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  1. #26
    Señior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Most motorists just have to utter the words "the cyclist swerved" and they are home free.
    It is for this reason alone that I run a helmet cam.

    I have complained a lot that some drivers won't pass me unless they can give me a RIDICULOUS amount of space. I've had situations where I'm riding on the shoulder, at least a foot right of the white line, in a 14' wide lane, and people wait for traffic to clear and then move BEYOND the oncoming lane and drive in the oncoming SHOULDER to pass me.

    When I've had a chance to ask about it, people seem to think that adults riding bikes act the same as 6 year olds riding bikes - they swerve around at random, change direction without looking, commonly wobble about by many feet, and fall every time they hit a pebble in the road. They're "afraid" to pass because they assume that a cyclist is going to suddenly swerve right in front of them at any moment.

    I don't have any idea where this comes from. I tell them that I can easily ride down the white line for half a mile without leaving it if I choose to; I ride FAR more straight than I've ever seen any car drive. But they just say "well, that's you. I can't take the chance that someone else won't swerve."

    And while I rarely see it, I have occasionally seen the random idiot - last year I saw some moronic teenager who was intentionally weaving back and forth across an entire lane on a 50 MPH road. No traffic in that lane at the time but oncoming drivers would have seen him. So without separated infrastructure I really don't know what to say about these people.

    The thing that bugs me about them is that they hold up traffic significantly on 50+ MPH roads, building up lines of 30+ cars behind them, and those people all assume that the backup is because of something I did and are irritated at me.

    They're also the kind of people who might think of cyclists as poor addled people who need to be limited "for their own good" and if you tell them that you're a responsible adult, they then think you're being "arrogant."
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  2. #27
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    I don't think this is even a cycling-specific issue. Anyone who's stupid enough to try to overtake on an unseparated road while going over a crest is just a dangerous driver and shouldn't be on the road.

  3. #28
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    I don't have any idea where this comes from.
    The problem is that there ARE "stupid" unpredictable cyclists out there... they run red lights, they make left turns from the far right side of the road, they ride against the flow of traffic, they wear headphones and dash out without looking, they make angle crossings across 4 lanes, they play "road sneak" and ride on the lines between the cars, they fake right turns to sneak across red lights... I mean I can go on and on, but the point is that to a motorist, sometimes a cyclist represents the most unpredictable thing on the road. And the fact is that none of us ride around with a sign that says "I am predictable law abiding cyclist."

    Sure a bit of observation of a single cyclist might show that one is vastly more predictable than another... but heavens, that would take more than the millisecond glance that any single motorist is willing to give. So you get lumped in with the ninja kid down the street... you know the one... wears a hoodie, rides at night without lights, blasts across the street at the last second to make his Arizona Tea and Skittles run...

  4. #29
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    Cyclists are not bring treated on our roads any differently than pedestrians or other cars. I have been very observant of this since getting hit in June. Many drivers are impatient and not looking/thinking ahead and often get themselves or others into trouble. It seems that many people just go around whatever obstacles are in front without a second thought.

    I have seen drivers take ridiculous gambles with human lives and not even bat an eye. I have also seen cyclists, runners and pedestrians put themselves into danger as well.

    We really need some tougher rules and penalties for unsafe driving and passing and they need to be enforced. This will help raise awareness and discourage people from continuing to drive like crazy people until they kill someone.
    Last edited by Number400; 11-26-13 at 10:18 AM.

  5. #30
    Señior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number400 View Post
    It seems that many people just go around whatever obstacles are in front without a second thought.
    Having been passed twice in the last couple of weeks by people who go half way into the oncoming lane WITH ONCOMING TRAFFIC PRESENT and drive people into the shoulder, I have to agree. I've heard that these people will argue "the cyclist forced me into the oncoming lane."

    It actually does not occur to some people that actually slowing down and waiting for a clear passing opportunity is an option.

