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  1. #26
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    Genec
    San Diego AGAIN??
    This was 9-7-2013
    The SIGN(run over bike riders-no head on crashes)- also San Diego- was after this right?? But fairly close in time.

    What's up in your city?
    Much chance THE SWERVE was intentional?
    Does the Owner or room mates have any history of this? Any local bike forums ,bike shop talk, bike riders saying "yeah I was strafed by a suburu like that one"
    What is the general feeling-just an idiot texting-hit and run or INTENTIONAL-??
    Usually folks who do this intentionally-it isn't there first dance.
    Just how much ill will is there between bike riders and drivers??
    ACCIDENT OR INTENTIONAL?
    Anyone google these folks-what do they do etc? Students businessmen thugs criminals run over bike riders ???

  2. #27
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    The owner of the vehicle cannot just dismiss this as he was out of town. He is the legal and registered owner of the car. If he left the keys accessible to and/or authorized anyone else to drive the car, he is responsible. If one of those drivers was not licensed, he could be criminally responsible. He should be taken to civil court for this.

    Basically, he had to come clean if he was driving or report the car stolen and was probably told indirectly by the police to do just that. This will put more focus on the roommates and could/should backfire on him as the investigation continues. Since there was an ER visit, there was injury and if the victim presses the police, there should be a further investigation.

  3. #28
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    Yes, San Diego, again... and yes, this is where the sign about hitting cyclists also came up... although that occurred well into the east county rural area.

    The area is quite a dichotomy. We have a wonderful climate here (keeps me here) that should be ideal for cyclists... but the political climate is very conservative... hence "Share the Road" signs vice "Cyclist may use Full Lane" and a So Cal mentality that worships the motor vehicle.

    The sign incident is many miles and a whole different situation away.

    I can't be totally negative about the police enforcement here... my encounters with cops have always been positive, and back in the 80s when I was hit by a car and knocked unconscious, the offending motorist was ticketed and I won a civil suit. (technically in La Mesa). I was visited in the hospital by the ticketing officer who was just trying to fill in the gaps.

    The fact is there are a lot of cars here, and a lot of high speed (55MPH) multilane roads... but certain isolated areas can be very friendly to cyclists... so it really is a mixed bag.

    Oh and one should understand that the San Diego reference is also a reference to the county... which is also named San Diego... the county is huge... stretches from the Pacific Ocean, over the mountains to the east and into the desert. Usually when they give weather reports, such reports encompass 4 major regions with different climates... coastal, inland, mountain and desert... and the weather can be such that we have snow in the mountains and people playing on the beaches on the same day.
    Last edited by genec; 11-20-13 at 02:06 PM.

  4. #29
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    A large range of items are held by police until investigations and trials are completed. If the item were a knife or a ***, would it be returned to the owner before the trial was completed and the judge ordered it to be returned?

    You say, but a car is more expensive. Well lets say the *** was an antique worth a million dollars. Would the police return the *** because of the value. If the car was only worth $500, should it still be returned, it could easily be replaced.

    You now say, but the car is a necessity. What if the *** belonged to a armored car security guard who is required to be armed and cannot work without a ***. Would the police return the ***?

    Why are cars considered different than other critical evidence in cases like this?

    If the cars owner was out of town, he still likely knows who was driving HIS car and is currently engaged in hindering prosecution.
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  5. #30
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Interesting point CBHI. And in this case, since the odds are far in favor of one of the roommates having taking the car, it would seem appropriate to impound during the "investigation". But, say it was not one of the roommates, and the car was stolen, how long should it be held from a blameless rightful owner if no culprit can be identified?
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  6. #31
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    Interesting point CBHI. And in this case, since the odds are far in favor of one of the roommates having taking the car, it would seem appropriate to impound during the "investigation". But, say it was not one of the roommates, and the car was stolen, how long should it be held from a blameless rightful owner if no culprit can be identified?
    Car thieves do not return the car to the owners driveway within 24 hours as apparently claimed in this case.

