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Old 12-07-13, 12:23 PM   #26
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any attempt at bicycle lanes and bicycle awareness is better than none. when there are bike lanes of any sort at least this shows motorists that bicycles might be there and that it is legal for them to be there,,its much better nothing, I dont care how bad they are or poorly designed. When they are poorly designed it is usually do to the cost of starting all over again to include bicycles. Ill take them anyway.
I respectfully disagree. Many members of the non-cycling community believe that bikelanes are the ONLY place where bikes are allowed on the road. These quarter-mile stretches of "bikelanes" that pop up around me in NJ, most often just taking over most or all of what used to be a shoulder, send the wrong message. Many motorists have voiced their conviction that bikes belong only in the bikelane (which of course would be unworkable, as far as transportation goes.) According to internet sources, LE officials in many areas feel the same way... as in "you can't ride on this street, as there's no bikelane present; here's your citation." Thankfully, I haven't experienced that yet in my area.

I think that, so long as bikelanes are only sporadically available, often unsafe and frequently ill-planned, they send a confusing message to cyclists, LE, and motorists alike. I want to appreciate bikelanes, and I probably will if they ever become ubiquitous, well-planned, and safe. But, in the meantime, I'm getting tired of explaining to angry motorists or smirking co-workers that bikes are allowed on most roadways, with interstates and some multi-lane freeways being exceptions.
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Old 12-07-13, 02:19 PM   #27
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One solution is Sharrows. These are pretty controversial. I like them. Some motorists, and even some cyclists hate them. I think that this is largely due to a missunderstanding if what they really are. What they are not, is a new fangled set of rules for bikes to take the lane. What they are is just clear signage of the existing law, and put in in situations where the VC says bikes may, and even should, take the lane. This satelite immage is out of date, but the area shown now has Sharrows. http://goo.gl/maps/lhBml This is the same LA/San Diego corridor I made an example of earlier in this thread, about 5-6 mi south. I have been taking the lane here for years before the Sharrow markings were put in. Now I rarely get brush passed when doing it. The immage was taken during an off peak time. On weekends during the summer there are cars lining the shoulder for about two miles, and the only way out of the door zone is to take the lane.

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Old 12-07-13, 02:36 PM   #28
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One solution is Sharrows. These are pretty controversial. I like them. Some motorists, and even some cyclists hate them......... I have been taking the lane here for years before the Sharrow markings. Now I rarely get brushe passed when doing it.

When applied to streets and roads with lower traffic speeds, and to AASHTO standards, I like sharrows as well, since I can move about the lane as needed to avoid certain hazards, plus more of the roadway is swept clean of debris, unlike in the case of many dedicated bike lanes. I agree on the difference sharrow markings can make, since one section of roadway that I commute on, in which the markings were applied, motorists were more patient in their driving habits. When the same section of roadway was repaved, and the sharrow markings were slow in being reapplied, the motorist driving behavior was considerably more agitated by my presence in the roadway, resulting in much closer passes, with some motorists applying full throttle in the passing maneuver process.

Once the sharrow markings were reapplied, motorist driving habits reverted to being that of showing more patience.
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Old 12-07-13, 02:51 PM   #29
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....but the one pedestrian bridge that I saw in Eugene is far more visually aesthetic, especially at night.
We have four bike/ped bridges in town. The DeFazio bridge, over the Willamette River, is a comely suspension bridge that serves no real purpose (there is an adjacent bridge, the Ferry St. Bridge, that has bike/ped paths on both sides).

However, I suspect the one you saw is the only one that does not span the river, the Delta Hwy Bridge. It has pretty red lights, but its beauty ends there. The east end is in a neighborhood with nothing to go to and where no one who rides, which by itself doesn't condemn the bridge to uselessness. It's problem is the other end. Rather than span both the highway and its adjacent high speed frontage road, the morons who designed it chose to land it just short of this high speed roadway. Thus, any users of the bridge must stop at the bottom and wait for traffic to clear before they can proceed to the riverfront bike paths. They were 90% of the way there, but chose to screw it up. This sort of bad planning does bunch up my knickers. This poorly done bridge likely will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 per crossing over the first decade of its existence due to the low level of use.
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Old 12-07-13, 05:00 PM   #30
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We have four bike/ped bridges in town. The DeFazio bridge, over the Willamette River, is a comely suspension bridge that serves no real purpose (there is an adjacent bridge, the Ferry St. Bridge, that has bike/ped paths on both sides).

