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  1. #26
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    I would still opt to pass on a straightway instead of a curve, especially a curve sharp enough to warrant yellow warning arrows with passing traffic immediately before and after your pass. you must be a very experienced driver. thanks for sharing. we rarely get the viewpoint from a professional driver like yourself.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  2. #27
    Senior Member walrus1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
    Even when they're overtaking you from behind?
    I still make sure he sees me. Honestly, this doesn't come up very often since big rigs aren't legally allowed on surface streets without a special permit. Such crossover mirrors are legally required in New York State but that is yet another traffic law the NYPD chooses not to enforce.

  3. #28
    Senior member Dan Burkhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
    I would still opt to pass on a straightway instead of a curve, especially a curve sharp enough to warrant yellow warning arrows with passing traffic immediately before and after your pass. you must be a very experienced driver. thanks for sharing. we rarely get the viewpoint from a professional driver like yourself.
    It would not have been a safe place to pass a vehicle using the entire lane and travelling at or near highway speed, but a bike running to the right of the fog line at a maximum of 20 mph or so is a different matter.
    Here in Ontario at least, there is nothing in the traffic act that prohibits passing on solid lines. They are considered a guide.
    I chose to slow and give the young lady space as opposed to staying in the lane and brushing by. There would have been room to do that, and I'm sure she was used to having that happen riding on that road.
    The whole point of the video was that because she was highly visible, I had lots of time to anticipate the gap in opposing traffic and adjust my speed to give her that space.
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  4. #29
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
    It would not have been a safe place to pass a vehicle using the entire lane and travelling at or near highway speed, but a bike running to the right of the fog line at a maximum of 20 mph or so is a different matter.
    Here in Ontario at least, there is nothing in the traffic act that prohibits passing on solid lines. They are considered a guide.
    I chose to slow and give the young lady space as opposed to staying in the lane and brushing by. There would have been room to do that, and I'm sure she was used to having that happen riding on that road.
    The whole point of the video was that because she was highly visible, I had lots of time to anticipate the gap in opposing traffic and adjust my speed to give her that space.
    well, yeah I agree, going over the line was good. not sure why you quoted me to say that. I wasn't suggesting you stay in the lane.
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  5. #30
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    If nothing else, it's good to see how much care you took in creating both the videos and in driving responsibly. A model of professionalism. I hope all truck drivers are as sensible and responsible, they are well represented by you and your videos.

    Thanks!

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
    Honest question: Why not have a mirror extension on an angle, or a convex spot mirror, to cover some (or all) of that blind spot where you're just relying "primarily on judgement"?
    I'd be surprised if there wasn't a convex mirror placed below the mirror shown in the video. I think the OP didn't want to create a distraction from his primary message to cyclists by showing all the tools in the box that truckers have, especially since all too many truck drivers don't seem to know how to use some of their tools.

    It's actually difficult to sneak onto the right side of a skilled truck driver unnoticed, but in complex urban situations, it can be done because the driver only has one set of eyes and they can't be on everything at once.

  7. #32
    Senior member Dan Burkhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    I'd be surprised if there wasn't a convex mirror placed below the mirror shown in the video. I think the OP didn't want to create a distraction from his primary message to cyclists by showing all the tools in the box that truckers have, especially since all too many truck drivers don't seem to know how to use some of their tools.

    It's actually difficult to sneak onto the right side of a skilled truck driver unnoticed, but in complex urban situations, it can be done because the driver only has one set of eyes and they can't be on everything at once.
    You are exactly right. I do have a convex mirror under the main mirror, and another out on the fender, but they are not a 100% solution. The convex shape gives them a very wide angled view, but also creates distortion and makes objects appear much further away than they are. They are really only useful for spotting vehicles and objects tucked in near the front of the vehicle.
    In the vehicle shown, I'm sitting nearly 130 feet away from the rearmost part, and a convex mirror does not contribute much there.
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  8. #33
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    Dan, Thanks for putting these together, they help us cyclists see how other road users see us and the difficulty that their size and blind spots pose.