    I have a theory that the reason is that some people are such bad drivers that their "skills" extend to just getting their car up to a set speed, going as straight as possible and hoping that nothing unusual happens today. If they lose that bet, they really have no idea what to do so they try to get by doing as little as possible. They certainly seem to THINK as little as possible.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    It would so nice to put a dummy cyclist on the side of the road during the driver's license test and if the student does not give enough clearance when driving by then they fail. That is where the education needs to start. Not much hope for the older drivers though and some of them are the worst. My friend was changing a tire on the roadside and was missed by inches by an old man in a hat who did not alter his speed or course at all when he came upon our group.

  7. #32
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalfiend View Post
    Really? How can you not trust unedited video footage? If I were a police officer I'd much prefer a video of the incident over witness testimony. It's like saying that the video police record from their squad cars for their protection (and presumably ours) is worthless.
    Believe me, I totally agree with you.

    Because the 'excuse' I get from cops around here(state, county, city, U.S. Park Police) is that they have to see it. Then they follow up that excuse with, the excuse of there being more important crimes to be concerned about. So, Cyclists' that get killed in this region, amount to 'collateral damage' and nothing more. Considering what the Anne Arundel County DA DID NOT DO, it obviously not just the law in the D.C.-Metro region that could care less. That apathy extends further up the state.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmm___ View Post
    I don't think this is even a cycling-specific issue. Anyone who's stupid enough to try to overtake on an unseparated road while going over a crest is just a dangerous driver and shouldn't be on the road.
    Yes, it's that simple. I don't know the details, but can't help but wonder how it would have played out if instead of trying to duck right and killing the cyclist, the driver caused a fatal head on.

    It's impossible to know what the DA presented as the facts, or what was in the jurors mind. It's possible that they considered moving out to pass a bicycle differently than passing a car. I also don't know if the road was marked with a double yellow or not, and if that factored in their thinking.

    We have no way of knowing how a trial would have played out, or whether there would have been a conviction. But it would have been nice to have all the facts and arguments aired out in a public trial.

    The threshold for indictment is fairly low (DAs boast they can indict a ham sandwich), so I'm very surprised the DA didn't get one (unless she wasn't really trying).

    I assume this will now move over to the civil arena as the family sues for damages, either on a simple accident theory or as a wrongful death.
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  9. #34
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number400 View Post
    It would so nice to put a dummy cyclist on the side of the road during the driver's license test and if the student does not give enough clearance when driving by then they fail. That is where the education needs to start. Not much hope for the older drivers though and some of them are the worst. My friend was changing a tire on the roadside and was missed by inches by an old man in a hat who did not alter his speed or course at all when he came upon our group.
    I actually talked with several driving schools some time ago. When I asked them about teaching their students to be aware of cyclists', they rely solely on the little blurb in the state drivers' manual. But they never verbally reiterate it. They only go by what the state tells them to teach.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    I actually talked with several driving schools some time ago. When I asked them about teaching their students to be aware of cyclists', they rely solely on the little blurb in the state drivers' manual. But they never verbally reiterate it. They only go by what the state tells them to teach.
    OTOH fleet operators are much more diligent. The local public bus company sends periodic memos to all drivers that they alert bicyclists to their presence with a tap on the horn, pass giving the widest practical clearance (averages 5-6 feet) and not to pass when approaching stops where they have move close to the curb.

    The drivers are highly motivated to comply, and treat me with the utmost courtesy on the road. Of course, they have a stake in safe driving because they can be fired for a single chargeable accident.

    Part of the problem on our roads is that most people are insured to the point of little or no personal liability. Sure an accident may rais their rates, but not to any painful degree. I'm sympathetic to the idea that to err is human, and not all accidents are due to outrageous driver conduct, so feel most should stay out of the criminal arena (where juries don't like to convict anyway), but would like to see our insurance laws changed so drivers have some sort of co-pay, or direct financial impact for accidents causing death or serious injury. I'm not looking to break anybody's bank here, just something real enough to have a serious sting, and give them something to consider while behind the wheel.
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  11. #36
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number400 View Post
    Cyclists are not bring treated on our roads any differently than pedestrians or other cars. I have been very observant of this since getting hit in June. Many drivers are impatient and not looking/thinking ahead and often get themselves or others into trouble. It seems that many people just go around whatever obstacles are in front without a second thought.

