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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Here's the Google street view I image I posted in the SoCal forum. It looks to me like they narrowed a standard traffic lane to fit a bike lane. The collision happened to the right of median in the picture where most cars are going to move over to avoid clipping the raised curb on the median.
    That doesn't change the underlying facts. It might explain, but shouldn't excuse anything. I assume that California road law is the same as in New York, where the lead vehicle has the right of way, and the burden is on the passing vehicle. If the road is too narrow, the obligation to wait until it's safe to pass rests on the passing vehicle.
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  2. #27
    RIP Sonny RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    That doesn't change the underlying facts. It might explain, but shouldn't excuse anything. I assume that California road law is the same as in New York, where the lead vehicle has the right of way, and the burden is on the passing vehicle. If the road is too narrow, the obligation to wait until it's safe to pass rests on the passing vehicle.
    We do indeed have that law.

  3. #28
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walrus1 View Post
    If the video footage exonerates or lessens the blame it will magically appear. Otherwise it's amazing how often the police lose those pesky little things.
    Yes amazing; any examples of bicycling related video lost by police that you can reference?

  4. #29
    RIP Sonny RaleighSport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Yes amazing; any examples of bicycling related video lost by police that you can reference?
    Not exactly bicycling related, but gives some perspective on the matter. http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/12/wh...eos-go-missing

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    That doesn't change the underlying facts.
    I'm not excusing anything, just pointing out that poor traffic design was probably a huge factor. I hope the bike advocacy groups in the area didn't advocate for such a sub-standard bike lane.

  6. #31
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Here's the Google street view I image I posted in the SoCal forum. It looks to me like they narrowed a standard traffic lane to fit a bike lane. The collision happened to the right of median in the picture where most cars are going to move over to avoid clipping the raised curb on the median.

    I saw that, when I looked at the road on Google. There is a portion of one road near my house, that has those raised medians, with no bike lane. So I 'take the lane'. The difference between the road near my house, and Mulholland Highway is 20mph. The road near my house has a 25mph speed limit, probably because it goes through a residential community.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
    I assume there is video from the police cruiser. Assuming it isn't "lost somehow."
    LA County sheriff patrol units are not equipped with dash cam video.

  8. #33
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    At this point we are almost entirely ignorant of the proximate cause or causes of this tragedy.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Yes amazing; any examples of bicycling related video lost by police that you can reference?
    It is a well documented FACT that police edit, lose, delete, and other wise misplace video and audio from their patrol cars, motorcycles and body worn recorders.

  10. #35
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    From someone that knew the rider.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
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  12. #37
    Senior Member walrus1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    Even more of a reason, to make a backup copy.
    Only helps if you can get your hands on the dash cam footage immediately after the incident. But normally yes back up copies are a very good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikon Rep View Post
    LA County sheriff patrol units are not equipped with dash cam video.
    Shocking. The NYPD has fought tooth and nail to keep cams out of their cruisers or so I'm told.

  13. #38
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    What is bizarre about the VC Star story is that at 8.22 they headlined the story "Cyclist fatally struck by sheriff's car ID'd", but at 9.19 the cyclist died after hitting hitting patrol vehicle.

    Curious inversion, eh?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikon Rep View Post
    It is a well documented FACT that police edit, lose, delete, and other wise misplace video and audio from their patrol cars, motorcycles and body worn recorders.
    If,as originally reported, the cyclist was struck from behind by the front of the police car, then the physical evidence will work against the driver. The video could only help exonerate him by showing something like the cyclist swerving, or something else supporting that the accident was unavoidable. I don't know how things working CA, but in many jurisdictions any loss or damage of the dash cam video would only increase suspicion of a cover up.

    I'm not naive enough to believe all cops are honest, (keeps me off jury duty in criminal cases) but I do prefer to reserve judgement until the evidence is in and I've heard the story (if I ever do).
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  15. #40
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    If,as originally reported, the cyclist was struck from behind by the front of the police car, then the physical evidence will work against the driver. The video could only help exonerate him by showing something like the cyclist swerving, or something else supporting that the accident was unavoidable. I don't know how things working CA, but in many jurisdictions any loss or damage of the dash cam video would only increase suspicion of a cover up.

    I'm not naive enough to believe all cops are honest, (keeps me off jury duty in criminal cases) but I do prefer to reserve judgement until the evidence is in and I've heard the story (if I ever do).
    Decades ago I was out for an evening ride (mid summer) after traffic going the 2 miles home was horrible. I ate dinner and then started my ride. Traffic was still heavy, but livable, until the road went from 1 lane to 2 and it was like being caught in a LeMans start.

    I bailed. I learned the next day that there was a fatality accident on the Ventura Freeway involving a CHP officer. They closed the whole freeway during rush hour.

    If the CHP has any jurisdiction they will investigate.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  16. #41
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikon Rep View Post
    It is a well documented FACT that police edit, lose, delete, and other wise misplace video and audio from their patrol cars, motorcycles and body worn recorders.
    Really, a well documented FACT because you say so? Any reference for your well documented FACT other than you read it on the Internet somewhere?

  17. #42
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
    At this point we are almost entirely ignorant of the proximate cause or causes of this tragedy.
    None of it necessary for the firebrands and pitchfork mobs of the A&S lynch mobs. Being entirely ignorant of cause has never been a problem for the judge and jury crowd.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Really, a well documented FACT because you say so? Any reference for your well documented FACT other than you read it on the Internet somewhere?
    So you are going to say it just doesn't happen as there is not extensive documentation to prove it... How much documentation do you need? One instance, 12 or 100, with witnesses signing affidavits signifying the event?

