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  1. #76
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    Just one overridding point comes to mind in this case. It clearly says it was a 4 lane road. How can traffic be "impeaded" when all the drivers have to do is pass on the inside lane on the left?

  2. #77
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    One other thing occurs to me, Damon actually did cyclist everywhere a service. Other towns with pigheaded police that dont know the law will take notice.

  3. #78
    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I've since learned to avoid such confrontations and so far have managed to cope with authoritative ignorance with some finesse.

    Should I fail to do so and it results in a citation or arrest I will most certainly turn to the wisdom of the self appointed experts in the A&S sub-forum of BF for help and for your assistance in particular.
    We're here for you man!

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    You're not offering logic. You're offering assertions and ignorance.

    Here's an example (2, really) of cycling on the shoulder not being in accordance with traffic law:

    http://walkbikejersey.blogspot.com/2...riding-in.html
    He wasn't cited for traveling on the shoulder. He was cited for "failure to exercise due care when passing a standing or slow-moving vehicle proceeding in the same direction."

    And contrary to the blogger's assertion that cycling on the shoulder is illegal in New Jersey, cyclists on the shoulder simply "do not have special privileges."

    And lets get to the "privileges" of cyclists in New Jersey.

    Far more concern in Polzo v County of Essex, the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that roads are for cars, trucks, and motorcycles, not bicycles. So a road hazard that is a hazard to bicycles, but not to cars, trucks or motorcycles, well, the commonwealth and its subdivisions is simply not liable. (Oddly, it seems that the only place the Commonwealth of New Jersey has responsibility to cyclists is designated bike lanes. Not even MUPs.)

    -mr. bill

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
    Far more concern in Polzo v County of Essex, the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that roads are for cars, trucks, and motorcycles, not bicycles. So a road hazard that is a hazard to bicycles, but not to cars, trucks or motorcycles, well, the commonwealth and its subdivisions is simply not liable. (Oddly, it seems that the only place the Commonwealth of New Jersey has responsibility to cyclists is designated bike lanes. Not even MUPs.)

    -mr. bill
    No they didn't. They ruled that a person riding a bicycle traveling on the shoulder in New Jersey is not given the privileges and duties of a vehicle operator, because they are not operating on the roadway. If the cyclist was on the roadway NJ would have a responsibility.

    http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jers...2/a-74-10.html
    3. In deciding whether the County was on notice of a dangerous condition on the roadway s shoulder, the Court considers basic principles of law governing roadways. The Motor Vehicle Code provides that a roadway is the portion of highway generally used for vehicular travel; the shoulder borders the roadway and is for emergency use; and vehicles are not bicycles. Bicyclists are directed to ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable. While they may be inclined to ride on the shoulder, they have no special privileges if they do

    4. ...Plaintiff offered no evidence that the shoulder was routinely used as a bicycle lane, which might implicate a different standard of care. The generally intended purpose of the shoulder is for emergency use.

    5. Even if the County had notice that the depression was a dangerous condition, a reasonable jury could not find that the failure to repair it was palpably unreasonable...A public entity might reasonably give lesser priority to the shoulder of a roadway, which is not intended for ordinary travel.
    Relevant portions of the NJ laws:

    http://law.onecle.com/new-jersey/39-...ic-regulation/
    39:1-1 Words and phrases defined.
    ...
    "Driver" means the rider or driver of a horse, bicycle or motorcycle or the driver or operator of a motor vehicle, unless otherwise specified.
    ...
    "Roadway" means that portion of a highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the berm or shoulder. In the event a highway includes two or more separate roadways, the term "roadway" as used herein shall refer to any such roadway separately, but not to all such roadways, collectively.
    39:4-14.1 Rights, duties of bicycle riders on roadways, exemptions.

    16. a. Every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by chapter four of Title 39 of the Revised Statutes and all supplements thereto except as to those provisions thereof which by their nature can have no application.

    Regulations applicable to bicycles shall apply whenever a bicycle is operated upon any highway or upon any path set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles subject to those exceptions stated herein.

    b.A law enforcement officer operating a bicycle while in the performance of his duty, and who is engaged in the apprehension of violators of the law or of persons charged with, or suspected of, a violation shall not be subject to the provisions of this section.

    L.1951,c.23,s.16; amended 1999, c.283.

    39:4-14.2. Keeping to right; exceptions; single file
    Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction; provided, however, that any person may move to the left under any of the following situations:

    (a) to make a left turn from a left-turn lane or pocket;

    (b) to avoid debris, drains or other hazardous conditions that make it impracticable to ride at the right side of the roadway;

    (c) to pass a slower moving vehicle;

    (d) to occupy any available lane when traveling at the same speed as other traffic;

    (e) to travel no more than two abreast when traffic is not impeded.

    Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway may travel no more than two abreast when traffic is not impeded, but otherwise shall ride in single file except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.
    If the person riding the bicycle had been riding on the roadway, he / she would have been "granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle." But they weren't; they were on a shoulder.

  6. #81
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    It occurs to me that after the dust up in Blackhawk Co, cities and their B'crats would have learned their lesson. But it seems that the bike haters always have a few members on the city councils.

    A question-------------------are there any states that dont allow bicycles all the rights of auto traffic?

  7. #82
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    One thing is certain. The lawyer came out ahead.
    Yup, and taxpayers got royally screwed, all because one guy wanted to hog a lane on a bike going 15mph.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  8. #83
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    It occurs to me that after the dust up in Blackhawk Co, cities and their B'crats would have learned their lesson. But it seems that the bike haters always have a few members on the city councils.

    A question-------------------are there any states that dont allow bicycles all the rights of auto traffic?
    That is subjective. For instance in Maryland, the state says no, but gives the counties the right to disagree. The counties turn around and allow the cities the right to agree with the county, or the state. The city nearest to my town, agrees' with the state. While the next city south of me, agrees' with the county.

    But that is pursuant to riding a bike on the sidewalk. As far as the traffic laws in specific, that I am aware of, the same applies in all jurisdictions(except for the sidewalk).

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Yup, and taxpayers got royally screwed, all because one guy wanted to hog a lane on a bike going 15mph.
    No, taxpayers got screwed because the police harassed one cyclist who was following the law instead of enforcing the actual traffic laws.

  10. #85
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Yup, and taxpayers got royally screwed, all because one guy wanted to hog a lane on a bike going 15mph.
    You really do hate cyclists that do not ride like you.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    If only you had been there to present that incredibly compelling argument to the NJ Supreme Court! Alas, they only read the laws as written.
    The court didn't say you couldn't ride in the shoulder. They only said the rider can't expect that the state is going to maintain it so it is suitable for riding. The purpose of the shoulder isn't for travelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    We've argued this before, and I have shown you many instances where the left lane is referring to the opposing lane, including the NYS Driver's manual chapter on passing.
    And you still are incorrect. It's "right HAND" lane that the law talks about. The opposing lane is never called the "left HAND" lane. And "left" isn't used to refer to the opposing lane in the law. And it's a "Driving manual", not the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    Also court cases where vehicles in the right lane were found not guilty of violating SMV law even when they didn't use the shoulder
    ???? I've said repeatedly that drivers and cyclists are not required to use the shoulder. Why are you using a case that supports that against that? Bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    You're not offering logic. You're offering assertions and ignorance.


    Here's an example (2, really) of cycling on the shoulder not being in accordance with traffic law:


    http://walkbikejersey.blogspot.com/2...riding-in.html

    No.


    In the Batista case, the cyclist would (likely) have gotten the ticket even if he had been riding in the roadway. In the other case, there wasn't any determination that you could not choose to ride in the shoulder. It only determined that you could not expect that the state was required to make it suitable for riding.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 12-09-13 at 06:09 AM.

  12. #87
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    brian

    The reason that the taxpayers got screwed is because of the cop and the administration that the taxpayers voted in. In effect the taxpayers screw themselves by bad decisions on who to vote for. Live and learn and try thinking for a change.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    You really do hate cyclists that do not ride like you.
    Careful now, I might have to report you...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  14. #89
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    brian

    The reason that the taxpayers got screwed is because of the cop and the administration that the taxpayers voted in. In effect the taxpayers screw themselves by bad decisions on who to vote for. Live and learn and try thinking for a change.
    I saw this guy's videos. I've ridden a lot of places. There was no need to be doing what he was doing.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  15. #90
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I saw this guy's videos. I've ridden a lot of places. There was no need to be doing what he was doing.
    Was he breaking the law?

    Answer - no.

    You just disapprove of his riding even though it is legal.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  16. #91
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Was he breaking the law?

    Answer - no.

    You just disapprove of his riding even though it is legal.
    Yup, I suppose I do (don't look too hard in the mirror though). People who ride like that make it so drivers allow me less leeway when I take the lane in truly difficult situations.

    You talked before about the so-called "FRAP" laws... well, rude cyclists such as this guy are the reason why the general public is not persuaded that it is in everyone's best interest to fix these laws. So, thanks for that...

    Seriously though, yes, there are legalities, but there are also politics regarding riding on the road, particularly if the road is unimproved for cycling. Vehicular cycling is fundamentally a negotiation between us and vehicles which are bigger, faster, and less maneuverable than us. Distracting drivers by taking up a shared facility without good reason when better alternatives exist is not really in anyone's best interest.

