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  1. #101
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    The bike rider was baiting them-and they swallowed it whole. Just dumb
    The cyclist did not bait the cops. He tried to educate them and get them to see reason on previous occasions.

    On one occasion, after long lectures by two dumb bubba cops with the attitude of “I am a long time cop, I know the law, I do not need to look up the law, get off the road”; a Sargent showed up and told the two bubba cops that the cyclist was right and had done nothing wrong.
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  2. #102
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    Baiting in the sense that the rider wanted a court case-and he got it.
    Not baiting in the sense he did anything illegal.
    He couldn't possibly have been surprised that the cops continued to do what they had done many times before.
    Cops are not educable-certainly not curbside by a civilian-literally never.The "I have been a cop for ....." universal.
    Of course MOST adults are that way-hard to convince them that something they have done all their working lives-is WRONG- usually has ALWAYS been wrong.The learned it wrong-they practiced it wrong-they teach it wrong.All but impossible to change their minds.
    Very very few people would have wasted their time on this gigantic cluster F%$k.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Hogwash. The Mass. legislature will not do a thing and none of this will impact OR. The cyclist winning the Motion for Summary Judgement and forcing a settlement which ends police harassment is a good thing. Only in a few cyclist minds here, is that a bad thing.
    I don't agree.

    Eli Damon does not represent all cyclists. Many of us are expressing our opinion that he does not represent us. In fact, I would conjecture he represents a very small share of cyclists. And an even smaller share of road users of all types.

    The idea that the actions of cyclists like Eli Damon are for the "good of all" or even the "good of all cyclists", especially if it is based on the illusion that cyclists like Eli Damon "know better" than the vast majority of other cyclists, is a fantasy.

    Eli Damon represents himself. And he comes across to many of us as a self-involved, anti-social, self-righteous zealot, who is rightfully protected by certain civil rights and, to some degree, the vagaries of traffic law. But if this is bike advocacy at its finest or even it's worst then I want no part of it.

  4. #104
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I don't agree.

    Eli Damon does not represent all cyclists. Many of us are expressing our opinion that he does not represent us. In fact, I would conjecture he represents a very small share of cyclists. And an even smaller share of road users of all types.

    The idea that the actions of cyclists like Eli Damon are for the "good of all" or even the "good of all cyclists", especially if it is based on the illusion that cyclists like Eli Damon "know better" than the vast majority of other cyclists, is a fantasy.

    Eli Damon represents himself. And he comes across to many of us as a self-involved, anti-social, self-righteous zealot, who is rightfully protected by certain civil rights and, to some degree, the vagaries of traffic law. But if this is bike advocacy at its finest or even it's worst then I want no part of it.
    Yes, I know you are one who dislikes Eli Damon. The case affirms the right of cyclist to use the road. Sad that some believe that is a bad thing.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  5. #105
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Yes, I know you are one who dislikes Eli Damon. The case affirms the right of cyclist to use the road. Sad that some believe that is a bad thing.
    I don't know Eli Damon. I might actually like him.

    But I am not an admirer of his actions nor of his tactics in the circumstances being discussed in this thread. Whether the case affirms the right of a cyclist to use the road is, I would say, a matter of opinion. As to whether cyclists should have the right to the road I absolutely do not think it is a bad thing and that it is a thing worth defending- just not in the manner demonstrated by Eli Damon.

  6. #106
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I don't know Eli Damon. I might actually like him.

    But I am not an admirer of his actions nor of his tactics in the circumstances being discussed in this thread. Whether the case affirms the right of a cyclist to use the road is, I would say, a matter of opinion. As to whether cyclists should have the right to the road I absolutely do not think it is a bad thing and that it is a thing worth defending- just not in the manner demonstrated by Eli Damon.
    So when cops blatantly demand a legal cyclist get off the road and the education route has not worked, how do you propose to defend our rights?
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  7. #107
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    . . . Cops are not educable-certainly not curbside by a civilian-literally never. . .
    I just wish to address this one point and this point only on this thread (I'm sure you are quite aware of my feelings in general in regard to things like this).

    I have personally been able to successfully "curbside educate" several uniformed officers. I in no way am suggesting that such is generally possible or in any way more then a small minority.

    Just saying that "never" is not correct. "Very unusual" would be correct and I would certainly agree with that wording.

    Some of the younger cops upon actually reading the actual law text (have in pamphlet or business card form with you for them) and having it clearly explained and documented are capable of "getting it". Using their cruiser car itself and your bike and putting them side by side and showing how close the clearances are within the width of the lane for a pass within the lane if the cyclist FRAPs and lets car pass him without changing lanes can actually convince some of them that the road lanes really are too narrow to be safely shared side-by-side and the "narrow lane" exception does legitimately apply especially if their cruiser and your bike are actually touching when side by side within the lane width.

