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One more point

Old 03-14-05, 10:20 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by bwileyr

As you may know, the League of American Bicyclists has an education program in the USA which has several hundred League Cycling Instructors. Here's one idea to encourage young people to seek training from those LCIs; toughen up testing for the Motor Vehicle license to the point where the experience gained by operating a Pedal Vehicle according to the Rules of the Road improves the odds of obtaining a MV learner's permit.

Bruce "certified PVOI" Rosar
A fair proposal and frankly the only one I have heard to date... all other proposals have simply fallen back on "well cyclists will seek knowledge." Which is pure BS... experienced cyclists may seek more knowledge, but they have already achieved a minimum of training by the school of hard knocks. The new cyclists are the ones that most need this knowledge and are the least likely to seek it.

Thanks again, Bruce.

Now of course the downside is that this primarily addresses those that drive... how about folks younger then drivers?
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Old 03-14-05, 12:49 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by genec
I have proposed a menthod, but others feel it is too restrictive. License cyclists just like motorists. If vehicular cyclists have all the same rights to the roads, then why not the training requirements? Of course, some will say that cyclists are not likely to cause harm with their 40 pound bikes like motorists can cause with their thousands of pound autos.
A cylcist driving unsafely can easily caused a multi-car accident.

I don't know if I see any need for a road test for cycling, but a simple written test - perhaps the same one use to get a driver's learning permit - would be a good idea.

A good option to consider would be requiring the permit only for cycling on major roads, with none required for minor roads. This exempts people new to cycling, just trying out a bike, or who cycle only on pathways. The obvious problem would be a clear definition of "major road" that would not cause confusion or ambiguity.

In Ontario a bike is the only vehicle (as defined by the Ontario Highway Traffic Act) which is not licensed and does not require a driver's license. I find it frightening that, in theory, someone could ride a bike down a 6-lane highway and not even know how to signal turns.
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Old 03-14-05, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by patc
A cylcist driving unsafely can easily caused a multi-car accident.

I don't know if I see any need for a road test for cycling, but a simple written test - perhaps the same one use to get a driver's learning permit - would be a good idea.

A good option to consider would be requiring the permit only for cycling on major roads, with none required for minor roads. This exempts people new to cycling, just trying out a bike, or who cycle only on pathways. The obvious problem would be a clear definition of "major road" that would not cause confusion or ambiguity.

In Ontario a bike is the only vehicle (as defined by the Ontario Highway Traffic Act) which is not licensed and does not require a driver's license. I find it frightening that, in theory, someone could ride a bike down a 6-lane highway and not even know how to signal turns.

Well, doubt a new cyclist would try that, but a cyclist should know the basic rules of the road and how and where they should be on that road... I don't know of a place right now where new cyclists might be taught that, unless they seek it from LAB. I don't know that LBS are passing out any suggestions to new cyclists, and sadly I don't believe there is any form of education in the public schools about cycling any more.
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Old 03-14-05, 01:20 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
If you want some results from studies, or a suggestion on how or what to teach in cycling education, you can check out this link and track down more information if you want on Canada's answer to cyclist training.
The website presents a lot of information about classes that appear to be well thought out. And if someone asked my opinion, I would be willing to venture that these classes may very well be useful/helpful for INTERESTED cyclists.

Of course my opinion would not be a "study" nor would it directly correlate the offered training with ANY future results, "safety" or otherwise. Did I miss that direct correlation information on the BikeSense website?
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Old 03-14-05, 01:23 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by genec
I don't know that LBS are passing out any suggestions to new cyclists, and sadly I don't believe there is any form of education in the public schools about cycling any more.
That is truly unfortunate. Public school education is probably the best way to disseminate the fundamentals of riding a bicycle on the road. They teach driver's ed, why can't they also teach cycling ed. since so many kids ride bicycles?
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Old 03-14-05, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
The new cyclists are the ones that most need this knowledge and are the least likely to seek it.
WHO made this determination of "most need," and HOW was this urgent "need" determined? And what "knowledge" is it that they "most need". I ask because I assume (perhaps incorrectly) the above statement is based on an agenda to expand teaching venues regardless of customer demand or customer stated needs.