    I have seen drivers take ridiculous gambles with human lives and not even bat an eye. I have also seen cyclists, runners and pedestrians put themselves into danger as well.

    We really need some tougher rules and penalties for unsafe driving and passing and they need to be enforced. This will help raise awareness and discourage people from continuing to drive like crazy people until they kill someone.
    I beg to differ. I have been yelled at with 'GET OFF THE ROAD!, GET ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD!!!, and ROADS ARE MADE FOR CARS, NOT BIKES!!!!! Despite going 25-30MPH on roads that have a 30-40MPH speed limit. So you still want to say that cyclists' are treated no differently?

  12. #37
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    This is what was finally put in the electronic database today through this website:http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us...earchParam.jis Up until about an hour ago, there was no data on her.

    Court System: DISTRICT COURT FOR ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS) - TRAFFIC SYSTEM
    Citation Number: 0000000960CCBCase Status:ACTIVE CASE
    Violation Date: 08/21/2013 Violation Time: 05:23 PM
    Violation County: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    District Code: 07 Location Code: 01
    AgencyName:AACP - CENTRAL
    Officer Name:FIESLER, CPL
    Officer ID:1466
    Defendant Information

    Defendant Name: DECESARIS, WHITNEY ANNE
    Address:30 SCARLETT DR
    City: HUNTINGTOWNState:MDZip Code:20639
    Race:WHITE,CAUCASIAN,ASIATIC INDIAN,ARAB
    Sex:FHeight:507Weight:135
    DOB:09/1975
    Schedule Information

    Trial Date: 02/18/2014Trial Time:01:15 PMRoom:01
    Trial Location: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    Reason: CaseTrial
    Charge Information

    Charge: Article:TASec:21Sub-Sec:901.1Para:BCode:
    Description: NEGLIGENT DRIVING VEHICLE IN CARELESS AND IMPRUDENT MANNER ENDANGERING PROPERTY, LIFE AND PERSON
    Location Stopped: RIVA RD @ BEARDS POINT RD
    Contributed to Accident?: YES Personal Injury?: FATAL
    Fine: 280 Related Citation Number: 00970CCB
    Vehicle Tag: CPS0161 State: MD Vehicle Description: 11HOND28
    Event History Information

    Event Date Comment
    SUSP 2013-11-25 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION
    RTRL 2013-11-26 REQUEST FOR TRIAL RECEIVED
    SUSR 2013-11-26 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION RECALL EFFECTIVE 112613
    ESCH 2013-11-26 20140218;0115P;01

    Court System: DISTRICT COURT FOR ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS) - TRAFFIC SYSTEM
    Citation Number: 0000000970CCBCase Status:ACTIVE CASE
    Violation Date: 08/21/2013 Violation Time: 05:23 PM
    Violation County: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    District Code: 07 Location Code: 01
    AgencyName:AACP - CENTRAL
    Officer Name:FIESLER, CPL
    Officer ID:1466
    Defendant Information

    Defendant Name: DECESARIS, WHITNEY ANNE
    Address:30 SCARLETT DR
    City: HUNTINGTOWNState:MDZip Code:20639
    Race:WHITE,CAUCASIAN,ASIATIC INDIAN,ARAB
    Sex:FHeight:507Weight:135
    DOB:09/1975
    Schedule Information

    Trial Date: 02/18/2014Trial Time:01:15 PMRoom:01
    Trial Location: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    Reason: CaseTrial
    Charge Information

    Charge: Article:TASec:21Sub-Sec:1209Para:A1Code:
    Description: FAILURE OF VEH. DRIVER TO USE CARE TO AVOID COLLISION W/BIKE OPER. BY PERSON
    Location Stopped: RIVA RD @ BEARDS POINT RD
    Contributed to Accident?: YES Personal Injury?: FATAL
    Fine: 290 Related Citation Number: 00980CCB
    Vehicle Tag: CPS0161 State: MD Vehicle Description: 11HOND28
    Event History Information