    You are correct though that its the minority of cops who will accept such education by a lowly civilian. It's just that I have seen it happen so I must "give credit where credit is due."

    ------------------------------------------

    @ buzzman

    I agree with you that the activist cyclist in question is a hard line ALWAYS take the lane VCer, that believes it is ALWAYS safer to take the lane and it is NEVER safe to edge ride. I've watched most of his helmet cam vids that he has posted and many times I've seen roads where he is riding in the main lane of a road where the legal speed of automobile traffic is substantially greater then his speed and there is a nice wide decent surface condition shoulder edge that would by be fully ride-able by my own judgement and he refuses to use it and insists on always using the main traffic lanes.

    That said, I have also seen other helmet videos posted by him where the shoulder edge was not a safe and effective place to ride and I would have been taking the lane just like he was.

    My own main complaint with the advocate cyclists in question is that he doesn't seem to "get it" that taking the lane is what you do when either the road speed is low enough that you as a cyclist are going fast enough to mix with other road users as an equal or you have to take the lane because of road conditions not what you do just because you can and everyone else be (insert explicit of your choice). Taking the lane of a high speed road when it isn't necessary and there is a decent width and condition shoulder edge to ride on is just being an (insert explicit of your choice) for the sake of being a (again insert). And that is where I think this particular advocate cyclist "fails" in my opinion. I fully support road rights for cyclists and when either road speeds are low enough or conditions make it necessary by all means take the lane. But don't do it just because you want to tick everyone off, life is a two (or more) way street you only assert your rights when it is either necessary or it don't cause other people any significant inconvenience. Going around just pushing your rights for the sake of pushing them and rubbing them in other peoples face when it ain't even necessary is just being a (insert your choice of explicit).

    It's just like some of the *** right groups who go strap the biggest ugliest and most obvious *** they can to their side and march around like that just for the sake of asserting their right to do so. Dude, that's stupid, only go grab a big ugly *** and march around with it if its absolutely necessary because someone actually is coming after you and "brandishing" the big ugly *** might make them leave your home which they broke into in a home invasion scenario and keep you from actually having to shoot them or if you need or even just want to carry a *** for protection then go get a little easily concealed one and get the training and paperwork done for a CWP and then carry it out of sight and only ever take it out if you absolutely must.

    Same common sense goes for "taking the lane" as a cyclist. When road speeds are low and you can keep up fairly well as a cyclist with the cars and mix as an equal, well that is just like having a *** at the *** range, no worries ride "taking the lane" all you want and if someone has a problem with it then its their problem not yours.

    On the other hand if your on a high speed road where you don't have a chance of even coming close to the speed of cars then only take the lane if you must and if there is a decent shoulder edge or bike lane then for goodness sakes use it for the most part. Its just a very basic level of having half of an measure of respect for other road users. Now if you do have to "take the lane" of a high speed road because of road conditions then yes do so but don't do it just to spite everyone else.

    The advocate cyclist in question doesn't seem to "get it" on that point. And I agree with you on that. But from his videos of one of the actual traffic stops I do think that I would also have been taking the lane on that particular section of that road if I had been riding on it. My points of contention with this particular advocate cyclists are not about the exact specifics of the particular traffic stop in question but rather his general attitude I have seen in his other videos I've watched and also some of his posts on his web-site where he specifically goes against one of my main advocacy points, namely that he is anti- good wide shoulder edges as a way of accommodating cyclists needs on high speed highways. Which is usually personally my most preferred method of accommodation on such roads.

  8. #108
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    ...

    @ buzzman



    ...The advocate cyclist in question doesn't seem to "get it" on that point. And I agree with you on that. But from his videos of one of the actual traffic stops I do think that I would also have been taking the lane on that particular section of that road if I had been riding on it. My points of contention with this particular advocate cyclists are not about the exact specifics of the particular traffic stop in question but rather his general attitude I have seen in his other videos I've watched and also some of his posts on his web-site where he specifically goes against one of my main advocacy points, namely that he is anti- good wide shoulder edges as a way of accommodating cyclists needs on high speed highways. Which is usually personally my most preferred method of accommodation on such roads.
    I agree that I might have ridden in a similar road position on said road IF I absolutely had to ride on that road. I'm not a fan of that stretch and use alternatives.

    I also take issue with his "attitude". Once he realized he had a couple of officers ignorant of the law on the hook he stayed with it to prove his point, not to simply get from point A to B.

    I have a copy of all pertinent MA Laws in a document on my smart phone should it be necessary to "educate" a driver or law officer should I ever be stopped but I have never had to use it. Prior to my smartphone I had the laws on a small card in my wallet. I carried it for years and never needed it either. That Eli Damon has had so many confrontations with drivers and LEO's is somewhat telling.