    Honesty, with vehicles that long, I really do think that extra signage/ blinking turn indicators ,or even school bus style swing out stop signs (modified as a turn indicators) should be used if the government or industry really cares about eliminating right hook crashes. But, until that happens, cyclists need to learn far more about other types of vehicles than they should have too. I do agree with the suicide side stickers being quite effective in helping to rethink passing tractor trailers on the right.

    Hopefully the next time the Trans Canadian Highway gets repaved, they will add wider shoulders to better accommodate other road users like cyclists.

  9. #34
    Senior member Dan Burkhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomgear View Post
    Hopefully the next time the Trans Canadian Highway gets repaved, they will add wider shoulders to better accommodate other road users like cyclists.
    Well, that would certainly be nice, but they repave large sections of it every year, and I don't see any sign of improvement in that area.
    The Ontario government recently announced an initiative to improve cycling infrastructure. With the vast amount of cycle touring across the province on the T Can, that would be a good place to start.
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  10. #35
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    Thanks for the thread. On the basis of it, I've just ordered a fluorescent yellow safety waistcoat with hi-vis reflective stripes. Forget cycle shops, look for an industrial clothing supplier. I've just ordered this for about £7 delivered:

    hi_vis.png

  11. #36
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Fortunately for me that double 53 foot trailer combinations are illegal in California, but I'm still aware of the blind spots that truck tractor/semi trailer operators have. On the OP's video, a multi camera setup would be a tremendous aid in eliminating several blind spots while making sharp turns for that tandem trailer behemoth.

    http://www.realworktrucks.com/blinds...a-systems.html

  12. #37
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    In my area two trailer rigs with a full length trailer in front and then a half length pup for the second trailer are very common. Have yet to see a double full length trailer like that one but it wouldn't surprise me. I have seen triple trailer rigs in Oregon that are just as long or longer then his double 53' rig.

    My experience with big rig truckers as a cyclist has been very good so far and of all the drivers on the road if I could choose only one group with which I would share the road with as a cyclist it would be them. I'm not saying they are all angels incarnate but I trust them on the roads way more then the "four wheels" idiots and even many of my fellow "two wheel" pedal-cyclists and motorcyclists. I have so far had two cases where a big rig driver has gone above and beyond the call of duty and protected me from a four wheel idiot, one of whom it was his own forward pilot car for his wide & over-size load (a giant bulldozer that was like 16-foot wide) which was driven by his boss and he stopped and physically got out of his truck and physically stood between me and his boss after his boss had tried to deliberately, literally, and physically sandwich me up against the guard rail with the pilot car. So I have a very high degree of respect for truckers, it must have taken incredible bravery and professional ethics for that trucker to take that stand.



    In specific reference to the two videos posted by the OP at the beginning of this thread:

    First Video ~
    Excellent, I don't think anyone could make any complaints about that one with the possible exception that a second camera (or second shoot) showing the same turn from the outside with the camera operator standing a little back from the corner and showing the approach and turn and how there is a massive "crush/squeeze" zone on the inside of such a turn would be an excellent addition. No complaints just a suggestion how it could be made even better.

    Second Video ~ Some people have been complaining that you passed on a turn over a double yellow line. I would agree that such is not the ideal situation, but one must also realize that real life rarely allows for ideal situations. From what I could see from the video cameras narrow view point that corner was gradual enough and with minimal visual obstructions on the inside of the corner to make passing a significantly slower moving vehicle that would only take a short time and distance gap to safely pass a "safe & sane" proposition. As to the legality of doing so separate from the "safe & sane" question, I am not familiar enough with the fine details of Ontario, Canada road laws to answer that question. I do know that in the U.S. in some states it is legal to pass a bicycle or other specifically legally defined "slow moving vehicle" over a double yellow provided the pass is made safely and with extra caution and care. In other states it is never legal to pass over a double yellow line. Either could be the case in Ontario, Canada or it could not be clearly defined on way or the other.

