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  1. #1
    Tem
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    Charlotte, TN bans children from riding bikes in the street

    http://www.tennessean.com/viewart/20...EWS/311210129/

    I wonder if we are going to find out that this mayor smokes crack as well?

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    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    And the list of autocentric legalities and priorities goes on..... To think of all of my neighborhood's street ball games that were played during my youth, and I would suspect that this family may eventually end up moving to a more family friendly city.

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    Senior Member bikemig's Avatar
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    I love it; one of her neighbors called and complained about the kids.

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    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
    I love it; one of her neighbors called and complained about the kids.
    It seems that parts of Tennessee are not favorable to children on bicycles, some time ago, a BF member from Tennessee was threatened with arrest for letting their child ride a bike to school on a residential street.

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    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Reading the article, it seems that all forms of playing in the street is banned, not just cycling. While this seems to be an ignorant ill conceived nanny state type of law, its not aimed at bicycling.
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    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    More overbearing b'crats being wannabe little dictators!!!!!

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    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    More overbearing b'crats being wannabe little dictators!!!!!

    I see it as blanket punishment to child rearing parents due to excessive liability fears on the city's part, and giving one more reason why children should be driven to destinations that could have been easily reached by bicycle.

  8. #8
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    Reading the article, it seems that all forms of playing in the street is banned, not just cycling. While this seems to be an ignorant ill conceived nanny state type of law, its not aimed at bicycling.
    So riding a bicycle in the street is playing in the street? Your supporting that logic?

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    And we wonder why the south has such a large obesity problem.

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    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    When is kids riding around the neighborhood, yeah a lot of its playing. But I will play your game, Reading the news story its not anti cycling in as much as its trying to prevent children from using the streets as playgrounds because drivers in those state will run them over. Whats not clear is if the prohibition of recreating in the streets extends to adult users.
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  11. #11
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
    . . . its trying to prevent children from using the streets as playgrounds because drivers in those state will run them over. Whats not clear is if the prohibition of recreating in the streets extends to adult users.
    I don't doubt the problem could be a real one, what I'm saying is "wrong solution" why not deal with the drivers that are willing to run people over instead. As to recreation, yes, I would say half of the cycling on the road I did when I was a kid was "recreational" the other half was to get from one place to another. To my friends houses (several miles down country roads in different directions some paved, some gravel, some even high speed highway although minimal traffic), to the lake and back (many miles on mixed roads), to the nearest gas station that was also a convenience store to buy snacks and such (4.6 miles one way from my parents place last 2+ miles on a narrow two lane high speed highway with no shoulder edges but minimal traffic), and all the way across the valley to the other side to the base of the mountains where we used to bike up part way and hike up the rest of the way on weekends and have camping trips with campfires and sometimes beverages we weren't supposed to have and invite the girls along too (about 20 miles total across the valley on mixed roads and through the middle of a small town) all this before we were old enough to start drivers ed. I think I was only 12 or so the first time I took the trip all the way across the valley to the base of the mountains with older friends who biked. Our bikes is how we got around.

    As to adult recreation, how much driving is just recreational? Should that form of recreation also be curbed as unnecessary endangerment?

    How about instead of blaming victims and potential victims for daring to just be there we deal with people who are willing to intentionally or unintentionally drive in such a way as to kill or seriously injure other people by running them down? I'm not anti-*** I only demand that people with guns treat them as the dangerous machines they are and be careful not to unnecessarily kill or hurt innocent people with them. I'm not anti-automobile (heck I even strongly argue against other members of this forum who have stated that we need to get rid of automobiles and even suggest its a possibility) I only have an exception which I do not believe is in any way unreasonable that people driving cars treat them as the dangerous machines they are and be careful not to unnecessarily kill or hurt innocent people with them.



    I would agree that if a group of pre-teen kids take some chalk and make a hop-scotch grid in the middle of a high speed highway with sustained 60+mph traffic and start playing hop-scotch there its probably a lack of parental supervision and if the parents know its happening and are fine with it I would wonder if they are on drugs. Where as the exact same thing on a quite neighborhood street with minimal 25-mph traffic I wouldn't bat an eye at and if some idiot entitled speed demon motorists complains about it the problem is with them not the kids or their parents. As to bikes, on the high speed highway if the kids aren't biking by the rules of the road then pull them over stick there bike in the back of the cop car and put them in the cop car and drive them home to their folks and inform their folks that they need to teach their kids to follow the rules of the road if they are going to ride in the road. If its the quite neighborhood street then only do that if the kids are being nasty and crazy and doing things like deliberately playing chicken with cars.

    There is a sensible balance to things. Even on a high speed highway where speeds are still kept within reason (why do you think speed limits exist?) cyclist even a slow little one on a little bike so long as they are moving and following the rules of the road is not an undue or unreasonable burden for motorists to slow down and wait to pass until safe to do so. For a low speed neighborhood road kids at play so long as their play doesn't include deliberately messing with drivers are not an unreasonable or undue burden for motorists to slow down and safely navigate around.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 11-24-13 at 04:08 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    I agree that its a poor solution to the problem if indeed thats the problem thats being addressed, which is what the linked article implies. If you read my original post thats what I said.
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  13. #13
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    It seems that parts of Tennessee are not favorable to children on bicycles, some time ago, a BF member from Tennessee was threatened with arrest for letting their child ride a bike to school on a residential street.
    Here is the thread started by BikeMomTN, back on August 25,2011

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...nnessee+policehttp://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...nnessee+police

    She never listed the town/city she lives in with her husband n' daughter. So, While the State of Tennessee says one thing. The counties could agree/disagree with the state, and the cities/towns could agree with the state, or the county.

  14. #14
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Yup, that whole state law superiority issue vs. local ordinance. One of the reasons I am so happy that in my state except for the specific issue as to whether bicycles may or may not be legally ridden on sidewalks where the state law specifically gives local jurisdictions the choice state law is superior and by state law bicycles are road legal vehicles which has several times personally assisted me directly in fighting oppressive and anti-cyclist bigoted local ordinances.

    Sounds like either Tennessee state law doesn't have that or people aren't aware of it and aren't using it to fight stuff like this.

  15. #15
    Senior Member mrodgers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    So riding a bicycle in the street is playing in the street? Your supporting that logic?
    Yes, kids riding up and down the street like was said in the article is kids playing in the street.
    Ride no faster than your Guardian Angel can fly!

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    Not quite there yet Matariki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    And we wonder why the country has such a large childhood obesity problem.
    Fixed. States with 1 in 4 kids overweight or obese are not much better than the states where 1 in 3 kids are fat.

    The country is quite a bit different than when I was tearing up the neighborhood streets on my 20" J.C. Higgins. My recollection of my classmates at that time is that less than 1 in 20 were chubby.
    Any information, no matter how good, will always under-represent reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Yup, that whole state law superiority issue vs. local ordinance. One of the reasons I am so happy that in my state except for the specific issue as to whether bicycles may or may not be legally ridden on sidewalks where the state law specifically gives local jurisdictions the choice state law is superior and by state law bicycles are road legal vehicles which has several times personally assisted me directly in fighting oppressive and anti-cyclist bigoted local ordinances.

    Sounds like either Tennessee state law doesn't have that or people aren't aware of it and aren't using it to fight stuff like this.
    Based on the wording of the city ordinance I suspect that Tenn. state law does have such a clause and that the writers of the city ordinance were aware of it. Their city code prohibits children from various activities on city streets incl. roller blading, skateboarding, and riding an ATV, and then adds 'or similar activities.' Bicycling is not mentioned in their code but the mayor is claiming that it's a 'similar activity.' I strongly suspect that bicycling isn't explicitly mentioned since the writers of the code knew that it couldn't be prohibited as that would be contrary to the state vehicle code and the mayor is wrong in his interpretation. Hope that someone in the town government realizes that the local ordinance was never intended to ban legal bicycling by children and that such an interpretation is unenforceable.