And who are the "new cyclists" that you wish to license?
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Old 03-14-05, 02:29 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by genec
Well, doubt a new cyclist would try that, but a cyclist should know the basic rules of the road and how and where they should be on that road... I don't know of a place right now where new cyclists might be taught that, unless they seek it from LAB. I don't know that LBS are passing out any suggestions to new cyclists, and sadly I don't believe there is any form of education in the public schools about cycling any more.
Well, my example was deliberately extreme. I can't speak for places outside Ontario, but we got very basic bike safety rules when I was in grade school (I'm 33 now, so its been a while). The only reason I know about the CAN-BIKE courses and applicable laws is that I got off my butt and did my research.

Given how much of our time is spent on roads, I have to think that basic traffic education - including cycling - should be part of the high school curriculum.
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Old 03-14-05, 02:37 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
If you want some results from studies, or a suggestion on how or what to teach in cycling education, you can check out this link and track down more information if you want on Canada's answer to cyclist training.
More links:

Ontario's Cycling Guide https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pub...lingskills.htm (not great)
Ottawa Cycling info (guide, maps, etc.) https://city.ottawa.on.ca/city_servic...ng/cy_en.shtml
CAN-BIKE Program https://www.canadian-cycling.com/Engl...e/canintro.htm
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Old 03-14-05, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
my opinion would not be a "study" nor would it directly correlate the offered training with ANY future results, "safety" or otherwise. Did I miss that direct correlation information on the BikeSense website?
The key there was "trackdown"

The Bike sense site is attached to the Can - Bike course. The people (or site) for Can - Bike would be able to link you up to that info
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Old 03-14-05, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackberry
Just look at the number of McDonald's in your town compared with health food joints.
I'm not advocating for either one in this post. However, I note that my local nutrition center is offering $35 off on a 30 day supply of something or another right now while the fast food joints are posting signs extolling their under-a-buck menus.

It's also not unusual to find a price premium of 50% or more when the supermarket section is labled "health," "organic" or "diet" as opposed to plain old food, processed or otherwise.
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Old 03-14-05, 03:29 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
The key there was "trackdown"
No thanks. I don't choose to trackdown the Loch Ness Monster nor the Missing Link to the Mssing "Studies."

Little Big Man alleges the unnamed "studies" seal the deal for the safety value of unnamed/undefined cycling training for unnamed undefined cyclists. I don't plan to trackdown the non-existance of someone else's obvious guesswork.
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Old 03-14-05, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
OK how do you propose to train cyclists? How are you going to get the message out to all the folks now riding and the next generation?

I have heard so many advocates talk about education, and yet not one of them has a plan on how to implement this process.
Cyclist education needs to become the primary focus of every advocacy group.
Every cyclist aware of the value of training for cyclists should be advocating for this.
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Old 03-14-05, 04:58 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Little Big Man alleges the unnamed "studies" seal the deal for the safety value of unnamed/undefined cycling training for unnamed undefined cyclists. I don't plan to trackdown the non-existance of someone else's obvious guesswork.
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to think that any one who takes one of those courses could come out as a better informed and more skillfull road user that will be involved in fewer roadway collisions.

It's simple, if someone is informed of a better and safer way of doing something, there'll be less accidents than if they didn't have any information.

I have 2 studies at home done by well paid corporations that show about two -thirds of cycling deaths are due to not following the rules of the road and about 30% from accidents that were not in any way preventable. They both corroberate each others findings and show if cyclists simply follow the rules of the road, there is only the tiniest of chance of death on the bicycle, yet (back to the original concept of the post) cyclists seem to get the short end of the stick because the political will of representatives clearly represent the majority of the constituents that elect the politicians, motorists.

Until cyclists represent a significantly larger portion of road way users, our intrests will be sorely under-represented.
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Old 03-14-05, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to think that any one who takes one of those courses could come out as a better informed and more skillfull road user that will be involved in fewer roadway collisions.

It's simple, if someone is informed of a better and safer way of doing something, there'll be less accidents than if they didn't have any information.
You mean like teaching abstinence and "just saying NO" as a better and safer way of doing something to sexually active teenagers is SURE to bring about the desired safer behavior and reduction in "accidents"? Does measurable change in student behavior occur simply because the proselytizers/teachers believe it is "better"? You are right, your speculation as to cyclist training effect is a SIMPLE answer, without substantiation in any way.