    If I were the cyclist in question and for some strange and bizarre reason I was taking the lane position she was riding in I would have no problem with the pass you made and would be appreciative of the fact you swung wide and made a straddle pass. As to what I would have done if I were the one driving a big truck (I've only got on-road experience with 6 & 10 wheel 2-5 ton trucks under the agricultural and private use exception) in that exact situation:

    ----- IF I was absolutely sure I didn't have anyone close on my tail then I would have swung out wider on that pass then you did. Being sure to fully go into the oncoming lane before going around her which lets me see further around the corner so I could abort and hit the brakes and pull back in behind her if that longer vision around the corner showed me oncomming traffic too close to make the pass and also to give her full lane width clearance while passing.
    ----- BUT if I did have anyone on my tail I would have made a straddle pass like you did, being sure to straddle out ASAP for the extra vision length gained around the corner and still give myself enough room to abort if necessary. But being sure straddle pass so as to not leave enough room on my right side between me and the cyclist so as to tempt a potential aggressive behind me to try to pass me on the right, squeezing between me and the cyclist, while I was swinging wide into the oncoming lane to give the cyclist as much room as possible during the pass. From other videos you have posted OP I think you can understand that such a crazy move by an aggressive from behind is possible and something that should be guarded against and why a straddle pass that puts you closer to the cyclist then a full lane change pass may actually be safer for the cyclist in order to block such an aggressive move by a tailgater from behind.

    If the corner were much tighter then that and/or had more visual obstructions higher and closer in on the inside of the corner reducing length of visibility and/or the speed differential between me as the truck driver and the cyclist was not as high as shown in the video I would have seriously considered waiting to pass until a better spot. But I agree that I would have passed under the exact same conditions as you did although if I knew no-one was close behind me I might have swung out wider but I have no idea whether you had anyone behind you or not and my experience with lighter trucks has shown me that it is rare that you don't have at least one car tailgating you almost all the time when your driving a truck so I think its safe to assume you did have someone behind you which is an excellent reason to straddle pass in order to block an aggressive trying to pass on your right squeezing between you and the cyclist if you swing all the way out.



    As to why I consider the cyclist in question to be using absolutely terrible lane positioning and where I would be riding if I were that cyclist:




    "Get IN" or "Get OUT" do not ride in the "Slice Zone" tempting overtaking traffic to pass too closely staying in the lane and not crossing the yellow line with oncoming traffic coming the other way and hurt or kill you when the right edge of their vehicle and protrusions "slice" you in a sliding high speed contact situation. That is my moto and how I ride. That cyclist was riding right in the "Slice Zone" on a high speed highway with narrow lanes, a very dumb position to ride in that maximizes potential dangers. Not far enough to the right and out of the main stream of traffic to make any significant difference in minimizing the hazards of being hit from behind by an overtaking vehicle (regardless of the reason why) and not far enough to the left to discourage close passes or right-hook & left-T-cross dangers. Taking a position either further to the right on the agreeably far less then ideal shoulder surface or even being further out in the lane to the left would be better choices that would at least minimize one category of the danger rather then being in a position like that which maximizes the too close pass danger and minimizes none of the other dangers. That cyclist is using the worst possible lane position, either "Get IN" or "Get OUT" !!!
    Last edited by turbo1889; 10-27-13 at 11:26 AM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post

    ....My experience with big rig truckers as a cyclist has been very good so far and of all the drivers on the road if I could choose only one group with which I would share the road with as a cyclist it would be them. ....
    +1

    IME. the best, safest and most courteous drivers I share the road with are in order, public bus drivers, fleet truck drivers and independents pulling trailers, Fedex, UPS and USPS. All the above are fairly close and much better than the average motorist, and small company truck and van drivers.

    Of special note to anyone with school age children, among the worst overall are school bus drivers, who rarely signal turns, race yellow lights and pass across double lines, and with limited sight distance.
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  14. #39
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    In my area two trailer rigs with a full length trailer in front and then a half length pup for the second trailer are very common. Have yet to see a double full length trailer like that one but it wouldn't surprise me. I have seen triple trailer rigs in Oregon that are just as long or longer then his double 53' rig.
    In my recent trip to Montana, I did see a number of triples on the interstates that I was traveling, personally, I would say that the triples looked liked that they would have less of an issue in making sharp turns than a full length double.


    As to why I consider the cyclist in question to be using absolutely terrible lane positioning and where I would be riding if I were that cyclist:
    The cyclist's lane choice was probably a product of waffling between tire damage/ride comfort due to the considerable roadside debris, and the speed differential of rear approaching traffic.