    Event Date Comment
    SUSP 2013-11-25 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION
    RTRL 2013-11-26 REQUEST FOR TRIAL RECEIVED
    SUSR 2013-11-26 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION RECALL EFFECTIVE 112613
    ESCH 2013-11-26 20140218;0115P;01

    Court System: DISTRICT COURT FOR ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS) - TRAFFIC SYSTEM
    Citation Number: 0000000980CCBCase Status:ACTIVE CASE
    Violation Date: 08/21/2013 Violation Time: 05:23 PM
    Violation County: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    District Code: 07 Location Code: 01
    AgencyName:AACP - CENTRAL
    Officer Name:FIESLER, CPL
    Officer ID:1466
    Defendant Information

    Defendant Name: DECESARIS, WHITNEY ANNE
    Address:30 SCARLETT DR
    City: HUNTINGTOWNState:MDZip Code:20639
    Race:WHITE,CAUCASIAN,ASIATIC INDIAN,ARAB
    Sex:FHeight:507Weight:135
    DOB:09/1975
    Schedule Information

    Trial Date: 02/18/2014Trial Time:01:15 PMRoom:01
    Trial Location: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    Reason: CaseTrial
    Charge Information

    Charge: Article:TASec:21Sub-Sec:801Para:BCode:
    Description: FAILURE TO CONTROL VEHICLE SPEED ON HIGHWAY TO AVOID COLLISION
    Location Stopped: RIVA RD @ BEARDS POINT RD
    Contributed to Accident?: YES Personal Injury?: FATAL
    Fine: 130 Related Citation Number: 00990CCB
    Vehicle Tag: CPS0161 State: MD Vehicle Description: 11HOND28
    Event History Information

    Event Date Comment
    SUSP 2013-11-25 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION
    RTRL 2013-11-26 REQUEST FOR TRIAL RECEIVED
    SUSR 2013-11-26 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION RECALL EFFECTIVE 112613
    ESCH 2013-11-26 20140218;0115P;01

    Court System: DISTRICT COURT FOR ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS) - TRAFFIC SYSTEM
    Citation Number: 0000000990CCBCase Status:ACTIVE CASE
    Violation Date: 08/21/2013 Violation Time: 05:23 PM
    Violation County: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    District Code: 07 Location Code: 01
    AgencyName:AACP - CENTRAL
    Officer Name:FIESLER, CPL
    Officer ID:1466
    Defendant Information

    Defendant Name: DECESARIS, WHITNEY ANNE
    Address:30 SCARLETT DR
    City: HUNTINGTOWNState:MDZip Code:20639
    Race:WHITE,CAUCASIAN,ASIATIC INDIAN,ARAB
    Sex:FHeight:507Weight:135
    DOB:09/1975
    Schedule Information

    Trial Date: 02/18/2014Trial Time:01:15 PMRoom:01
    Trial Location: ANNE ARUNDEL COUNTY (ANNAPOLIS)
    Reason: CaseTrial
    Charge Information

    Charge: Article:TASec:21Sub-Sec:305Para:Code:
    Description: DRIVING LEFT OF ROADWAY CENTER IN OVERTAKING AND PASSING WHEN UNSAFE
    Location Stopped: RIVA RD @ BEARDS POINT RD
    Contributed to Accident?: YES Personal Injury?: FATAL
    Fine: 130 Related Citation Number: 00960CCB
    Vehicle Tag: CPS0161 State: MD Vehicle Description: 11HOND28
    Event History Information

    Event Date Comment
    SUSP 2013-11-25 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION
    RTRL 2013-11-26 REQUEST FOR TRIAL RECEIVED
    SUSR 2013-11-26 FAILURE TO COMPLY SUSPENSION RECALL EFFECTIVE 112613
    ESCH 2013-11-26 20140218;0115P;01