However, I suspect the one you saw is the only one that does not span the river, the Delta Hwy Bridge. It has pretty red lights, but its beauty ends there. The east end is in a neighborhood with nothing to go to and where no one who rides, which by itself doesn't condemn the bridge to uselessness. It's problem is the other end. Rather than span both the highway and its adjacent high speed frontage road, the morons who designed it chose to land it just short of this high speed roadway. Thus, any users of the bridge must stop at the bottom and wait for traffic to clear before they can proceed to the riverfront bike paths. They were 90% of the way there, but chose to screw it up. This sort of bad planning does bunch up my knickers. This poorly done bridge likely will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 per crossing over the first decade of its existence due to the low level of use.
If the crossing that you speak of is the one that has one lane in each direction and a very large concrete island place in the middle of the road, many of our local cyclists and peds would give their eye teeth to have something so similar, especially when our city has several 3 lane one way arterials, with a posted speed limit closely matching that particular road, cutting through the heart of our residential areas... the game of Frogger should come to mind.

Looking at the map, the bridge in question cuts a considerable distance of travel to cross the highway to get to the trails on the other side. I'm still envious on what your locale does spend in time, energy, and money on ped and cycling infrastructure.

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Old 12-07-13, 10:15 PM   #31
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Here's another dandy job by our local traffic engineers:https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cobur...e,+Oregon&z=19


This is one of our typically lousy routes back into town. (It also happens to be the way into Eugene from the Willamette Valley Scenic Bikeway's southern terminus). As you roll along southbound in a bike lane next to high speed traffic (see the bike lane thermoplastic emblem at the top of the image), the bike lane suddenly and without warning disappears so that a roadway that connects a few dozen houses, a gravel quarry and a church can enter from the right side without having to stop at a stop sign. Here's the view of the entering traffic (bike lane that ends is on your left, just past that island).https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Cobur...12,149.35,,0,0

I'm all in favor of having the bike lane. However, by "disappearing" it at a junction that would have worked just fine by giving a stop sign to the entering traffic, the bike lane creates more danger than anything. A cyclist has to either take the lane as he/she approaches this mess and then merge through the new lane or look over his/her right shoulder for an opening in the traffic that is coming in from the right.

Only a cyclist-hating car-addict could have designed this one. It is quite literally a bike lane to nowhere.
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Old 12-07-13, 10:27 PM   #32
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And folks get mad a me for characterizing bike lanes as "separate but not equal".
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Old 12-07-13, 10:52 PM   #33
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Only a cyclist-hating car-addict could have designed this one.....

......or a road engineer not versed in the needs of cyclists.....still though, there's a good line of sight to see rear approaching traffic to make a safe crossing, similar to a freeway on ramp, but with lower traffic speed.

I have a similar bike lane/road design on my commute, but the on ramp is far sharper and the rear approaching line of sight is mostly blocked by a large retaining wall, making it dicey to cross at times since the traffic is accelerating up a posted speed limit 10 mph faster than on the road that you have shown.
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Old 12-09-13, 12:25 AM   #34
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I respectfully disagree. Many members of the non-cycling community believe that bikelanes are the ONLY place where bikes are allowed on the road. These quarter-mile stretches of "bikelanes" that pop up around me in NJ, most often just taking over most or all of what used to be a shoulder, send the wrong message. Many motorists have voiced their conviction that bikes belong only in the bikelane (which of course would be unworkable, as far as transportation goes.) According to internet sources, LE officials in many areas feel the same way... as in "you can't ride on this street, as there's no bikelane present; here's your citation." Thankfully, I haven't experienced that yet in my area.

