Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

View Poll Results: If you ride helmetless: how much would you charge to pledge to not use insurance?

Voters
8. You may not vote on this poll
  • nothing: I live by my individuality and don't want my choices affecting others

    2 25.00%
  • $100/month

    0 0%
  • $300/month

    0 0%
  • $500/month

    0 0%
  • I would never take this deal (respond to thread with reasoning)

    6 75.00%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 57
  1. #26
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    5,068
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I agree with the OP. I always wear a bike helmet.

  2. #27
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    My Bikes
    Nashbar Road
    Posts
    6,301
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ...
    Now, you suggest the probabilities are small. If they are small to you, why would you would demand a million dollars to keep that potential cost from society? You have the right to put this potential cost burden on society and you would demand such a high price to give up that right? Are your principles so malleable?
    High price on general principle. A malleable principle would be cheap, strong valued principles are expensive. You know, the rugged individualist thing ...

  3. #28
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    ...

    I mention these posts because I do not race, and am therefore subsidizing through my health insurance your increased health costs from racing. Thank you for mitigating these costs from $100k to $4k, but they would be zero to me if you pledged to not use insurance for your intentional race injuries. It is a simple matter of principle (and principal).
    Yes, you are. I freely admit that and make no claim my racing doesn't affect other people. It is within the rules; it is also selfish of me. The difference is: I am not making the claim that my choice to race affects me alone. I am not going to try to make up rational offsets to rationalize my actions by trying to claim some tradeoff that may or may not exist. I like to race, I do it selfishly, and it is within my rights.

    And it is within your rights not to wear a helmet if you don't want to. Unless you are one of the poor saps under a MHL. But don't pretend you are doing this out of some higher purpose or some ultimate tradeoff or justification that makes the scales balance. You are being selfish when you make that choice. It is within the rules (for most people), and it is selfish.

    We do all sorts of things that are selfish and not in the best interests of other people. Most people drive too fast, including me. Most cyclists are put in a position, at some point or another, to waste another person's time by taking the lane. It's not a lot but it adds up. The correct response is not to try to justify a selfish act with some self-justifying tradeoff, but to respond to attempts to curtail your rights by pointing out that this is what you do, others do things you don't like, and dealing with it is part of being in a society.

    The point in all of this is we are not outside society. We are not even rightly called a minority that should be endowed by rights. We are an interest group with selfish interests. When we ride in the lane in front of a car forcing her from 40mph down to 15, we are being selfish. When we forgo a helmet and then incur the cost of head trauma with insurance, we are being selfish. We are part of society. We ride the same roads that all our neighbors helped pay to build. We are protected by those same cops who we love to hate on because those cops ensure that nobody simply run us down from behind. Step out from this curtain of righteousness for a bit and realize we are simply one interest group amongst many, and there are other stakeholders other than just cyclists when it comes to helmet laws and the like.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  4. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    New Rochelle, NY
    My Bikes
    too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
    Posts
    21,567
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ^^^
    I am asking if you are willing to sever your choice to wear or not wear a helmet from my healthcare costs. I am not asking for a policy position regarding helmet use! If you are satisfied with your risk tradeoff, will you make the pledge so I am not affected by the accuracy of your calculation?
    It's a fool's question. Not saying you're a fool, but it's still a fool's question. 100% of the population engages in various actions that drive up health costs. Some overeat, others drive carelessly, some engage in dangerous activities like mountain climbing, contact sports. How do you compute the impact of a driver who chooses drive whan it's not absolutely necessary in a snow storm?.

    So I'll turn this question around and ask how you select those people who should take your nonsensical pledge.

    OTOH, I scuba dive, and pay out of pocket for dive accident insurance, so if I have a dive accident I don't pay out of pocket, nor do your costs go up. If it were offered at a price reflecing the risk I'd gladly pay separately for bicycle accident insurance.

    If it helps you figure the impact, consider life insurance actuaries look at bicycling. I carried a decently large life ins. policy because of my business. I qualified for the lowest preferred rate. To qualify for this, I not only had to be in the upper percentiles health wise, they also had lifestyle questions. Factored were things like how often I flew commercially, (private aircraft was banned for 3 years) what sports I participated in, and a ling laundry list of similar questions. Bicycling wasn't factored (no helmet question either), but scuba diving was, and I needed to get an opinion and special exemption, based on frequency of dives (no commercial, no technical diving). I would have had to limit dives for a few years, but I scored high enough on other risk factors that they waived the restriction.

    The plain truth is that active bicyclists, are a much lower drain on healthcare costs than the general population
    , EVEN IF THEY RIDE WITHOUT A HELMET. So before we discuss a pay out of pocket pledge, maybe we should discuss a serious discount, since we're already paying more than our fair share.

