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Thread: I refuse.

  1. #51
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    What's the problem boys? At least in what I've read so far all of the "safety" gear the OP refuses to use are not required items. Now if he wanted to run total night-ninja with no lights or reflectors at all after dark or in inclement weather then that would be an actual problem and clearly codified as such in the mutual agreed to by society rules of the road.

    No one is required to use optional additional "safety" gear. If he don't want too, that's his loss.






    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Now if we are just doing a thread on the pros. and cons. of such items then my personal $0.02 on some of the things so far discussed would be:

    ----- A few really good lights are much better then a whole bunch of pathetic little wimpy ones (and a lot easier to maintain and keep fresh batteries).

    ----- Currently I'm in the process of updating all my lighting systems on my bikes to 12.8v 4-cell LiFePO4 battery pack powered systems running full on 12v automotive LED lights especially those nice big 4" round and 6-6.5" oval bright LED truck tail-lights that are bright enough to meet commercial motor-vehicle standards and those powerful rotating strobes in red and amber like they put on top of plow trucks and such.

    ----- Cameras are a good idea but can be a pain, I haven't made the leap to start running a camera(s) myself but am very close to it. I know for sure that one thing that I really don't want to do is mount a big Go-Pro or similar big ugly thing to my helmet, to the bike not a problem but anything on the helmet is going to need to be small and tight.

    ----- Mirrors can be helpful but should never be relied upon, learn to turn your head and use your ears and at night track shadow arc angles from approaching headlights from behind as well since mirrors don't show the big picture.

    ----- I never could get used to helmet mirrors myself and handle-bar mirrors where the angle changes when the bars are turned aren't ideal for me. I prefer a hard frame mounted mirror which on a normal upright bike I mount a mirror on a short arm sticking out a little less then the handlebars to the left of the head tube at just the right angle to show what is behind me with my pumping left leg in the edge of the view. Gives me the most stable and consistent rear view mirror for me.




    --------------------------------------------------

    Also, to the person claiming that bikes don't need mirrors because they don't back up and that is what mirrors on cars are for (backing up). People who just look in the mirror when they back up a car are being dangerous and scare me. The only reason you only use the mirrors when backing up is if your backing up a vehicle where he can't turn around and look and even then you are extremely careful doing so and many times with a large truck you actually get out of the truck and do a walk around before backing up when you have to use only your mirrors to do so and if you don't you will be liable if you back over someone and hurt or kill them.

    This coming from someone who actually often drives 2-5 ton, 6-10 wheel, short trucks and other large vehicles. In fact I'm usually either on a bike or driving a truck (a real truck not one of those little light duty pickup trucks) and driving a light car is the minority after those other two.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 11-30-13 at 07:31 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    My experience is quite different. There are five times that I bailed off the road based on my mirror and not on my hearing. In an urban area, there is just too much noise and traffic to rely on hearing. One of the five times, the motorist braked hard and stopped before they would have hit me. The other four times, the motorist would have plowed right through me: 1 guy was picking up a CD player off the floorboard, 1 woman was reading a religious pamphlet, 1 old guy had glaucoma and could only see a tunnel in front of him (he side swipe a car on a freeway ramp 2 weeks later), and the last 1 was likely a DUI.

    And there was the one time I held my line as two cars crashed behind me and 1 went right of me and the other went left of me.
    Egads!

    I guess we do have a bias going on here. Anyone who has set themselves up in such a way that it doesn't work for the way they ride where they ride may not be around long enough to know if it works for them. I suspect my experience is changing as I slow down and the quality of my hearing and vision is deteriorating. Hopefully, I'll make the adjustment to using a mirror before I need one; it looks like yours has served you well.

  3. #53
    Twilight Requiem AdrianFly's Avatar
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    I've got a groovy bar-end Mirrycle on my summer and winter hardtail MTB's. Looks awesome! Although, while I still use head checks for all situations that require them I like the mirror for monitoring the continuous flow of traffic along the road behind, next and ahead of me block after block. I wear helmets too.. even a Bern Watts with a winter liner for.. winter. I've wiped out on several occasions and the helmets at the minimum saved me from a lump or concussion. I do stupid sht sometimes and require the gear to help with that. It's my reponsibility to do so.

    Others do differently. No helmets, no blinkies, Ipods.. whatever. As long as you are fine and not harming others then so what.. imho.

    Odds are that I'll choke to death on a burger before I suffer a fatality due to not wearing a helmet, not having a hivis vest or mirror. However, I do as I do out of choice and personal experience in a positive light. Not out of fear, worry and terror. People may laugh, call me dork, point fingers but it's a free country and I can take it. If my personal safety principals make someone who's having a bad day feel better about themselves then my accessories have again paid off.