  9. #109
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Yup, I just want to ride my bike safely, effectively, and efficiently wherever I need to go anytime I need to go there using the public roads without being harassed or attacked by either cops or private individuals. I hate getting tickets from ignorant cops and having to go to court to fight them (I refer to this as "being dragged into court") and every time I get pulled over I am really trying and hoping to convince the cop right then and there and not get a ticket written.

    Now on the other hand when it comes to cops that are not ignorant but rather are engaging in knowing deliberate aggression against me or private (or driving for pay) motorists using their vehicles against me as weapons either for intimidation or attack. In those cases I'm a total (insert explicit or explicits of your choice as crude and as many as you desire) and I totally do everything I can (usually not anywhere near as successfully as I would like) and consider it a high privilege to actually get my day in court. So far no criminal charges but I have got a couple civil ones where I've got my day in court.

    So I guess I would myself be considered to have a significant "attitude problem" at times so I can't totally fault him. I'm just more of a "counter punch" philosophy person and try to restrain myself into only going after those who come after me first and I've already given a chance to correct their behavior and they have spurned it.

    It would be preferable of course that we could all just live in peace and no-one would go around trying to "mess with" other people and it wouldn't ever be necessary to "counter-punch" but I don't think that is a possibility with the human species at its current level of development. If you step back and look at the big picture the human species has some really bad habits which I admit I'm by no means immune from myself.



    Basically in answer to CBHI's query as to what exactly we are supposed to do and how we are supposed to respond to "when cops blatantly demand a legal cyclist get off the road and the education route has not worked". I personally have been using a "legal counter-punch ONLY" philosophy. I admit not the most utopian solution but the best option I believe considering that we are dealing with the human species at its current level of societal development. At least for my personality type which I fully admit is not the nicest.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 12-12-13 at 12:32 AM.

  10. #110
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    That Eli Damon has had so many confrontations with drivers and LEO's is somewhat telling.
    What is really telling is that it was the Hadley Police that were constantly confronting Eli Damon. Or maybe you think he has 20 other legal actions in progress against the 20 other towns he rides through?
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  11. #111
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Just so people here understand the attitude of some of the Hadley Police.

    (Hadley Police Officer) Kuc then confiscated Plaintiff’s bicycle and stated that he could pick it up at the Hadley Police Station. After Kuc took his bicycle, Plaintiff walked approximately two miles to the police station, where Kuc returned the bicycle. At the station, Kuc stated that what Plaintiff had done might have been legal but that he did not care about the law, as he considered the manner in which Plaintiff was riding his bicycle on public roads “stupid.”

    Kuc also stated that, if he heard that Plaintiff was riding in the middle of the lane on any road in Hadley, he would make sure Plaintiff was punished.
    Last edited by CB HI; 12-13-13 at 05:43 PM.
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  12. #112
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    What is really telling is that it was the Hadley Police that were constantly confronting Eli Damon. Or maybe you think he has 20 other legal actions in progress against the 20 other towns he rides through?

    I'm not sure whether you're being serious here or not. You are aware (aren't you?) that he has numerous encounters with police officers in several towns in Massachusetts and New Hampshire as well as some really bad encounters with drivers, one of whom slammed him to the ground in one encounter.

    According to his website he has had legal wranglings in not only Hadley but Easthampton and West Springfield- two towns right near Hadley.

    He also details New Hampshire encounters with State Police. Look through his segment on his website called "Sagas" for the litany of encounters with the law.

    He seems to attract and be a perennial "victim" of ignorant law enforcement officers and drivers. I wonder why?

  13. #113
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I'm not sure whether you're being serious here or not. You are aware (aren't you?) that he has numerous encounters with police officers in several towns in Massachusetts and New Hampshire as well as some really bad encounters with drivers, one of whom slammed him to the ground in one encounter.

    According to his website he has had legal wranglings in not only Hadley but Easthampton and West Springfield- two towns right near Hadley.

    He also details New Hampshire encounters with State Police. Look through his segment on his website called "Sagas" for the litany of encounters with the law.

    He seems to attract and be a perennial "victim" of ignorant law enforcement officers and drivers. I wonder why?
    And has any of those officers confiscated his bike and camera, threatened punishment, filed wiretap and disorderly conduct charges? NO

    How many cops flat out say they do not care about the law.

    What other town do you claim Eli Damon is involved in litigation with?

    So it seems some cops in other towns are willing to learn. Too bad Kuc and buddies cannot learn.

    I have had discussions with cops as well, and you have almost been arrested. I guess that makes us bad cyclist as well.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  14. #114
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    It seems too many other cyclist here wish to blame Eli Damon for his legal riding, the same way women once were blamed for wearing short skirts.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  15. #115
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    I think this one has really gotten all the discussion that is humanly possible without resorting to straw man arguments and ad hominem. Closed

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