  13. #38
    Senior Member Number400's Avatar
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    My point was that bicyclists are not being singled out for drives to treat extra dangerously, rather that anyone on the road is at risk from dangerous driving. I would be happy to have people yell at me to get off the road as it means that they have seen me, which is half the battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    I beg to differ. I have been yelled at with 'GET OFF THE ROAD!, GET ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD!!!, and ROADS ARE MADE FOR CARS, NOT BIKES!!!!! Despite going 25-30MPH on roads that have a 30-40MPH speed limit. So you still want to say that cyclists' are treated no differently?
    Barbossa: I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request. Means "no".

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  14. #39
    Señior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    I have been yelled at with ...ROADS ARE MADE FOR CARS, NOT BIKES!!!!!
    While I guess that's a widely held belief, saying it is a bit baffling. It's not the cyclist's fault that the road was badly designed and doesn't take into account all of the road users.

    If the state built a road that for some reason was only really suitable for yellow cars, others could use it but it was in some way worse for them, would the drivers then feel that they should just give up and ride the bus, or buy a yellow car? No, I suppose that they would raise hell over the state building a bad road. But for some reason when they build a road that's not suitable for cyclists, nobody really cares.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  15. #40
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    This annoys me:

    Commenter 1: The attorney should press charges. In San Francisco, they pressed felony charges against a cyclist who sped carelessly through an intersection and hit and killed someone. Same thing should happen here.

    Commenter 2:
    Yes, a single idiot cyclist killed someone -- he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. but talk about a once in a blue moon circumstance! Drivers kill thousands of pedestrians and cyclists every year, a tragedy that is repeated in cities and towns throughout our nation. The incidence of cyclists killing others is miniscule by comparison, and not something that the vast majority of cities and towns in this country experience in a lifetime.

    Is Commenter 2 saying that since a cyclist killing a pedestrian is rare they should be prosecuted fully, but since motorists killing cyclists and pedestrians is commonplace it should only warrant a ticket?

  16. #41
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number400 View Post
    My point was that bicyclists are not being singled out for drives to treat extra dangerously, rather that anyone on the road is at risk from dangerous driving. I would be happy to have people yell at me to get off the road as it means that they have seen me, which is half the battle.
    Yes, Anyone on the road can be treated that way. But do you GET OFF THE ROAD!!!, GET ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD!!!, being yelled at to pedestrians/motorized wheel chairs crossing the street, and as often.

    I do agree that, a motorist's 'negativity' towards a cyclist is not good. The flipside also means that they see the cyclist and they are not being 'blind as a bat'.

  17. #42
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number400 View Post
    My point was that bicyclists are not being singled out for drives to treat extra dangerously,
    There are drivers that single out cyclists for a little extra fun. And all to often, it is not the motorist behavior that is controversial, but the use of video to catch the crime.

    (before so many start saying "that is not a close pass, what is the big deal", the video camera has a wide angle lens and the car is much closer than it appears - just like with side mirrors.)
    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/05/0...ra-by-cyclist/
    Last edited by CB HI; 12-01-13 at 04:35 PM.
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  18. #43
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    There are drivers that single out cyclists for a little extra fun. And all to often, it is not the motorist behavior that is controversial, but the use of video to catch the crime.

    (before so many start saying "that is not a close pass, what is the big deal", the video camera has a wide angle lens and the car is much closer than it appears - just like with side mirrors.)
    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/05/0...ra-by-cyclist/
    I have seen some of the 'regulars', pull that on me, when I am out on my ride. They pull it every time they see me.

  19. #44
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    They also won't accept bike camera footage, because they don't trust it.
    Accept for what?

    As a rule of thumb, police will not issue moving violations based on video evidence of a violation.that they did not personally witness. This may be because of law, department policy or simply due to what happens when it goes to court -- the judge or defense attorney will ask why the ticket was written, and they'll talk about the video, but they'll also need the person who took the video to testify that it covers what they think it covers, and that person may not be there -- without that person's testifying about its accuracy, I believe the video may be considered hearsay.