    In a hypothetical case, the same rules for stolen guns should apply to stolen cars. If the police return the stolen *** before trial, then I am OK with them returning the stolen car.
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  7. #32
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Yes in this case there was not a theft, but I got to wondering about the return of stolen items especially cars that may have been used in a crime after stolen, then recovered. Mostly I was feeling sorry for an innocent owner who has no way to get to work until the stolen car is returned. I guess they could always ride a bike.
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  8. #33
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    Yes in this case there was not a theft, but I got to wondering about the return of stolen items especially cars that may have been used in a crime after stolen, then recovered. Mostly I was feeling sorry for an innocent owner who has no way to get to work until the stolen car is returned. I guess they could always ride a bike.
    With the exception of guns and knives, my guess is that most stolen items are processed, photographed and then returned.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnymoses View Post
    Did you actually read up on the story? .
    Yes, I read the story. The owner asserted that he was out of town at the time, and there was no mention of whether the police confirmed or disproved the alibi. We know that the car hit the cyclist, but have no clear evidence of who was at the wheel.

    The car alone is enough for civil damages award for the injuries to the cyclist (if CA law is similar to NY law) and there's little debate about that.

    However for a criminal prosecution for leaving the scene (the collision itself isn't a crime unless DWI or other factors were involved) the state has to put a specific human behind the wheel at the time. My reference from the kid from the hood was hyperbole, maybe I should have said the man in the moon, but that doesn't matter.

    It isn't the burden of the likely suspects to prove it wasn't them, but the burden of the state to prove it was.

    I know we all hate hit and run drivers (include me) and we all hate to see folks get away with murder (term of speech), but I can't believe so many have a problem with the concepts of burden of proof, and innocent until proven guilty. Process of elimination is a way to winnow the likely suspects, but after that EVIDENCE of participation in the crime is necessary.

    BTW- I don't understand the after the fact report of a stolen car, and why the police accepted it instead of saying "it isn't stolen, it was in your driveway and now we have it". Of course, if the owner himself were out of town for those eight days, his claim is perfectly valid from his point of view.

    Look at it this way. Let's assume for the moment that the owner's alibi is ironclad, leaving the two roommates. And lets further grant that it's crystal clear and bullet poof that there are absolutely no possibilities other than those two. So how does the prosecutor decide which to charge, or does he charge both under the theory of being at least half right.

    As far as I'm concerned, (lacking any other other evidence), anyone who feels that the owner and/or either or both roommates should be prosecuted for the crime of leaving the scene, is living in the wrong country.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by FBinNY; 11-21-13 at 01:55 PM.
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  10. #35
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    FBinNY-
    So without a witness-one who will swear he saw one of them driving and hitting the rider
    or one of the room mates-having a falling out with the perp-and convincingly ratting one of his former buddies out-
    That is it-no hard evidence of " exactly who did it" no charges
    Especially since no one was killed or seriously injured-cops can't spend lots of time squeezing these guys-
    So it is DONE-
    unless one of them rats one day-entirely possible

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    FBinNY-
    So without a witness-one who will swear he saw one of them driving and hitting the rider
    or one of the room mates-having a falling out with the perp-and convincingly ratting one of his former buddies out-
    That is it-no hard evidence of " exactly who did it" no charges
    Especially since no one was killed or seriously injured-cops can't spend lots of time squeezing these guys-
    So it is DONE-
    unless one of them rats one day-entirely possible
    Yep, that's about it from the criminal aspect.

    As I said, that doesn't mean the victim can't or won't get justice for the collision itself via insurance or a civil action against the owner.

    Criminals get away with stuff all the time. It's the price we pay (most of us willingly) for a system that protects the innocent. If you consider the alternative, it's not really a bad deal.
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  12. #37
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Yes, I read the story. The owner asserted that he was out of town at the time, and there was no mention of whether the police confirmed or disproved the alibi. We know that the car hit the cyclist, but have no clear evidence of who was at the wheel.

    The car alone is enough for civil damages award for the injuries to the cyclist (if CA law is similar to NY law) and there's little debate about that.

    However for a criminal prosecution for leaving the scene (the collision itself isn't a crime unless DWI or other factors were involved) the state has to put a specific human behind the wheel at the time. My reference from the kid from the hood was hyperbole, maybe I should have said the man in the moon, but that doesn't matter.

    It isn't the burden of the likely suspects to prove it wasn't them, but the burden of the state to prove it was.

    I know we all hate hit and run drivers (include me) and we all hate to see folks get away with murder (term of speech), but I can't believe so many have a problem with the concepts of burden of proof, and innocent until proven guilty. Process of elimination is a way to winnow the likely suspects, but after that EVIDENCE of participation in the crime is necessary.

    BTW- I don't understand the after the fact report of a stolen car, and why the police accepted it instead of saying "it isn't stolen, it was in your driveway and now we have it". Of course, if the owner himself were out of town for those eight days, his claim is perfectly valid from his point of view.