    The problem is that if this sort of thing IS happening.... no doubt the evidence is being well hidden to protect those who desire to hide this sort of evidence...

    This blog is one case of a situation in which the police at first denied video evidence (in their own system) then refused to view it. http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...u-are-a-biker/

    RaleighSport gave a link that also discusses video evidence gone missing... including the somewhat classic case of 7 cars that all somehow had non-functioning video recorders.

    TV reporter Andrea McCarren and a cameraman were pulled over by seven police cruisers as they followed a county official for a story on the misuse of public funds. McCarren later claimed in a lawsuit that she was abused during the stop, resulting in a torn rotator cuff and dislocated shoulder. Prince George's County officials never gave McCarren's attorneys dash cam video of the incident. Their excuse? They said all seven dashboard cameras were malfunctioning on the day McCarren was pulled over.
    Amazing coincidence eh?

    Bottom line is you are asking for hard evidence for situation that people are bending over backwards to hide.

  19. #44
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Here's the Google street view I image I posted in the SoCal forum. It looks to me like they narrowed a standard traffic lane to fit a bike lane. The collision happened to the right of median in the picture where most cars are going to move over to avoid clipping the raised curb on the median.

    To the left is a Major shopping center.

    There is plenty of space. If I remember right this used to be 2 lanes each way. Intentional narrowing.

    BTW this section of Mulholland Hwy runs North/South.

    The road it runs into is Mulholland Drive, also pretty near the 22000 block. In a lot of ways Mulholland Drive makes more sense as there are some sweeping turns where it would take far less inattention to create a collision. Also Google Maps puts 22000 Mulholland Drive at the intersection with Topanga. That is nearly a T intersection. There is a go straight option but over 95% of traffic turns one way or the other. That section has a downhill turn and has a pretty decent potential for confusion.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  20. #45
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    I didn't notice that ILTB claimed:

    "It is a well documented FACT that police edit, lose, delete, and other wise misplace video and audio from their patrol cars, motorcycles and body worn recorders."

    He asked for that documentation since its well documented it should be easily available, else its not well documented.


    I do agree that in some cases inconvenient evidence has gone missing, but its rare in my opinion. Also, in the MD crash case, the police denied the existence of the tape, and it was subsequently found during the discovery process, which is quite different than destroying or tampering with evidence.
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  21. #46
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    There are many instances of police losing or accidentally erasing tapes. So many that few people are unaware that this is significant problem. Calling for cites and studies of that which is commonly known seems more a rhetorical device than an actual quest for information.

    And is trying to get away with claiming evidence does not exist really all that different from destroying it? The end goal is the same and that's really what's at issue.

  22. #47
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    Looking at the damage, there was clearly a substantial speed differential between the cyclist and his killer. Considering the narrow passage between the road furniture and the substandardly narrow bike lane and the fact that the crash occurred immediately prior to a signalized T-intersection (the reason for the road furniture: traffic calming), it's pretty hard to not think this is gross negligence on the part of the deputy.

    Unfortunately, the LA Sheriff's department does not have video in their units. Even worse, they are apparently conducting the investigation themselves rather than bringing in the CHP, which creates a clear conflict of interest. Their track record speaks for itself, with eighteen of them indicted today. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/09...investigation/

    I suspect we will never know what actually happened, although we will get a fully spun account from the killer's colleagues that will be the official accounting until the victim's family's lawyers get busy.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post

    I suspect we will never know what actually happened, although we will get a fully spun account from the killer's colleagues that will be the official accounting until the victim's family's lawyers get busy.
    Without pointing fingers from 3,000 miles away, this may be a case where interested parties - family and friends of the victim - might be able to use the media to advantage and press for an unbiased investigation by CHP or the DAs office. A poor or insider investigation benefits nobody because whatever the outcome, it'll be tainted.

    It doesn't take too much media noise to cause elected officials to distance themselves by ordering "clean" investigations, and in many cases this is the ONLY way they intercede and move authority to unbiased agencies.

    Of course, there'll be some people who say cops are cops, and not even accept a CHP report - and they might be right - but at least it'll be a step in the right direction.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Without pointing fingers from 3,000 miles away, this may be a case where interested parties - family and friends of the victim - might be able to use the media to advantage and press for an unbiased investigation by CHP or the DAs office. A poor or insider investigation benefits nobody because whatever the outcome, it'll be tainted.

    It doesn't take too much media noise to cause elected officials to distance themselves by ordering "clean" investigations, and in many cases this is the ONLY way they intercede and move authority to unbiased agencies.

    Of course, there'll be some people who say cops are cops, and not even accept a CHP report - and they might be right - but at least it'll be a step in the right direction.
    It may be too late for that. There were only sheriff's deputies on the scene after the crash, so the evidence is already under their control. Perhaps their reputation is undeserved and the deputies on the scene will do/have done a stand-up job, but it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    I'm somewhat surprised there isn't a protocol in place for this sort of thing that mandates having a different agency handle an investigation when an officer is involved in a death, particularly when the initial evidence indicates the officer is at fault. The lack of such a protocol causes me concern. Well-run departments don't fear outside scrutiny, but corrupt ones do.

  25. #50
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    I hate stories like this.

    The San Francisco Chronicle identified him as a former chief operating officer of Napster.
    http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/articl...ar-5048581.php

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