    BTW- don't ask for more details or explanation, I've asaid all I need to say on the subject.
    FB
    Chain-L site

    An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

    “Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

    “One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

  5. #30
    Randomhead
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    12,653
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    my experience with hitting my head and requiring an ER visit for stitches is that they will insist on keeping you overnight for observation. And for good reason. So you are talking a hefty bill, possibly $30k in the U.S. Of course, this might still be called for if you wear a helmet and are knocked out. But stitches are incredibly expensive too, just saw an article saying that they can cost $800 a stitch. You probably get a quantity discount in cases like mine, 26 stitches at $800 apiece is probably more than they would have the guts to charge.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do people seriously have trouble with the concept of separating out costs?

    To put a cost on forgoing a helmet does not mean I must simultaneously price slipping in the shower, driving, cycling in general, racing, walking up stairs, diet, *** ownership, exercise, and everything else that affects society in this world!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  7. #32
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    my experience with hitting my head and requiring an ER visit for stitches is that they will insist on keeping you overnight for observation. And for good reason. So you are talking a hefty bill, possibly $30k in the U.S. Of course, this might still be called for if you wear a helmet and are knocked out. But stitches are incredibly expensive too, just saw an article saying that they can cost $800 a stitch. You probably get a quantity discount in cases like mine, 26 stitches at $800 apiece is probably more than they would have the guts to charge.
    Exactly!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  8. #33
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    It's a fool's question. Not saying you're a fool, but it's still a fool's question. ...
    Of course it is a fool's question. It's a thought experiment. But just because I am examining the cost of forgoing a helmet doesn't mean I have to simultaneously examine all other costs in the world just to be, I dunno, fair or something.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  9. #34
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    High price on general principle. A malleable principle would be cheap, strong valued principles are expensive. You know, the rugged individualist thing ...
    So, your "strong principle" is you take what you can from who you can because the rules don't say you can't. Got it. Though I always thought a "strong principle" was something you do even when the rules technically say you can get away with it...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  10. #35
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Central NY
    My Bikes
    Felt Rejected
    Posts
    6,949
    Mentioned
    113 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I didn't stick my nose in pro or con on helmets, as I wear one and don't care what others do. If helmets are legally required, then the law should be rigorously enforced. Much like cell phone and texting bans should be rigorously enforced.

    But Brian, you cannot conduct a "thought experiment" without:
    1) allowing potentially parallel analogies to be explored.
    2) being open to other thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man in Black
    Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

  11. #36
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,827
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    I agree with the OP. I always wear a bike helmet.
    Do you ever ride through a park, or take a low key ride near your home?

  12. #37
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,827
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Do people seriously have trouble with the concept of separating out costs?

    To put a cost on forgoing a helmet does not mean I must simultaneously price slipping in the shower, driving, cycling in general, racing, walking up stairs, diet, *** ownership, exercise, and everything else that affects society in this world!
    Well yeah it does... as you are trying to itemize one risk, while ignoring all the others.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I didn't stick my nose in pro or con on helmets, as I wear one and don't care what others do. If helmets are legally required, then the law should be rigorously enforced. Much like cell phone and texting bans should be rigorously enforced.

    But Brian, you cannot conduct a "thought experiment" without:
    1) allowing potentially parallel analogies to be explored.
    2) being open to other thoughts.
    First, whether you wear a helmet or not (what alliance you adhere to) is not my business. I am not here to pick sides.

    Usually the "parallel analogies" are more of a I-dontwanna-look-at-this-why-not-look-at-that-instead variety. I have not seen one parallel analogy which seek to answer the question I am exploring; only cries about relative magnitudes and attempts to justify not exploring what I'm looking to explore.

    Also, I can certainly choose not to be open to other thoughts if those thoughts are not compelling to me. It is an exploration. To open another thought, one must make a compelling argument. There have been some here, but in general the ones making the most noise are the ones trying to get me to look elsewhere. Such as bathrooms, driving, skiing, swimming, diet, etc. I am not interested in the costs of any of those things. I am interested in the costs of not wearing a helmet. I think I've caused some people to think a bit, even if these people are probably not the loudest of the bunch.

    Most of the hue and cry has been people trying to make me NOT explore this territory; the ones who are a little afraid of what there is to find, I suppose. The problem with politics (and this is what the helmet debate amounts to), is it forces people to choose sides and state positions. Half of the replies to my posts have been mere position statements, like you'd find in politics with a press release. You've even fallen into this trap by preemptively declaring your "side". And then after that, it forces each word to be metered, each question asked and each question answered, to be carefully vetted to ensure it doesn't "weaken" their side and inadvertently provide "fodder" for the "other side".