    Look at it this way. Let's assume for the moment that the owner's alibi is ironclad, leaving the two roommates. And lets further grant that it's crystal clear and bullet poof that there are absolutely no possibilities other than those two. So how does the prosecutor decide which to charge, or does he charge both under the theory of being at least half right.

    As far as I'm concerned, (lacking any other other evidence), anyone who feels that the owner and/or either or both roommates should be prosecuted for the crime of leaving the scene, is living in the wrong country.
    I don't think anyone really has an issue with innocent until proven guilty... what we have a hard time with is the appearance of a lie being told by someone, based on the lack of further investigation by police to confirm the alibi and the fact that car thieves rarely return a car to the spot from which it was stolen... in other words, the story stinks to high heaven... coupled with the fact that a cyclist was injured.

    Maybe everyone is telling the truth... in which case a car thief returned the car, or the car did the deed itself... neither very plausible. But the fact is a cyclist was hit and it could have been anyone of us in the same bike shoes.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post

    .....Maybe everyone is telling the truth... in which case a car thief returned the car, or the car did the deed itself... neither very plausible. But the fact is a cyclist was hit and it could have been anyone of us in the same bike shoes.
    Of course not. It's nearly 100% certain, or maybe it is 100% certain that either the owner or one of the roommates is guilty, and there's a good likelihood that one or both of the others knows and is lying. References to a 4th party thief, or the man in the moon are hyperbolic.

    So keeping in mind that the only criminal act here is leaving the scene, how would you proceed if you were the police or prosecutor? I don't know about California, but here in NY where prosecutors can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich, I doubt one could get an indictment in this case.
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  14. #39
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    okay let's take your theory that there is no other possibility except that it was one of the two roommates and also that the owner of the car has an ironclad alibi. unless the owner and the roommates are on extremely excellent terms (like lovers or friends with benefits), does it not seem reasonable that the owner of the car would want to see to it that either of the roommates be held responsible (and possibly pay for the damage done to the car)? I don't know about anyone else but no matter how well I got along with my roommate, if they got in an accident with my car, there is no way in hell I would report my car stolen in an attempt to cover up their wrongdoing. I would go after them like a fly to poo to make sure they owned up to the damage they inflicted. Aw well, just musing and like everyone has said, chances are very likely that nothing will ever come of this case, which really makes some people look like monsters.

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Of course not. It's nearly 100% certain, or maybe it is 100% certain that either the owner or one of the roommates is guilty, and there's a good likelihood that one or both of the others knows and is lying. References to a 4th party thief, or the man in the moon are hyperbolic.

    So keeping in mind that the only criminal act here is leaving the scene, how would you proceed if you were the police or prosecutor? I don't know about California, but here in NY where prosecutors can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich, I doubt one could get an indictment in this case.
    Since the proof has to be a particular driver in the car at that scene... first we find out if the alibi is valid... is there any proof that the owner was out of town... check cell phone records for all three in an attempt to establish location. Then check to see if there is a nearby business that may have a camera in the area. Last, run a story in the news and hope that one of the witnesses (mentioned in the story) comes forth.

    Other than that, I don't believe there is a conclusive way to prove who was there. You can prove who wasn't there, but to prove who was there, is a different burden.

    One more thing... question each separately and see if their tales all match... we are pretty sure there is a lie taking place... so perhaps the details of the the three stories would point to the guilty party.

    But bottom line, none of that will happen... "it was only a cyclist."

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Since the proof has to be a particular driver in the car at that scene... first we find out if the alibi is valid... is there any proof that the owner was out of town... check cell phone records for all three in an attempt to establish location. Then check to see if there is a nearby business that may have a camera in the area. Last, run a story in the news and hope that one of the witnesses (mentioned in the story) comes forth.

    Other than that, I don't believe there is a conclusive way to prove who was there.
    If the case is considered serious enough for a thorough investigation the police could also check financial records to see if any of the three used a credit or debit card at a nearby business around the time in question. If they did then there would be the possibility of getting witnesses from the businesses who saw the driver of the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnymoses View Post
    does it not seem reasonable that the owner of the car would want to see to it that either of the roommates be held responsible (and possibly pay for the damage done to the car)? I don't know about anyone else but no matter how well I got along with my roommate, if they got in an accident with my car, there is no way in hell I would report my car stolen in an attempt to cover up their wrongdoing. .
    I still don't get the intent or effect of the stolen car report 8 days later, but that's for the owner, cops and lawyers to thrash out.

