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-   -   Altercation with motorist (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/928460-altercation-motorist.html)

Amaruk 01-04-14 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16381332)
In Oregon, since a citation cannot be issued for a speed that is less than the 85th percentile speed (actually, the next 5 mph increment up) as determined by a recent traffic survey, it is more likely than not that exceeding the 25 mph posted speed limit was not actually illegal. (It's pretty rare for the 85th percentile to be less than 5-10 mph over the posted limit.) It's a lousy situation, but it is what we live with.

Our traffic engineers can't even set speed limits below that 85th percentile level, which is why some pro-bike traffic engineers in PDX have taken to using the timing of the traffic signals to calm the traffic. Spare_wheel has written about this strategy previously.

ORS please.

SHBR 01-04-14 02:58 AM

Lane splitting can cause road rage among some motorists, even if it is legal and common practice.

I think most cyclists would find it difficult to stay calm in the OP's situation.

I'm sure a few people would do more than just shout.

My rule is to never give anyone, especially two wheeled traffic to enough room to pass on the right.

Looigi 01-04-14 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHBR (Post 16381447)
...My rule is to never give anyone, especially two wheeled traffic to enough room to pass on the right.

Seems better they pass on the right than on your left if you're turning left, no?

Continual education and awareness programs on sharing the road with cyclists will help reduce (but certainly not eliminate) incidences like this, IMO. More advocacy money should be spent on this and a bit less on trophy infrastructure projects.

rydabent 01-04-14 08:21 AM

When they stopped together, the OP should have asked him for a pen and paper so that he could write down his license plate number since he was reporting him to the police.

That way for several days he would be stewing in his own juice just waiting for that knock on the door. It would keep in his mind that he did something wrong.

phoebeisis 01-04-14 09:36 AM

Hmmm
Better to ignore sociopaths with 4000 lb "tools"
Yeah-ignore him-or pretend you have a hearing problem-sign at him like that south african "interpreter"
Just ignore them-or report them if you have the time and energy to waste.

howsteepisit 01-04-14 10:15 AM

becarfree - OP admitted to speeding. Just because its not citable does not mean its legal. OR are you claiming that the Oregon law is that all speed limits are really 5 mph more than actually posted? Even Oregon isn not that stupid.

FBinNY 01-04-14 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Looigi (Post 16381567)

Continual education and awareness programs on sharing the road with cyclists will help reduce (but certainly not eliminate) incidences like this, IMO. More advocacy money should be spent on this and a bit less on trophy infrastructure projects.

Amen. Instead of more segregation, let's focus on sharing the road.

dynodonn 01-04-14 10:44 AM

It's been a while since my last verbal altercation with a motorist, and that one was the final straw for me, with my mounting a couple of video cameras to my bike shortly afterwards. Since then, I now wait until I get home, download and review the videos, and by then I'm far calmer, in a better frame of mind, and I generally can make a decision on whether to report the incident or not.

spare_wheel 01-04-14 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16381332)
In Oregon, since a citation cannot be issued for a speed that is less than the 85th percentile speed (actually, the next 5 mph increment up) as determined by a recent traffic survey, it is more likely than not that exceeding the 25 mph posted speed limit was not actually illegal. (It's pretty rare for the 85th percentile to be less than 5-10 mph over the posted limit.) It's a lousy situation, but it is what we live with.

Bingo. And based on precedent it's probably illegal to drive at or near the legal speed limit if you are "impeding" the flow of traffic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16381320)
According to the post he greatly exceeded the 25mph speed limit. Does hot pursuit apply to aggrieved citizens?

I was passing slower moving traffic for several blocks so I had the legal right to exceed the speed limit (not agreeing with this exception to the law). Also, since citizens have the legal right to issue citations in OR, pursuit to obtain a plate is an interesting legal question.

Quote:

OTOH, it might just have been BF bravado.
It's downhill so exceeding the speed limit is easy. I've been riding Hawthorne for 14 years and this is the first incident I can recall. The driver immediately communicated to me that the close pass was intentional. (If only I had my actioncam...)

FBinNY 01-04-14 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16382029)

Since I was passing slower moving traffic for several blocks I likely had the legal right to exceed the speed limit (not agreeing with this exception). Since citizens have the legal right to issue traffic citations in OR pursuit to obtain a plate would be a interest legal question.