  15. #40
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomgear View Post
    . . . Hopefully the next time the Trans Canadian Highway gets repaved, they will add wider shoulders to better accommodate other road users like cyclists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
    Well, that would certainly be nice, but they repave large sections of it every year, and I don't see any sign of improvement in that area.
    The Ontario government recently announced an initiative to improve cycling infrastructure. With the vast amount of cycle touring across the province on the T Can, that would be a good place to start.

    I absolutely agree that decent width and condition paved shoulder edges are one of the very best solutions for improving cyclist safety along high speed highways (not necessarily the case with low speed roads) while at the same time improving safety for all other users of the road as well since wider shoulder edges make all road users safer by allowing more margin for correcting "opps" situations without a collision either signal or multi-vehicle occurring.

    This is what I love to see as a cyclist on high speed highways and I am very comfortable shoulder edge riding to the right of the white line on roads that look like this:







    On low speed roads, especially stop-&-go, in-town, square-grid traffic patterns this is much more my style, rather then shoulder edge riding:


  16. #41
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    . . . The cyclist's lane choice was probably a product of waffling between tire damage/ride comfort due to the considerable roadside debris, and the speed differential of rear approaching traffic.
    The solution for that problem is known as "Hookworms or Big-Apples with puncture proof full width protection liners".

  17. #42
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    The solution for that problem is known as "Hookworms or Big-Apples with puncture proof full width protection liners".
    Maybe the cyclist in the OP video has made the switch, or she just reached her destination without incident. We need BF member Machka to chime in on how she would have handle that situation, since she probably has cycled that section of highway a time or two.
    Last edited by dynodonn; 10-27-13 at 01:47 PM.

  18. #43
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Or maybe she isn't aware of other tire options (such as I mentioned) that mitigate the rough pavement and debris on the shoulder edge issue or has been taught or bullied into the "riding the white line" method of road cycling (I have personally been harassed by white line riding style cyclists who think it is the only proper way to ride a bicycle on the road, apparently they believe the white line is a 2-4 inch wide bicycle lane).

    Tell you one thing though, I changed over the tires on my fathers wife's old single speed cruiser bicycle to 26" hookworms with full width liners when she needed a tire change a couple summers ago because she had worn out her old tires and now she won't ever let me put anything less then that kind of a combination on her bike for sure. Once she found out what that kind of combination could do and that she could practically just ride through anything up to and including giant pot-holes filled with broken glass and up and over curb edges that aren't slopped she ain't ever going back. I even ended up having to upgrade the tires and wheels on the littlest ones bike after a while because she kept tearing up her bike trying to follow Mom.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 10-27-13 at 02:35 PM.

  19. #44
    Senior member Dan Burkhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Or maybe she isn't aware of other tire options (such as I mentioned) that mitigate the rough pavement and debris on the shoulder edge issue or has been taught or bullied into the "riding the white line" method of road cycling (I have personally been harassed by white line riding style cyclists who think it is the only proper way to ride a bicycle on the road, apparently they believe the white line is a 2-4 inch wide bicycle lane).

    Tell you one thing though, I changed over the tires on my fathers wife's old single speed cruiser bicycle to 26" hookworms with full width liners when she needed a tire change a couple summers ago because she had worn out her old tires and now she won't ever let me put anything less then that kind of a combination on her bike for sure. Once she found out what that kind of combination could do and that she could practically just ride through anything up to and including giant pot-holes filled with broken glass and up and over curb edges that aren't slopped she ain't ever going back. I even ended up having to upgrade the tires and wheels on the littlest ones bike after a while because she kept tearing up her bike trying to follow Mom.
    I run Hookworms on my recumbent and bob trailer, Marathon Plus on all my other bikes. Puncture and pinch flats have become a foreign concept to me.
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  20. #45
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    Great video-thanks.Yikes that double trailer is HUGE!
    In general profession truck drivers are very rarely a problem for bike riders or car drivers.
    City Bus drivers-occasionally a problem. They are under time pressure-sometimes they push too hard.
    Thanks
    Charlie

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