    In any case, if I were the car owner under identical circumstances I'd throw both roommates out on their ears. As an individual, I'm not bound by innocent until proven... so if in doubt, I'd toss both.

    OTOH- the state is bound by the rules of evidence, and the beyond a reasonable doubt standard.
    These kinds of cases are frustrating, but as has been said many times, "it's a court of law, not a court of justice."
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    If the case is considered serious enough for a thorough investigation the police could also check financial records to see if any of the three used a credit or debit card at a nearby business around the time in question. If they did then there would be the possibility of getting witnesses from the businesses who saw the driver of the car.
    I have no idea what the police or DA's investigator did or didn't do, but a blanket assumption that they did nothing or didn't care "because it was a bicycle" is insulting, ans shows a disregard or at least disrespect for rule of law. Fact is they did impound the car and check for evidence. Having done that I doubt they quit without making a reasonable effort to pin this down to an individual.

    Leaving the scene is epidemic in California, and some cities report that it occurs in almost 1/2 of all accidents. I suspect that if the DA felt he had a makeable case, he'd pursue it in an effort to make an example of the driver.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I have no idea what the police or DA's investigator did or didn't do, but a blanket assumption that they did nothing or didn't care "because it was a bicycle" is insulting, ans shows a disregard or at least disrespect for rule of law. Fact is they did impound the car and check for evidence. Having done that I doubt they quit without making a reasonable effort to pin this down to an individual.

    Leaving the scene is epidemic in California, and some cities report that it occurs in almost 1/2 of all accidents. I suspect that if the DA felt he had a makeable case, he'd pursue it in an effort to make an example of the driver.
    Assuming the driver's alibi held up, there really isn't much that can be done. Its pretty standard practice to leave roommates with access to your car, in case it needs to be moved etc. Based on the police investigation, I'm going to assume that the driver's alibi held up. After all it takes almost nothing to prove, and since they went to the effort of impounding the car, if it hadn't they would probably be persuing things much more if it doesn't hold up. The police do not appreciate being lied to.

    The driver's insurance is clearly financially responsible, but there's really no way to go forward with any criminal charges without someone willing to admit something. Even video evidence will likely be totally unclear. Faced with limited resources and no clear path forward, the police are kind of stuck. The only realistic hope is that someone else comes forward and says, "Yeah, he borrowed the car to meet at X place on that day."

    The stolen report is likely to file a claim with the for damages to the car with his own insurance company. Clearly, none of the roommates are going to fess up and pay for it. If the vehicle was "stolen" even by a roommate the insurance will want to see police report.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I still don't get the intent or effect of the stolen car report 8 days later, but that's for the owner, cops and lawyers to thrash out.
    The owner and his insurance are no longer held responsible for damages caused with the car being stolen.

    See the owner is now trying to avoid having his insurance rate jacked up and avoid being sued directly, by claiming the car was stolen. Someone has talked to the owner, maybe his insurance agent, about how to slim out of responsibility.

    That is why the cops need to hit this BS hard and get some justice for the victim. If it is allowed to stand as is, the victim can only recover his loss from his OWN insurance, if he happens to have any. I have seen exactly this happen in Hawaii, even when I witnessed and identified the two people via photo line-up who were in the car. It that case, the cyclist auto insurance payed for his medical bills (less deductible). His bicycle did not get payed for.
    Last edited by CB HI; 11-21-13 at 05:42 PM.
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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
    The stolen report is likely to file a claim with the for damages to the car with his own insurance company. Clearly, none of the roommates are going to fess up and pay for it. If the vehicle was "stolen" even by a roommate the insurance will want to see police report.
    No, his insurance company would have to pay for that (assuming he carries collision) anyway (less deductible). Yes the insurance company would want to see a police report, but it would not need to be a stolen car report.

    So in this case, the car owner still gets covered and the cyclist likely gets screwed.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    The owner and his insurance are no longer held responsible for damages caused with the car being stolen.

    See the owner is now trying to avoid having his insurance rate jacked up and avoid being sued directly, by claiming the car was stolen. Someone has talked to the owner, maybe his insurance agent, about how to slim out of responsibility.

    That is why the cops need to hit this BS hard and get some justice for the victim. If it is allowed to stand as is, the victim can only recover his loss from his OWN insurance, if he happens to have any.
    California Law would have to be very strange for this ploy to work. There's a difference between theft and unauthorized use. To support a case that the car was in fact stolen, the owner would have o get past the fact that it was found in his own driveway after the accident, and presumably when the police impounded the car they would have noted that the ignition lock wasn't defeated.