    Bottom line: Bicycle wisely and proper and you most likely will never require the fancy stuff. Do not let fear and worry dominate your life. Even a short life is better lived happy and free from fear then a long one conquered and controlled by it. Each person must find what suits them best and have the confidence to stand by their decisions. The problems seem to start when a person isn't allowed to "discover" what suits them best but is assaulted via means of marketing and promotion of products. Harassment and beratement tactics by those who use them only cloud the air of clarity that could otherwise serve as a positive light to another who may be considering.

    Walks, I accept and respect your decision to refuse. We are free men and should be allowed the right to behave in that manner every now and then.


    The Bearded Fred: Only known cyclist left in the world to be 100% natural and completely free from performance enhancing drugs. Also known for self reliance, amazing talent for satisfying the women and great guitar riffs. Honestly, a full racing kit is absolutely the most ridiculous looking stuff you can wear short of a clown suit."

  4. #54
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    So, If someone runs you off the road causing you serious injury and the police blame you. When you obviously didn't cause the accident, you won't pursue it?
    I didn't post anything to get me into that/this dispute. It is true... many police consider bicycles to be an obstruction [of traffic] in some areas. I can't say I ether always agree with or completely disagree with the police. But I do agree.... that bicycles most certainly CAN be an obstruction of traffic.

    I've seen many cyclists doing foolish and dangerous stuff. I've even made my share of stupid mistakes on a bike. I've also seen motorist do crap that made me want to pull them from their cars and beat the crap out of them. The police have also seen both.

    Not every road, street, and/or highway is a safe place to ride a bicycle. If the police think you're and obstruction and/or the fault of the accident.... it may be possible... they are correct.

    Bicycles, motorcycles, lawn mowing equipment, chain saws, power tools, even the common automobile can all cause serious ouchies. I accept that life has injuries. My fragility is not the fault of someone or something else. I will break, I will hurt, I will die.

    I accept my fragility.... AND I am a cyclist. Not everyone can do both. Cycling isn't for everyone.

  5. #55
    Cycle Dallas MMACH 5's Avatar
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    OP,
    Your rant is a complaint about safety measures that some CHOOSE to take with THEMSELVES? These have no effect on you, whatsoever.

    I don't like cranberry sauce. Maybe I can find a forum to rage about those who insist on making it a part of Thanksgiving dinner.
    That's gonna leave a mark.

  6. #56
    Seņior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why you're posting it either. If there's anyone here that cares what you (or I, or anyone else) is wearing, they need to get a life.

    I am not actually aware of wearing a high-vis vest when I'm riding, so if the 10 seconds it takes to put it on at the beginning of the ride "sucks all the fun out" of a ride, you must not be having very much fun on a ride.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  7. #57
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    . . . so if the 10 seconds it takes to put it on at the beginning of the ride "sucks all the fun out" of a ride, you must not be having very much fun on a ride.
    I love that line !!! Such a good little quip without being nasty.

    Although I should mention that me personally sometimes when its hot in the summer I do like to just jump on a bike bare chested wearing only a pair of swim trunks and some good tennis shoes (pedaling in saddles sucks) and take a quick 5-10 mile ride down to the nearest good source of cold clean water to jump into. Tried wearing the vest once and it stuck to my bare skin chest and felt weird and sticky. But so long as its not over a bare chest but on top of at least a T-shirt I totally agree, not an issue.

  8. #58
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I didn't post anything to get me into that/this dispute. It is true... many police consider bicycles to be an obstruction [of traffic] in some areas. I can't say I ether always agree with or completely disagree with the police. But I do agree.... that bicycles most certainly CAN be an obstruction of traffic.
    I was saying in future tense. Because you said you will not pursue litigation. As for bicycles being an OBSTRUCTION to traffic, that is subjective, not absolute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    [B]I've seen many cyclists doing foolish and dangerous stuff. I've even made my share of stupid mistakes on a bike. I've also seen motorist do crap that made me want to pull them from their cars and beat the crap out of them. The police have also seen both.
    Granted. I have seen some cyclists' riding ninja-style during PM rush many times. It would make me think they have been smoking some hallucinigenic drug to be that stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    [B]Not every road, street, and/or highway is a safe place to ride a bicycle. If the police think you're and obstruction and/or the fault of the accident.... it may be possible... they are correct.
    That is subjective, both in evidence, the attitude of local law enforcement, and whether an attorney is willing to take a case, to fight law enforcement bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    [B]Bicycles, motorcycles, lawn mowing equipment, chain saws, power tools, even the common automobile can all cause serious ouchies. I accept that life has injuries. My fragility is not the fault of someone or something else. I will break, I will hurt, I will die.
    That is a bit of a fatalistic attitude. While the break/hurt/die element is a potential in a situation, don't ride with that outlook. Be aware of the potential, yes. Just don't ride blissfully unaware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    [B]I accept my fragility.... AND I am a cyclist. Not everyone can do both. Cycling isn't for everyone.
    Well, The same invariably applies to motorists'. They need to accept their own fragility despite being better protected. Twenty-one years ago, a teacher of mine was killed on a weekend, when his pickup truck was broadsided by another motorist that ran a red light at a major intersection. I am not saying my teacher was ignorant of that. But that even a 'steel cage' cannot be absolute security.