I think that, so long as bikelanes are only sporadically available, often unsafe and frequently ill-planned, they send a confusing message to cyclists, LE, and motorists alike. I want to appreciate bikelanes, and I probably will if they ever become ubiquitous, well-planned, and safe. But, in the meantime, I'm getting tired of explaining to angry motorists or smirking co-workers that bikes are allowed on most roadways, with interstates and some multi-lane freeways being exceptions.
You mean when people see a 2 mile stretch of bike lane then it ends, means all bicycles are confined to that 2 miles lmao,,that is silly. People see the 2 mile stretch and think, that would be a good idea to go farther with those kind of lanes lol.

I ride a lot, the more people see bike lanes, and or designated bicycle routes, the better. We are still a very small group in the USA.

I ride to this trendy detroit suburb almost daily. They are about to ban bicycling on the sidewalks in the downtown area. I am fine with it,,but then they need to put signs all over telling the motorists there are many bicycles and they will be allowed in the streets. it is the only answer, there is no room for bike lanes.

Signs and some "token" bike lanes are the only answer, to let motorists know they must mingle with bicycles. To just say we are allowed anywhere we want without any sign of that is ludicrous.
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Old 12-09-13, 12:46 AM   #35
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That is a one block street next to the new University of Hawaii Medical Research Center. There are NO cyclist that use that street. Only research staff and delivery trucks use it, plus a couple of cops that like to park under that large shade tree in the top left.
Used to park down there at the park to ride Tantalus. Back then only garbage trucks on crap roads. Didn't need infrastructure.

AFA Nimitz - seems like what I recall was the sidewalk was the "bike lane". Worse though is they closed access through the CINC's boathouse in Aiea after 911 so the PH bike path dead ends at Aloha Stadium.

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Old 12-09-13, 01:40 AM   #36
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Used to park down there at the park to ride Tantalus. Back then only garbage trucks on crap roads. Didn't need infrastructure.

AFA Nimitz - seems like what I recall was the sidewalk was the "bike lane". Worse though is they closed access through the CINC's boathouse in Aiea after 911 so the PH bike path dead ends at Aloha Stadium.

scott s.
The Admiral and boathouse unit wanted to close the gate long before 9-11. 9-11 just gave them the excuse they could sell. Several years before, they removed the drinking fountain to keep the runners from stopping.

But closing the gates does have the benefit of eliminating formation and large group running that use to occur.
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Old 12-09-13, 09:40 AM   #37
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One solution is Sharrows. These are pretty controversial. I like them. Some motorists, and even some cyclists hate them. I think that this is largely due to a missunderstanding if what they really are. What they are not, is a new fangled set of rules for bikes to take the lane. What they are is just clear signage of the existing law, and put in in situations where the VC says bikes may, and even should, take the lane. This satelite immage is out of date, but the area shown now has Sharrows. http://goo.gl/maps/lhBml This is the same LA/San Diego corridor I made an example of earlier in this thread, about 5-6 mi south. I have been taking the lane here for years before the Sharrow markings were put in. Now I rarely get brush passed when doing it. The immage was taken during an off peak time. On weekends during the summer there are cars lining the shoulder for about two miles, and the only way out of the door zone is to take the lane.
I will respectfully disagree on sharrows, to me the signage is not clear...... most drivers don't know what the heck a sharrow is. It is not misunderstanding the law and what they are not, it us just that as a stand alone graphic is is simply not clear. Bike lanes (whether sub standard or not) are clear. they clearly establish that bicyles part of the mix of street traffic. I understand the concerns about people thinking that you can only be in the bike lane...(and have similar concerns for segragated bike facilities) but there is no ambiguity about bike lanes.....
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Old 12-09-13, 10:20 AM   #38
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I Bike lanes (whether sub standard or not) are clear. they clearly establish that bicyles part of the mix of street traffic. I understand the concerns about people thinking that you can only be in the bike lane...(and have similar concerns for segragated bike facilities) but there is no ambiguity about bike lanes.....
You're right that the lanes are unambiguous, but you can't have it both ways, They either clearly establish that bicycles are part of the traffic mix, or they reinforce the notion that they're not, and bicycles belong ONLY where segregated facilities exist (or on the sidewalk).