    As I've said, laws vary by state, but if CA is anything like NY liability and insurance attach to the car, not the driver so the car's owner and insurance carrier are liable for the civil damages. Possibly the late claim of theft might insulate the owner from a personal suit for negligence for leaving the keys with his roommates, especially if they didn't have driver's licenses.

    BTW- to all cyclists who also own cars. Many car policies have a very low cost option extending your personal injury protection to any accident where a motor vehicle is involved. This gives you primary insurance if you're hit by a car while walking or bicycling. Years ago (before I took my car off the road) I used to pay a very nominal price (less than $10 or so) for this option, which made it, far and away, the cheapest form of bicycle accident insurance.

    Currently my only accident insurance is (ironically) from my dive insurance, but I have to have my accident more than 150 miles from home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    In any case, if I were the car owner under identical circumstances I'd throw both roommates out on their ears. As an individual, I'm not bound by innocent until proven... so if in doubt, I'd toss both.

    As far as I'm concerned, (lacking any other other evidence), anyone who feels that the owner and/or either or both roommates should be prosecuted for the crime of leaving the scene, is living in the wrong country
    Getting mixed prejudice here

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    Quote Originally Posted by ursle View Post
    Getting mixed prejudice here
    I don't think so. There's a gulf between what someone does as an individual, and the standard for state action.
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    I believe that NY insurance law tends to be the odd ball out.

    The car was stolen ploy is not uncommon for those trying to avoid liability.

    And the unauthorized driver is not really any different, as that was the declared reason the insurance refused to pay out in the case I witnessed.

    -------------------------
    I was trying to avoid a long post, but here goes.

    I was at a soccer field stretching out, getting ready to referee a soccer game. I see a car drive up on a side street, a man and women get out. The woman was driving. I note it appeared odd as the woman was in a bathing suit with wrap around, but there was no beach access in that area. The man stops halfway down the block walking towards the main highway for the area and lights a cigarette, appearing to be stalling; he is unsteady and appears somewhat intoxicated. The woman looks upset and appears to want the man to hurry up. I here a siren but do not see an ambulance. After the cigarette is done, the man throws the empty cigarette package on the ground along with the cigarette. Pissed me off so I looked at the cars license plate and note how close it was to one of the JAMs that too often harassed me.

    The couple continued to the highway and out of my sight. I picked up the cigarette package and stuffed it through a partially open window in the car, noting a bunch of toddler toys in the back.

    Several minutes later, the couple walks back and stops on the sidewalk, and the women is really upset now. Looks like some type of domestic dispute, so I carefully look at both their faces, hair and body types, note the woman is about 38 and man in his 40's, just in case the man harms the woman. The man finally convinces the woman to go back to the car. The woman refuses to get in the drivers side and throws the keys at the man. The man does not want to drive, argues with the woman, but he eventually gets in the driver seat and they drive off.

    Fifteen minutes later, a friend of mine walks onto the soccer field and starts talking to me. He tells me he just witnessed a cyclist hit and run in the bike lane on the highway just out of view from where we were standing. Snap, now I understand the odd behavior of the couple. I ask my friend if he saw the couple walk up to the scene. He said yes. I asked my friend if the hit and run car was a fucia colored mini-station wagon. He said yes. I told him the couple were the ones that hit the cyclist.

    A cop pulled into the soccer field parking lot to get my friends witness statement. I went over, reported what I saw. By that time, it was 30 minutes since I read the plate #, but I got it within one letter (good enough for a PI to track the car down with car description, two decals on the back and unusual car color).

    In the end, the cyclist lawyer told me the cyclist car insurance had to pay the medical - broken hip, leg and internal injuries with long hospital stay (same company as mine - thus I had to pay part of the cyclist medical). No one payed for the bike.

    The police did not push on who was driving. The 38 year old woman’s mom owned the car and had loaned it to her. The man and the woman both claimed the other was driving at the time of the collision. In my mind, I have no doubt that the man was driving when the cyclist was hit, he refused to drive back to the scene, so the woman made him change seats and she drove back one block from and out of sight of the scene. The prosecutor did not press on who was really driving and refused to prosecute. The insurance company refused to pay up because they claimed they determined the man (an unauthorized driver) hit the cyclist.

    That is how it often works in the real world.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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