    I don't care very much about politics. Like those who refuse the principled stand to allow actions to go with rhetoric, I am selfish in that way. I don't really care if my arguments are used for a pro or con side in the great helmet debates. My personal belief is that these things work themselves out in time, and the fastest way to get to good policy is not by tricky politics and repetitious policy position statements, but simply quantifying rhetoric and letting the pieces fall where they may.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-11-13 at 05:57 PM.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  14. #39
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Well yeah it does... as you are trying to itemize one risk, while ignoring all the others.
    Really? If I want to ask the price of a candy bar (remember when the corner store didn't exactly list these on the box?), I have to make the cashier list all the prices in the store? I am looking for cost, not value. You don't need the price of everything just to determine cost. You need the cost of everything to determine value. But I am after cost; the value calculation can come later once costs have been established.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  15. #40
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Central NY
    My Bikes
    Felt Rejected
    Posts
    6,949
    Mentioned
    113 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post

    And it is within your rights not to wear a helmet if you don't want to. Unless you are one of the poor saps under a MHL. But don't pretend you are doing this out of some higher purpose or some ultimate tradeoff or justification that makes the scales balance. You are being selfish when you make that choice. It is within the rules (for most people), and it is selfish.
    I stated my position only as this response from you implied that I had already taken one. Additionally, there can never be any discussion without people taking positions. Rhetorical debate would pointless if no side took a position, or simply argued against themselves.

    You are trying to make some moral argument and to put an obligation on people who make a lifestyle choice to ride without helmets. We have no universal morals in this country, nor should we. We have laws. If the law allows a behavior, then no defense of it is needed, nor should people be discriminated against for legal behavior. If insurance could disqualify people for not wearing helmets, don't you think they would? If the losses are significant, wouldn't they lobby for a law to require helmets, and therefore get themselves grounds to disallow unhelmeted head injuries?
    Quote Originally Posted by Man in Black
    Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

  16. #41
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,827
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Really? If I want to ask the price of a candy bar (remember when the corner store didn't exactly list these on the box?), I have to make the cashier list all the prices in the store? I am looking for cost, not value. You don't need the price of everything just to determine cost. You need the cost of everything to determine value. But I am after cost; the value calculation can come later once costs have been established.
    But you ask for a cost while giving nothing to compare against... So my GUESS is $10. I have no idea what that buys me, so why should I start at 100 or 300 or 500 dollars.

    The candy bar has an inherent value... the price is what the market is willing to pay, compared to other similar and dissimilar products. In a highly inflated economy (such as the sudden shortage of candy bars) the price will go up.

    I have no "inherent value" for what you propose. What is the price of wind in my hair?

  17. #42
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    ... and to put an obligation on people who make a lifestyle choice to ride without helmets. ...
    Close. There is already a... I wouldn't call it an obligation... but a social cost associated with the lifestyle choice to ride without a helmet. I am trying to define that. That cost exists whether anyone wishes it or not. I think I have fairly convincingly shown that; most of the people here agree with it as well, begrudgingly or otherwise. The question is: of what magnitude? Surely you cannot have a debate about value (this is where politics comes in) without quantifying real costs.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  18. #43
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wash. Grove, MD
    My Bikes
    2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
    Posts
    5,068
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Do you ever ride through a park, or take a low key ride near your home?
    I never ride in any of the parks. Define 'low key'?

  19. #44
    Not quite there yet Matariki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Monkey Bottom
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I wear a helmet 99.9% of the time, but I have no confidence that it will play a major role in any riding incident that I experience. I wear it because it feels right, allows me to mount a mirror and a rear light, and it just may be helpful in the rare case that I land on my head. Why in the heck should I pay a premium for subjectively perceived risky behaviour when others all around me do things that are really risky.

    Let's ask for premiums from:

    Anyone that drinks alcohol
    Anyone that operates power machinery
    Anyone that uses a ladder
    Anyone with an electronic communications device
    Anyone who participates in recreational sports
    Anyone who smokes
    Anyone on the water without a PFD
    Anyone who owns a firearm
    Anyone who does not own a firearm
    Anyone who eats raw shellfish
    Anyone who takes a shower - more likely to have a head injury there than on a bike
    Everyone who sucks the medical system dry because they refuse to take care of themselves
    Any pedestrian that trusts cars to yield in crosswalks

    I could go on but you get the idea.
    Any information, no matter how good, will always under-represent reality.
    -paraphrasing J a r o n L a n i e r

  20. #45
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    My Bikes
    Nashbar Road
    Posts
    6,301
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    So, your "strong principle" is you take what you can from who you can because the rules don't say you can't. Got it. Though I always thought a "strong principle" was something you do even when the rules technically say you can get away with it...
    The game is only fun if both sides are reasonably logical. I'll leave you to it then.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    But you ask for a cost while giving nothing to compare against... So my GUESS is $10. I have no idea what that buys me, so why should I start at 100 or 300 or 500 dollars. ...
    Well, $10 buys me a few cups of really expensive Starbucks coffee. Or a decent lunch. We kind of know what a dollar buys us.