Your speculation about what a chimeric study will surely indicate about training-increased safety correlation, is off kilter for two specific reasons - Lack of any evidence that students of current cyclist safety training programs significantly alter their cycling behavior after the training, and lack of any evidence that the safety record of students changes in the slightest after training.

Originally Posted by closetbiker
I have 2 studies at home done by well paid corporations that show about two -thirds of cycling deaths are due to not following the rules of the road and about 30% from accidents that were not in any way preventable. They both corroborate each others findings and show if cyclists simply follow the rules of the road, there is only the tiniest of chance of death on the bicycle
Do those studies indicate the effectiveness of any training program in significantly altering cyclist behavior in any measured way? Did these two studies correlate any training program with producing desired measurable cyclist safety results? Any particular reason why these studies are not identified?
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Old 03-14-05, 09:22 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by patc
Given how much of our time is spent on roads, I have to think that basic traffic education - including cycling - should be part of the high school curriculum.
The education needs to begin at the same time the cycling begins. Attempting to teach someone pedal vehicle driving after they've already been taught to cycle in the gutter (or even further to the outside) is remarkably ineffective.

BTW, about a year ago there was a post in a Yahoo group which asserted that the Hawaii Bicycle League's BikeEd program is "an extremely effective program". The poster also stated that the HBL has "worked with others wishing to start up similar programs."

Quoting from BikeEd Hawaii
The BikeEd Hawaii Program is aimed at fourth grade students, and is taught within Hawaii's public schools during school hours.
A newsletter article from 2001 stated that
It [BikeEd Hawaii] has helped about 60,000 O'ahu public school children since its inception in 1989. City and state funds pay for BikeEd salaries, equipment and other operating expenses.
The State of Hawaii Master Bike Plan discusses a possible correlation between BikeEd Hawaii and a lower bicycling accident rate on their Accident Data page.
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Old 03-14-05, 10:42 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by bwileyr
As you may know, the League of American Bicyclists has an education program in the USA which has several hundred League Cycling Instructors. Here's one idea to encourage young people to seek training from those LCIs; toughen up testing for the Motor Vehicle license to the point where the experience gained by operating a Pedal Vehicle according to the Rules of the Road improves the odds of obtaining a MV learner's permit.
Or, how about this: cyclists who have registered as having completed an accepted training course are eligible to recieve "safe driving status" on their auto insurance for the absence of liability insurance claims while riding their bicycles on public roads, including the years they bicycle before the age of 16.

Poke holes in it, sure. But I like it.
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Old 03-15-05, 10:07 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by bwileyr
The State of Hawaii Master Bike Plan discusses a possible correlation between BikeEd Hawaii and a lower bicycling accident rate on their Accident Data page.
Bruce is correct to qualify this statement with the modifier "possible". All things are possible but the information provided on the cited URL provides so little data that no credible analysis of correlation between Bike Ed Hawaii and a "lower accident rate" can be made.
Accident per registration is a neat statistical trick when discussing risk. So is "involvement rate."

Even if accepting the assumption that bicycle registration is a correct indicator of the number of cyclists, it is no indicator of number of miles or time spent cycling or in what kind of environment. Who knows who registers bicycles in the various counties of Hawaii or if registration is remotely related to time or miles cycling?

Accidents are not defined at all, accident severities are unknown; does a bent rim or skinned knee equal a crippling injury or permanent disability when computing the so-called "involvement rate?"