  18. #18
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrodgers View Post
    Yes, kids riding up and down the street like was said in the article is kids playing in the street.
    So older kids driving cars and trucks up and down main-street "dragging main" on Friday nights is also "kids playing in the street"?

    On a residential street, get real dude, kids at play = normal, drive with care and slow down and go around them. Not hard at all and in no way an undue burden or responsibility.

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    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    Here is the thread started by BikeMomTN, back on August 25,2011

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...nnessee+policehttp://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...nnessee+police

    She never listed the town/city she lives in with her husband n' daughter. So, While the State of Tennessee says one thing. The counties could agree/disagree with the state, and the cities/towns could agree with the state, or the county.
    The city was Elizabethton, and here is the street view of which is one of the streets that the woman's daughter rode to school on.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=South...13,175.28,,0,0

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    I am 60, when I was a kid growing up in Suburban Detroit, it was not allowed for children under 12 to ride in the street. When the police caught you they would write a citation that you had to have signed by your parents and turn it into the police department lol they would also write you up for riding double on a bike lol.
    I had about 15 citations lol

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    Based on the wording of the city ordinance I suspect that Tenn. state law does have such a clause and that the writers of the city ordinance were aware of it. Their city code prohibits children from various activities on city streets incl. roller blading, skateboarding, and riding an ATV, and then adds 'or similar activities.' Bicycling is not mentioned in their code but the mayor is claiming that it's a 'similar activity.' I strongly suspect that bicycling isn't explicitly mentioned since the writers of the code knew that it couldn't be prohibited as that would be contrary to the state vehicle code and the mayor is wrong in his interpretation. Hope that someone in the town government realizes that the local ordinance was never intended to ban legal bicycling by children and that such an interpretation is unenforceable.
    +1

    Hope the mayor gets his butt sued for abridging the kids rights. There is no indication that the city ord. is limited to just kids, which make sense with banning "roller blading, skateboarding, and riding an ATV".

    I guess some here do not think high school kids should be able to ride to school or to a friends house.

    In the mayor's mind, a professional cyclist training on a circuit route is playing vice working.
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  22. #22
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    The city was Elizabethton, and here is the street view of which is one of the streets that the woman's daughter rode to school on.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=South...13,175.28,,0,0
    Oh, yes. I forgot to edit my post after looking at all her posts' in the entire thread.

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    Subordinate governments (counties, parishes, municipalities, cities, towns, villages, etc.) always have the autonomy to enact stricter laws than the state government's overarching laws. If they didn't, they couldn't operate their own school districts or utility districts, impose their own taxes, regulate real estate development, set speed limits on their own roads, or give the mayor his own designated parking spot at City Hall. If all the local government were authorized to do was mirror state-level laws, they would not be a local government but rather a local "mirror" branch of the state government. There would be no need for either city police or county sheriffs nor their courts and jails because there could be no city or county laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NattyBumpo View Post
    Subordinate governments (counties, parishes, municipalities, cities, towns, villages, etc.) always have the autonomy to enact stricter laws than the state government's overarching laws.
    No they do not. There are frequently many restrictions on the types of ordinances that local governments are allowed to enact. For example, wrt vehicle ordinances California (and many other states) have restrictions so that traffic laws will be uniform throughout the state. Calif. Vehicle Code Sect. 21 states:
    "21. (a) Except as otherwise expressly provided, the provisions of this code are applicable and uniform throughout the state and in all counties and municipalities therein, and a local authority shall not enact or enforce any ordinance or resolution on the matters covered by this code, including ordinances or resolutions that establish regulations or procedures for, or assess a fine, penalty, assessment, or fee for a violation of, matters covered by this code, unless expressly authorized by this code."

    Later in the CVC is an exhaustive list of the types of traffic-related ordinances local authorities can enact. So, e.g., towns and cities in Calif. can enact rules regarding bicycle riding on sidewalks, but they are not allowed to enact ordinances restricting bicycling on streets and roads. I don't know the specific rules in Tenn., but in the states where I've lived there have been similar state rules as in California - severely restricting the ability of local authorities to enact additional rules on subjects already covered by state statutes.

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