    A cyclist's best safety tool, apart from not getting a bike at all. Is situational awareness and experience.
    Last edited by Chris516; 12-02-13 at 12:58 AM.

  9. #59
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    . . . Not every road, street, and/or highway is a safe place to ride a bicycle. . . .
    I get what you are trying to say but so many times I have seen the "but it ain't safe so we are going to ban the potential vulnerable victims from daring to be in the same general area as the idiots operating potential lethal machines in a dangerous manner" blaming the victims just for daring to be there rather then dealing with the perps. who are the real danger.

    For this reason I prefer to refer to this as "the odds" when cycling on a road. Some roads the odds are very good, others the odds are much more unfriendly. Any an all roads can be safe places to cycle unfortunately some idiots behaving in very dangerous ways with very dangerous machines wreck it for everyone else.

    Lets put the blame there and not be trying to shift it.

  10. #60
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
    I am a responsible guy, married, and I have a 20-month-old little girl. I'm in my last year of aerospace engineering school. I ride bikes for fun and for transport. I have been a bicycle commuter for the last 2+ years of school, but have been riding bikes of an on for about 8 years before that. How I ride, how I carry my stuff, and what type of gear I use has slowly evolved.

    From the beginning, and even today, I will not ride without my helmet and a front and rear light. The helmet is it's own thread (like that overblown sticky), but I wear it because I'm interested in living and don't trust drivers. Lights just flat out make sense.

    However, I REFUSE to live a life where I must don hi-vis vests at all times, wear a helmet mirror, constantly run a go-pro camera for collecting evidence, or run seven rear lights and 4 front. That would simply suck all the joy out of biking for me. It would feel like letting the terrorists win.

    Not even sure why I'm posting this (or why I'm putting it in A&S), but there ya go.
    I don't wear a high vis vest unless I am touring or riding in snowstorms, don't use a mirror, don't use a go-pro, and run normal lights so I can see and be seen.

    Some days I don't even wear a helmet.

  11. #61
    Senior Member limeylew's Avatar
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  12. #62
    Senior Member BobbyG's Avatar
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    Your "refusal list" will shorten over the years. Imagine your daughter riding her bike in traffic in the future. You will find yourself wanting to set a good example for her. I think you are rebelling against the onset of adult and parental responsibility.
    "When life hands you lumens, make lumen-aide!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    I don't wear a high vis vest unless I am touring or riding in snowstorms, don't use a mirror, don't use a go-pro, and run normal lights so I can see and be seen.

    Some days I don't even wear a helmet.

    Ditto. I wear helmets when I train and commute but never when riding socially or shopping.
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  14. #64
    Big, Fat, Texan WalksOn2Wheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubiecat View Post
    WalksOn2Wheels, looks like you just like to post wall texts of gibberish.
    Welcome to the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianFly View Post
    Bottom line: Bicycle wisely and proper and you most likely will never require the fancy stuff. Do not let fear and worry dominate your life. Even a short life is better lived happy and free from fear then a long one conquered and controlled by it. Each person must find what suits them best and have the confidence to stand by their decisions. The problems seem to start when a person isn't allowed to "discover" what suits them best but is assaulted via means of marketing and promotion of products. Harassment and beratement tactics by those who use them only cloud the air of clarity that could otherwise serve as a positive light to another who may be considering.
    That's a damn good bottom line. Thanks for saying it more eloquently.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMACH 5 View Post
    OP,
    Your rant is a complaint about safety measures that some CHOOSE to take with THEMSELVES? These have no effect on you, whatsoever.

    I don't like cranberry sauce. Maybe I can find a forum to rage about those who insist on making it a part of Thanksgiving dinner.
    See Adrian's post above. That's what I was trying to say, I was just being mean about it. By the way, I also hate cranberry sauce, but made it from scratch for this year's dinner. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    I'm not sure why you're posting it either. If there's anyone here that cares what you (or I, or anyone else) is wearing, they need to get a life.