More to the point there is no data presented that the Bike Ed students in Honolulu had any different "involvement rate" than the majority of the cyclists from Honolulu who have never had this training. The population density, geographic differences and cycling environment between Honolulu and the rest of Hawaii are so different that comparing any reported difference in the vague term "involvement rate" requires more careful analysis than just tossing out numbers. For the last reported year,1989, Honolulu has one tenth the land mass of Hawaii, 75% of the population, and 77% of the "accidents" whatever those are in this shaky listing. Given the lack of data, the "safety record" of the formally trained cyclists in Hawaii in comparison to untrained cyclists is anybody's guess.
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Old 03-15-05, 10:22 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by bwileyr
The education needs to begin at the same time the cycling begins. Attempting to teach someone pedal vehicle driving after they've already been taught to cycle in the gutter (or even further to the outside) is remarkably ineffective.
I was not saying that traffic education could not start earlier, but that full traffic education should be at the high school level. In the same way that we do not allow a grade 6 student to drive a car, I don't think young kids should be allowed to cycle on major roads. They do not need to know the ins-and-outs of the local traffic laws (parking, freeways, demerit point system, DUI...) I also do not think this would have to be part of the curriculum in grade school, although it can still be taught. The distinction here is that a student must pass ALL parts of the curriculum to graduate... so my feeling is that you should not be able to graduate from high school without basic traffic skills (cycling and motor vehicle).

Having said all that, most kids can't read or write anyway, so I have no reason to think they would learn traffic skills if they were taught in school. (I taught college courses part-time for two years, the lack of basic language skills from recent high school grads was frightening).
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Old 03-15-05, 10:50 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by patc
Having said all that, most kids can't read or write anyway, so I have no reason to think they would learn traffic skills if they were taught in school. (I taught college courses part-time for two years, the lack of basic language skills from recent high school grads was frightening).
The tip of a very large iceberg. For fifty years we have been saying 'this or that' should be taught in schools, since it apparently is not taught in the home any more. Cycling, courtesy, being cautious, understanding the dynamics of the roadway, etc...yeah, right..just the sort of thing we want to take time with for our children, when they can't read, write, or add two digit numbers (forget subtraction, ok folks? FORGET IT).

Can someone please tell me why the driving age shouldn't be 18, anyway? A few extra years walking and cycling to get around would be a lesson quite a few children could use.


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Old 03-15-05, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff
The tip of a very large iceberg. For fifty years we have been saying 'this or that' should be taught in schools, since it apparently is not taught in the home any more. Cycling, courtesy, being cautious, understanding the dynamics of the roadway, etc...yeah, right..just the sort of thing we want to take time with for our children, when they can't read, write, or add two digit numbers (forget subtraction, ok folks? FORGET IT).

Can someone please tell me why the driving age shouldn't be 18, anyway? A few extra years walking and cycling to get around would be a lesson quite a few children could use.
I favour a more "prove you deserve the privilege" approach than a simple age-based policy. I've met plenty of teens at 14 that I would trust to drive, and plenty of 30yo I don't. We need to develop merit-based systems, not arbitrary rule based systems, IMO.

As to schooling... yikes. In addition to life skills, we do need to teach more these days. A basic understanding of science, math, political science, and applied technology are as required in today's world as the "4 R's". While the need for education has gone up, the standards across Canada and the US seem to have gone down. Sooner or later people will look around and go, "Uh, me so dumb, you so dumb, everybodt so dumb. Why 'puter box no worky? Why me not get good job thingie?"
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Old 03-15-05, 04:05 PM
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Patc - thanks for bringing up CAN-BIKE, and I think your "prove you deserve the privilege" idea is brilliant.
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Old 03-16-05, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Serge *******
Patc - thanks for bringing up CAN-BIKE, and I think your "prove you deserve the privilege" idea is brilliant.
I have mentioned CAN-BIKE before. It is also mentioned in all the official Ontario and Ottawa cycling literature (in other words anything local cyclists should read).

There is nothing particularly brilliant or new about merit-based systems, but the idea requires a complete change of mindset from our current milepost-based systems. Some things are currently a combination of both: for example in Ontario you must be 16 (milepost) and pass a series of exams (merit) before you can drive a motor vehicle.

There are two problems with setting up a merit-based system. First is getting around the entitlement mindset of people who see something as a "right" instead of a privilege they must qualify for. The second issue is setting up fair and meaningful criteria for the merit test(s). Not only is it exceedingly difficult to develop testing methods accessible to all, but you must also ensure that each and every criterion is essential to the merit, and not the result of a lobby group (e.g. rabid VCers) pushing a certain point of view.

I strongly believe that merit-based system are the superior choice in most instances, however I also know that the design and implementation of such systems is so open to error that we may be better off with milepost systems in many instances.
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