    They trust their own video because it's backed up by their own observations, and they can personally testify as to its accuracy.

    Now, if you get a ticket and have video that proves your innocence, the courts should be willing to at least consider your exculpatory evidence (as you will be testifying as to its accuracy). Or if it's a civil case, that court should be willing to accept the evidence as well.

    Ultimately, my point is that this refusal to "accept video evidence" may not be as nefarious as it sounds, but instead just a side-effect of how police work with the rest of the justice system, and certainly not something that's specifically biased against cyclists.

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    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Accept for what?

    As a rule of thumb, police will not issue moving violations based on video evidence of a violation.that they did not personally witness. This may be because of law, department policy or simply due to what happens when it goes to court -- the judge or defense attorney will ask why the ticket was written, and they'll talk about the video, but they'll also need the person who took the video to testify that it covers what they think it covers, and that person may not be there -- without that person's testifying about its accuracy, I believe the video may be considered hearsay.

    They trust their own video because it's backed up by their own observations, and they can personally testify as to its accuracy.

    Now, if you get a ticket and have video that proves your innocence, the courts should be willing to at least consider your exculpatory evidence (as you will be testifying as to its accuracy). Or if it's a civil case, that court should be willing to accept the evidence as well.

    Ultimately, my point is that this refusal to "accept video evidence" may not be as nefarious as it sounds, but instead just a side-effect of how police work with the rest of the justice system, and certainly not something that's specifically biased against cyclists.
    Sounds like you are just making up a bunch of junk. What basis do you have for any of these claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    without that person's testifying about its accuracy, I believe the video may be considered hearsay.
    Now think about this claim for a second. Are you telling us that if a store clerk was murdered, that police would not use the video from a surveillance system because the clerk cannot testify as to its accuracy? Complete made up rubbish.
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    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Sounds like you are just making up a bunch of junk. What basis do you have for any of these claims?
    For starters, this (though of course not all video is digital, but the general idea remains.) Or another citation would be this, go down to the "Audiovisual Media" part.

    Also, remember that I was was talking about when the *police* will accept video evidence -- not the courts (though my citations are more about the courts, because the police tend to eschew it because it's more difficult to use in court when the person who took it isn't there to testify.)

    It's rare that you can convince a cop to cite somebody for a traffic violation based solely on your own observations and video evidence that you provided, when they didn't personally witness the violation. There are some places where it's easier, but in general it's quite difficult.

    Now think about this claim for a second. Are you telling us that if a store clerk was murdered, that police would not use the video from a surveillance system because the clerk cannot testify as to its accuracy? Complete made up rubbish.
    Now think about this question for a second -- do you really think that the police assign the same priority to investigating a murder as investigating somebody running a red light, that the two investigations follow the same rules?

    For starters, in Texas, the police are limited in when they can arrest/cite for misdemeanors they did not personally witness. They sometimes will do it anyways (and there are some exceptions in the law, for things like domestic violence and disturbing the peace), but really ... such exceptions are rare. But for felonies (like a murder) -- there's no such limitation. Not that Texas law applies anywhere but Texas, but such things are not uncommon. And even if the law doesn't have such limitations, departments often have policies along those lines. And even if they don't, officers are reluctant to use such statements or evidence because they can be difficult to back up in court (for a minor traffic violation. For a murder trial, they'll accept the difficulty.)
    Last edited by dougmc; 12-01-13 at 11:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    For starters, this (though of course not all video is digital, but the general idea remains.) Or another citation would be this, go down to the "Audiovisual Media" part.

    Also, remember that I was was talking about when the *police* will accept video evidence -- not the courts (though my citations are more about the courts, because the police tend to eschew it because it's more difficult to use in court when the person who took it isn't there to testify.)

    It's rare that you can convince a cop to cite somebody for a traffic violation based solely on your own observations and video evidence that you provided, when they didn't personally witness the violation. There are some places where it's easier, but in general it's quite difficult.