    I am not actually aware of wearing a high-vis vest when I'm riding, so if the 10 seconds it takes to put it on at the beginning of the ride "sucks all the fun out" of a ride, you must not be having very much fun on a ride.
    It's not the 10 seconds of putting it on, it's the point of seeking out and buying one and wearing it regardless of climate/conditions all because it makes me slightly more visible (I wear a backpack when commuting, so a vest wouldn't really help at all. Maybe that's why I like my hi-vis arm warmers?) than the already relatively bright clothing I'm wearing. It would be an extra step out of paranoia for paranoia's sake. And, again, you basically told me that anyone who hassles you about what you wear needs to get a life then proceeded to hassle me about not wearing a vest. Perhaps indirectly, but it's still there.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
    Your "refusal list" will shorten over the years. Imagine your daughter riding her bike in traffic in the future. You will find yourself wanting to set a good example for her. I think you are rebelling against the onset of adult and parental responsibility.
    And here we are again. You are directly passing judgement on me. I fail to see how 2 or 3 good lights, a good helmet and sensible riding are inherently a bad example. Would you like to continue to tell me how I am an irresponsible father for not wearing more hi-vis, a helmet mirror, and 5 more lights on my bike? This is EXACTLY why I put this out here. I'm tired of encountering this attitude. Again, I'm being an ass about it. Please read Adrian's post above.

  15. #65
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
    I am a responsible guy, married, and I have a 20-month-old little girl. I'm in my last year of aerospace engineering school. I ride bikes for fun and for transport. I have been a bicycle commuter for the last 2+ years of school, but have been riding bikes of an on for about 8 years before that. How I ride, how I carry my stuff, and what type of gear I use has slowly evolved.

    From the beginning, and even today, I will not ride without my helmet and a front and rear light. The helmet is it's own thread (like that overblown sticky), but I wear it because I'm interested in living and don't trust drivers. Lights just flat out make sense.

    However, I REFUSE to live a life where I must don hi-vis vests at all times, wear a helmet mirror, constantly run a go-pro camera for collecting evidence, or run seven rear lights and 4 front. That would simply suck all the joy out of biking for me. It would feel like letting the terrorists win.


    Not even sure why I'm posting this (or why I'm putting it in A&S), but there ya go.
    Do you ever drive a car? Do you also refuse to buckle up, or allow the vast array of automatic safety equipment of the auto to work? Do you use a mirror in the car?

    When you share the road with autos, you may want to at least enable some safety gear to "level the playing field" with motorists.

  16. #66
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
    However, I REFUSE to live a life where I must don hi-vis vests at all times...
    Hi-vis clothing is normal work wear for about half the population (and has nothing to do with terrorists). What's the problem with wearing it while cycling?

  17. #67
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
    I refuse to have an opinion about this.

    That's the feed me already and stop playing with that thing look.
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    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Hi-vis clothing is normal work wear for about half the population (and has nothing to do with terrorists). What's the problem with wearing it while cycling?
    It's not blue. That and am I suposed to tow a gym locker in 15F winter cold? Sometimes you need to rely on your wits and experience and not ugly jackets. Wearing a green and yellow striped vest won't make you impervious or at best 100% seen.

    Sure, it's probably helpful but it's also a placebo.

    Why are church missionaries not dying in droves when they aren't always given a car? They wear a SUIT.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
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    Senior Member BobbyG's Avatar
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    I can see where my comment may be misinterpreted. To clarify: It seems to me you are rebelling against the onset of responsibility which you will most likey accept and assume as opposed to shirk and ignore. Further, I was making an assumption that you were relatively young and rebelious.

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    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    That's the feed me already and stop playing with that thing look.
    I think it was actually her "my arch enemy has entered the room and is probably about to hiss at me, I had better puff myself out" look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    That's the feed me already and stop playing with that thing look.
    I thought she's saying "Don't you have something better for me?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    That's the feed me already and stop playing with that thing look.
    I thought she's saying "Don't you have something better for me?"

  23. #73
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Hi-vis clothing is normal work wear for about half the population...
    Where?

  24. #74
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Where?
    I know that road construction and maintenance crews and public utility construction and maintenance crew have to wear hi-vis vests at work, all of which are usually working on or very close to the roadways, also school crossing guards I think.

    I do agree with you though that its a probably a considerable exaggeration that its half the population. It is notable though that those who work on or in close proximity to the public roadways its required work wear which might be a good clue for cyclists. Although I will fully admit that I only wear one about half the time and the only time I really have a even slightly decent excuse for not doing so is the bare chested stick to my skin an feel weird thing.

    I'm all in favor of safety gear but at the same time beyond the bare minimum it shouldn't be a mandatory thing and it is nice sometimes to just jump on a bike and ride without having to mess with all that stuff. After all with the rare exception it isn't us cyclist who are doing the maiming and killing on the roads by not being careful enough. The emphasis for safety should be on those who are.

  25. #75
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    I like chocolate cake.



    I don't like peanut butter. Anyone who eats peanut butter is letting the terrorists win.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

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