    You folks would learn a lot by coming to Portland. Not the outer suburbs, and not the city core, but the surrounding old suburbs where there are a ton of cyclists, all making use of both cycling facilities and vehicular cycling techniques.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-10-13 at 12:21 AM.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  17. #92
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Yup, I suppose I do (don't look too hard in the mirror though). People who ride like that make it so drivers allow me less leeway when I take the lane in truly difficult situations.

    You talked before about the so-called "FRAP" laws... well, rude cyclists such as this guy are the reason why the general public is not persuaded that it is in everyone's best interest to fix these laws. So, thanks for that...
    So now you jump to the blame other cyclists game, for motorist direct actions, how cute.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  18. #93
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    So now you jump to the blame other cyclists game, for motorist direct actions, how cute.
    There were actually no "direct actions" by motorists in this instance. I am simply blaming the cyclist here. He was out to make a statement. I don't agree with his statement, especially as he purports to represent me. Not everything that is technically legal is right.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  19. #94
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    There were actually no "direct actions" by motorists in this instance. I am simply blaming the cyclist here. He was out to make a statement. I don't agree with his statement, especially as he purports to represent me. Not everything that is technically legal is right.
    He was legally riding a bicycle and it was the police that decided they would make a statement. The police were too stupid to leave a legal cyclist alone.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  20. #95
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    CB +1

    That is the whole truth in a nut shell.

  21. #96
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    He was legally riding a bicycle and it was the police that decided they would make a statement. The police were too stupid to leave a legal cyclist alone.
    Maybe so (about the police), god knows there aren't many people in this incident that come out looking good. Dude is no friend to cyclists' rights. My guess is someone in the Mass. legislature will start bringing up a FRAP law if you guys make a lot of noise about this. You'd better wish that nobody follows in this dude's footprints. Three guys riding like this will affect hundreds of people a day; a FRAP law will have very little effort achieving majority support. In turn, that will affect any effort in Oregon to overturn ours.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  22. #97
    New Orleans
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    The rider is certainly a jerk- fanatic-no one anyone would care to spend time with.
    Thje cops were overly aggressive fools who didn't like their authority questioned
    The TAXPAYERS- footed the bill.
    $27,000 PLUS whatever the city county spent to pursue this BS-BETTING MORE than the $27,000 that he spent
    Plus whatever it costs to run these various courts
    So figure maybe $75,000-$100,000 for this BS
    All paid for by taxpayers-a full years pay benefits for someone
    AH+ AGGRESSIVE FOOLS =we foot the bill FOR $100,000

  23. #98
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Maybe so (about the police), god knows there aren't many people in this incident that come out looking good. Dude is no friend to cyclists' rights. My guess is someone in the Mass. legislature will start bringing up a FRAP law if you guys make a lot of noise about this. You'd better wish that nobody follows in this dude's footprints. Three guys riding like this will affect hundreds of people a day; a FRAP law will have very little effort achieving majority support. In turn, that will affect any effort in Oregon to overturn ours.
    Hogwash. The Mass. legislature will not do a thing and none of this will impact OR. The cyclist winning the Motion for Summary Judgement and forcing a settlement which ends police harassment is a good thing. Only in a few cyclist minds here, is that a bad thing.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  24. #99
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    The rider is certainly a jerk- fanatic-no one anyone would care to spend time with.
    Thje cops were overly aggressive fools who didn't like their authority questioned
    The TAXPAYERS- footed the bill.
    $27,000 PLUS whatever the city county spent to pursue this BS-BETTING MORE than the $27,000 that he spent
    Plus whatever it costs to run these various courts
    So figure maybe $75,000-$100,000 for this BS
    All paid for by taxpayers-a full years pay benefits for someone
    AH+ AGGRESSIVE FOOLS =we foot the bill FOR $100,000
    Sounds like the tax payers should fire some of their stupid police and prosecutors for costing the city $100,000 by harassing a cyclist.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Sounds like the tax payers should fire some of their stupid police and prosecutors for costing the city $100,000 by harassing a cyclist.
    Yes-someone with sense and authority- needed to tell them to back off.
    Court more or less did-but $100,000 too late.
    Guessing a little town like that-not a lot of serious crime-so cops apparently had lots of time on their hands.

    Most places-cops would warn him-suggest he do it differently-drive off and forget about it.Sure as heck not going to waste time on BS like that.
    It would be one of those self correcting situations. If what he was doing was sooooo dangerous-he would eventually pay a price.
    If not-who cares.
    The bike rider was baiting them-and they swallowed it whole. Just dumb

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