    Now think about this question for a second -- do you really think that the police assign the same priority to investigating a murder as investigating somebody running a red light, that the two investigations follow the same rules?

    For starters, in Texas, the police are limited in when they can arrest/cite for misdemeanors they did not personally witness. They sometimes will do it anyways (and there are some exceptions in the law, for things like domestic violence and disturbing the peace), but really ... such exceptions are rare. But for felonies (like a murder) -- there's no such limitation. Not that Texas law applies anywhere but Texas, but such things are not uncommon. And even if the law doesn't have such limitations, departments often have policies along those lines. And even if they don't, officers are reluctant to use such statements or evidence because they can be difficult to back up in court (for a minor traffic violation. For a murder trial, they'll accept the difficulty.)
    You are still blowing tons of smoke. Each court system has one set of rules of evidence. Those are the set of rules the courts and cops have to play by. The cops do not get to just make up their own variable rules.

    And your wiki link shows how what you have said is so much smoke.
    Last edited by CB HI; 12-02-13 at 01:38 AM.
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    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Y The cops do not get to just make up their own variable rules.
    The cops don't get to decide which minor issues (moving violations are generally minor issues if there's no collision) they decide to investigate?

    If you can't get the cops to file charges, (and the DA isn't going to do it for you for a minor moving violation) it doesn't matter how good your evidence is.

    Now, if somebody dies, they're much more likely to take it all seriously, but that's not really the case I was covering.

    It's pretty clear you didn't really care what basis I had for my "claims", you had already made up your mind and that was that.

    And your wiki link shows how what you have said is so much smoke.
    It was to explain the "hearsay" bit. What basis do you have for your claims?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    It was to explain the "hearsay" bit. What basis do you have for your claims?
    If cops do not investigate, it is because they are too lazy, not because video or pictures are hearsay. Your wiki hearsay is really dealing with digital things like facebook pages, e-mails, blogs, twitter and such, not photos and video.
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    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    If cops do not investigate, it is because they are too lazy, not because video or pictures are hearsay.
    They're not always hearsay, but they're harder to work with in a court room if the person who actually took them is not there to testify, and the cops don't know that you'll be there.

    Remember, we're talking about minor moving violations (well, I was.) The cop's laziness is absolutely a factor -- if they didn't personally witness the violation, things get a lot more complicated for them to support if it goes to court. Most handle this by just not giving tickets for things they didn't see or weren't confessed to them.

    Your wiki hearsay is really dealing with digital things like facebook pages, e-mails, blogs, twitter and such, not photos and video.
    And did you see the other link I provided, the one about courtroom rules of evidence?

    In case you didn't, I'll quote it for you --

    Audiovisual Media
    Photographs or video recordings of evidence are important to your case. In order to be admissible, someone must testify that they reasonably represent the thing or person that was photographed or filmed. The person giving testimony concerning the item either must have taken it herself or been present when it was taken, so she can verify that the film or photograph accurately represents what it is purported to represent.
    Now, this is a very simplified overview of a complicated matter, and it can vary from state to state or even court to court, but in general video evidence doesn't stand on its own -- somebody has to testify about who took it, what it recorded, etc. A cop might do that for you for a traffic violation -- but they probably won't. And even if they did, they're just testifying about what you told him.

    Here's a page that talks specifically about video evidence, how it's often considered hearsay, if the digital files part confuses you -- the rules are very similar.

    Present it as you see fit, but the reality is ... the police will rarely issue minor traffic citations based solely on video evidence -- they generally have to have seen the violation themselves, or have had the violator confess their crime to them. Call the reason laziness if you want, but there is more to it than that, with some bonafide legal reasons for it -- but laziness is certainly a factor. Whatever the reason -- it doesn't happen often. (Now, cases involving felonies are a different matter ...)

    Video evidence generally is admissible in court, however -- but in general the person who took the video or is responsible for it will need to be there to testify about the video -- what it covers, when it was taken, etc. Without that testimony, the video may be ruled to be hearsay and not allowed to be admitted.

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