I don't have a proven answer based on polling drivers or anything, but I lean to the latter, and am concerned about motorists feeling that since roads are segregated there must be a reason, and bicycles shouldn't be where they don't belong. It also saddens me that so many (mostly new) cyclists also believe in segregation.

IMO, sharrows are a decent reminder, but what's rally needed is a serious public education about road sharing. PSA spots and billboards making it clear that sharing roads safely is public policy (and the law), along with some sort of campaign focusing on the most common avoidable causes of accidents.

If bicycle advocacy puts all it's eggs in the bike lane basket, that's what we'll get, and eventually all that we'll have.
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Old 12-09-13, 10:26 AM   #39
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I will respectfully disagree on sharrows, to me the signage is not clear...... most drivers don't know what the heck a sharrow is. It is not misunderstanding the law and what they are not, it us just that as a stand alone graphic is is simply not clear. Bike lanes (whether sub standard or not) are clear. they clearly establish that bicyles part of the mix of street traffic. I understand the concerns about people thinking that you can only be in the bike lane...(and have similar concerns for segragated bike facilities) but there is no ambiguity about bike lanes.....
Around here, sharrow lanes are accompanied by signs in English saying "BIKES MAY USE FULL LANE". I believe this is in keeping with the AASHTO standard that Dynodonn mentioned earlier. I have worked with local agencies on infrastructure permits when working for a construction company, and know that doing anything involving "improvements", including striping, is not a simple process.

Also, Coast Highway through the small town of Leucada is somewhere I have always taken the lane. There is no choice. Before the sharrows getting brushed close by cars squeezing by was the rule. In the last year or so since the sharrows went in, that has not happened to me once.

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Old 12-09-13, 02:20 PM   #40
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You're right that the lanes are unambiguous, but you can't have it both ways, They either clearly establish that bicycles are part of the traffic mix, or they reinforce the notion that they're not, and bicycles belong ONLY where segregated facilities exist (or on the sidewalk).

I don't have a proven answer based on polling drivers or anything, but I lean to the latter, and am concerned about motorists feeling that since roads are segregated there must be a reason, and bicycles shouldn't be where they don't belong. It also saddens me that so many (mostly new) cyclists also believe in segregation.

IMO, sharrows are a decent reminder, but what's rally needed is a serious public education about road sharing. PSA spots and billboards making it clear that sharing roads safely is public policy (and the law), along with some sort of campaign focusing on the most common avoidable causes of accidents.

If bicycle advocacy puts all it's eggs in the bike lane basket, that's what we'll get, and eventually all that we'll have.
some of this in definition.....I do not consider bike lane as segregated infrastructure. To me, segregated infrastructure has a physical barrior between bike and vehicle traffic. I consider a bike lane not any different than a left or right hand turn lane.....an area for a specific road purpose, but does not restrict use of the rest of the road.

To me a painted bike lane is clear statement that bike belong on the road and physical segragated facilities say bike don't belong on the road. I would say in general we are in overall agreement

Sharrow seem to have potential with sufficient marketing and eduation, but imho they are not intuitive.
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Old 12-09-13, 07:42 PM   #41
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some of this in definition.....I do not consider bike lane as segregated infrastructure. To me, segregated infrastructure has a physical barrior between bike and vehicle traffic. I consider a bike lane not any different than a left or right hand turn lane.....an area for a specific road purpose, but does not restrict use of the rest of the road.

To me a painted bike lane is clear statement that bike belong on the road and physical segragated facilities say bike don't belong on the road. I would say in general we are in overall agreement

Sharrow seem to have potential with sufficient marketing and eduation, but imho they are not intuitive.
You don't consider bike lanes to be segregation? If you were confined to the back of the bus or separate drinking fountains would that be considered inclusive to you?

When well-implemented (adequately wide, not overly crowned, no storm drain issues, kept clear of debris, no door-zone hazards, proper intersection treatment to reduce right-hook/left-cross issues) I rather like bike lanes. However, they do segregate me to a small portion of the roadway, particularly in mandatory-use states such as yours and mine.
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Old 12-09-13, 08:04 PM   #42
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You don't consider bike lanes to be segregation? If you were confined to the back of the bus or separate drinking fountains would that be considered inclusive to you?