    So, why guess $10? You are trying to make the point that you are pulling this out of your ass, but what of my guess? Some reasonable assumption might be that a "serious" cyclist might land on her/his head on average once every 24 years, riding a regular commute route.

    A high side fall onto flat ground at speed will put the back quarter of one's head in direct impact on the ground (ask me how I know... ). With a helmet, if you get a concussion, you'll probably get a ride to the ER (not an ambulance usually), and they'll give you a CT scan and keep you there for a couple hours. Cost: ~$4000.

    A similar fall without a helmet will probably result in an ambulance ride (onlookers will likely call 911 if they see a face-full of blood) and an overnight stay in the hospital for observation. Cost: ~$40k (per unterhausen's experience + ambulance).

    The decision to not wear a helmet, in this situation, cost someone $36k. I can buy a BMW for $36k. Assuming this happens once every 24 years (100-200k miles for your average commute cyclist), this comes to $125/mo (not assuming interest). I can buy a nice jacket for $125. With this calculation, the decision to not wear a helmet amounts to about one jacket per month per person. Someone pays this. Either you, out of pocket (the origins of this thread), or society through socialized/insured medicine.

    ... What is the price of wind in my hair?
    Here is where it gets tricky. We know in our model that the cost is ~$125/month for your helmet decision. What is the price you are willing to pay to keep the wind in your hair?
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 12-11-13 at 06:45 PM.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  22. #47
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Near Portland, OR
    My Bikes
    Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
    Posts
    9,635
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    The game is only fun if both sides are reasonably logical. I'll leave you to it then.
    Righty-o, you rugged individualist you.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  23. #48
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,827
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Well, $10 buys me a few cups of really expensive Starbucks coffee. Or a decent lunch. We kind of know what a dollar buys us.

    So, why guess $10? You are trying to make the point that you are pulling this out of your ass, but what of my guess? Some reasonable assumption might be that a "serious" cyclist might land on her/his head on average once every 24 years, riding a regular commute route.

    A high side fall onto flat ground at speed will put the back quarter of one's head in direct impact on the ground (ask me how I know... ). With a helmet, if you get a concussion, you'll probably get a ride to the ER (not an ambulance usually), and they'll give you a CT scan and keep you there for a couple hours. Cost: ~$4000.

    A similar fall without a helmet will probably result in an ambulance ride (onlookers will likely call 911 if they see a face-full of blood) and an overnight stay in the hospital for observation. Cost: ~$40k (per unterhausen's experience + ambulance).

    The decision to not wear a helmet, in this situation, cost someone $36k. I can buy a BMW for $36k. Assuming this happens once every 24 years (100-200k miles for your average commute cyclist), this comes to $125/mo (not assuming interest). I can buy a nice jacket for $125. With this calculation, the decision to not wear a helmet amounts to about one jacket per month per person. Someone pays this. Either you, out of pocket (the origins of this thread), or society through socialized/insured medicine.



    Here is where it gets tricky. We know in our model that the cost is ~$125/month for your helmet decision. What is the price you are willing to pay to keep the wind in your hair?
    Here is where it gets tricky indeed... go back to my original post and see when I choose to wear a helmet and when I choose not to wear a helmet...

    Your cost is based on "A high side fall onto flat ground at speed." A condition I am unlikely to encounter when I chose to not wear a helmet while "cruising the boardwalk or MUP as I stated in my post."

    So what are the costs I am liable to incur should I fall off my bike at 6-10 MPH... I might need a bandaid. Perhaps an icepack. So my choice of when to wear a helmet already defeats the cost structure you laid out.

    Oh and oddly you could not provide a figure until you "compared it to the cost of the other items in the store..." interesting.

  24. #49
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,827
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    I never ride in any of the parks. Define 'low key'?
    A ride in which you barely exceed your easy jogging pace... just for the sake of argument. (other's "low key" may vary)

  25. #50
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,827
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Close. There is already a... I wouldn't call it an obligation... but a social cost associated with the lifestyle choice to ride without a helmet. I am trying to define that. That cost exists whether anyone wishes it or not. I think I have fairly convincingly shown that; most of the people here agree with it as well, begrudgingly or otherwise. The question is: of what magnitude? Surely you cannot have a debate about value (this is where politics comes in) without quantifying real costs.
    But why focus on cyclists and helmets while ignoring all the other potential social costs associated with other risks... that decouples the cost and makes it valueless. (hence my illogical guess of $10)

    It is like asking a child what they would pay for a candy bar... "a million dollars..." just as silly and illogical.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •