in the US is doing it for physical fitness, recreation or to put it another way, sport.

dynodonn 10-26-13 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel1916 (Post 16194050)
See rock climbing, skiing, paddling, etc. Like it or not, virtually everybody cycling in the US is doing it for physical fitness, recreation or to put it another way, sport.

Sport.....an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature"

As for virtually everyone in the US cycling as a "sport", not so in my locale, where virtually every cyclist I see on the road is using a bicycle as a means of transportation. Now if you wish to consider my skills and a athletic prowess in working urban traffic as a "sport", so be it, but I consider it good use of Urban Survival Skills™

B. Carfree 10-26-13 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16182057)
What did you have in mind? A cycling-centric work camp?

Pedaling will set you free?

I disagree that the issue is training, the issue is that a lot of people use the roads and there will be a percentage of problems.

If a motorist passes a cyclist with a minimal margin for error, like a foot, even a small misjudgment is catastrophic. If a motorist gives a cyclist a huge buffer, like ten feet, then even if the cyclist falls down the consequences are minimal. Better trained motorists do the latter; JAMs do the former.

This was brought home to me this past week. I visited my old stomping grounds in NorCal. There are quite a few more folks riding there than anywhere in OR. Even when I went for a morning 100 km ride mid-week, I would encounter three or four dozen cyclists out doing the same thing, so the motorists have become "trained" to our existence. Without fail, they all changed lanes to pass. Here in OR, over a third of all motorists who pass me on suburban/rural roadways (where the law states a legal pass involves giving the cyclist room to fall over in the passer's direction) pass within three feet of me.

I agree with others here who say we need to change the culture on our roadways and strip motorists of their sense of entitlement.


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