When well-implemented (adequately wide, not overly crowned, no storm drain issues, kept clear of debris, no door-zone hazards, proper intersection treatment to reduce right-hook/left-cross issues) I rather like bike lanes. However, they do segregate me to a small portion of the roadway, particularly in mandatory-use states such as yours and mine.
Nope....and it is not even comparable to radial segregation....so Let's leave that hot potato alone please.... I don't want to go to P&R

A painted bike lane let's me use the lane and gives me the benefit of it being clear to cars that I belong on the street. I find that cars give me more room But I am free to use the full road if there is junk in the bike lane/or it is blocked or to cross over multiple lanes and use a left turn lane at a light. I could not do that with physically separated bike infrastructure.

are bike lanes perfect...no but a well implemented one like you have noted is pretty close to as good as it gets.
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Old 12-09-13, 08:13 PM   #43
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Nope....and it is not even comparable to radial segregation....so Let's leave that hot potato alone please.... I don't want to go to P&R

A painted bike lane let's me use the lane and gives me the benefit of it being clear to cars that I belong on the street. I find that cars give me more room But I am free to use the full road if there is junk in the bike lane/or it is blocked or to cross over multiple lanes and use a left turn lane at a light. I could not do that with physically separated bike infrastructure.

are bike lanes perfect...no but a well implemented one like you have noted is pretty close to as good as it gets.
A few years back (it may have been changed by now), bike lanes in CA were explicitly defined as NOT part of the roadway, so a painted bike lane says that you don't belong on the street. It confines you unless very specific criteria are met, most of which are completely unknown to motorists (and most cyclists). Heck, most motorists don't even know the difference between a bike lane and a shoulder, which causes a lot of problems.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. At least we do have the common ground of wanting what bike lanes that do get put in to be done well.
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Old 12-10-13, 12:40 AM   #44
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I have had motorist testify and their lawyers claim I should have been in the bike lane. The bike lanes they speak of have been on roads with no paint on the right or a 1 foot shoulder filled with potholes, glass and gravel.

Their idea of a bike lane (right side):


As a reminder, an example of how well some cyclists understand bike lane and sharrow markings:

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Old 12-10-13, 02:55 AM   #45
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CB HI, that's a slow turnout lane and there are no bike lanes, that is a standard SHOULDER.

If that is the implication of others, you do have a battle.
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Old 12-10-13, 04:11 AM   #46
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CB HI, that's a slow turnout lane and there are no bike lanes, that is a standard SHOULDER.

If that is the implication of others, you do have a battle.
Look at the right side (downhill part) one lane part of the road - that is the shoulder they were calling a bike lane.
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Old 12-10-13, 09:21 AM   #47
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Look at the right side (downhill part) one lane part of the road - that is the shoulder they were calling a bike lane.
CB.....to be clear that is NOT a designated bike lane, but what a motorist/lawyer combo were claiming was a bike lane? Correct or did I miss it?
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Old 12-10-13, 10:16 AM   #48
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CB.....to be clear that is NOT a designated bike lane, but what a motorist/lawyer combo were claiming was a bike lane? Correct or did I miss it?
I believe that is what CB meant. Also, according to AASHTO standards, and something I only learned after taking a NAB safety class, the white stripe separating a shoulder is 4" wide. Bike lanes get a 6" stripe.
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Old 12-10-13, 10:30 AM   #49
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I have had motorist testify and their lawyers claim I should have been in the bike lane. The bike lanes they speak of have been on roads with no paint on the right or a 1 foot shoulder filled with potholes, glass and gravel.

Their idea of a bike lane (right side):


As a reminder, an example of how well some cyclists understand bike lane and sharrow markings:

Interesting the the Motorcyclist is the one who posted this considering it shows said biker violating several laws. The cyclist may have been getting hotter than need be as well. In road rage there is rarely one totally innocent party.
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Old 12-10-13, 10:38 PM   #50
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CB.....to be clear that is NOT a designated bike lane, but what a motorist/lawyer combo were claiming was a bike lane? Correct or did I miss it?
Correct. The situation clearly demonstrates the wrong headed idea motorists have of bike lanes and what a bike lane is.
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