I wasn't one who raised the legality issue (I think it's nonsense in this case) and I'm unfamiliar with OR traffic code. However, point here in NYS, the speeding exemption for passing applies only when passing in the opposing lane of a two lane road. The exemption is there in the interest of a quick completion of the pass and return to the right lane.

For my part, I saw nothing wrong with your actions, except that it was non-productive. If it served to vent your anger, and calm don afterward, fine, but I hope you don't expect this stuff to change any attitudes either way. As I said in my first post, here in the NYC metro area, we mostly use a quick hand signal to express our feelings, then move on with our lives.

spare_wheel 01-04-14 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoebeisis (Post 16381827)
Hmmm
Better to ignore sociopaths with 4000 lb "tools"
Yeah-ignore him-or pretend you have a hearing problem-sign at him like that south african "interpreter"
Just ignore them-or report them if you have the time and energy to waste.

Ignoring road bullies only encourages them, IMO. I've had these kinds of conversations with motorists many dozens of times and they were often positive.

spare_wheel 01-04-14 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16382048)
For my part, I saw nothing wrong with your actions, except that it was non-productive. If it served to vent your anger, and calm don afterward, fine, but I hope you don't expect this stuff to change any attitudes either way. As I said in my first post, here in the NYC metro area, we mostly use a quick hand signal to express our feelings, then move on with our lives.

I use the hand signal too but in this case I wanted to talk to they guy on the chance that the close pass was unintentional. I wanted to communicate that he put my life in danger. Obviously the minute the motorist admitted that the buzzing was intentional any opportunity for productive conversation diminished. Call me idealistic but I also believe that confronting anti-social behavior decreases the likelihood of future acting out.

rumrunn6 01-04-14 11:23 AM

I can see how filtering to the front and then taking the lane would piss off some jerk who was already frustrated by being delayed by the delivery trucks. getting grazed or touched in any way is worth reporting as "battery"

FBinNY 01-04-14 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16382097)
I use the hand signal too but in this case I wanted to talk to they guy on the chance that the close pass was unintentional. I wanted to communicate that he put my life in danger. Obviously the minute the motorist admitted that the buzzing was intentional any opportunity for productive conversation diminished. Call me idealistic but I also believe that confronting anti-social behavior decreases the likelihood of future acting out.

I understand that, and occasionally will talk about it with a motorist. But, it only seems to be (possibly) productive if I'm calm. If there's any anger showing at all, dialogue is more likely to be unproductive, or maybe even counter-productive. In any case, the one thing A-holes are best at is convincing themselves that anyone pointing it out are in the wrong. A-holes are very committed to their behavior.

howsteepisit 01-04-14 12:18 PM

Sure take this to your local DA or police station how you went in hot pursuit of the offending motorist to lecture him on driving safety, and get their feedback. For sure the driver was the initial jerk, but in my eyes you do cycling advocacy no favor by taking off in pursuit of a bad driver to "educate" them, in fact I would call it obnoxious behavior serving no purpose but the likely escalation of the situation. Still waiting for the results of your first citizen citation.

I know, how would you feel if drivers chased you down to lecture you on running stop signs? How would you respond to a citizen citation for your traffic violations?

Oh, by the way, as soon as the driver admitted the pass was deliberately close maybe you should have taken down his plate number and reported it as an attempted assault to the police. I absolutely do not condone this type of behavior, just take issue with the vigilante attitude of the OP response.

phoebeisis 01-04-14 12:31 PM

My experience is "talking to reasoning with" an azz-hole doesn't cure him.
Same story "talk to a bully" or whatever you call them-no change

Now reasonable folks-who accidentally did something-yeah maybe it helps
But Reasonable folks-DON'T repeatedly do Azz- Hole stuff so pointless.

Yeah talking to AZZ HOLES never in the history of the world have they ever become "not azz holes"
Best to avoid them-ignore them-prepare to conceal carry them if they become like Turbos fellow road users

the fly 01-04-14 12:35 PM

Nothing at all good can come of this incident.

Absolutely nothing.

mr_bill 01-04-14 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16381248)
I've been saying for 30+ years that bicycle advocacy for segregated infrastructure would lead to mandatory side path laws. Nobody wants to believe that. But if the rational for side paths is safety, then it's a hop skip and jump to saying that we need to stay in those side paths --- for our own good.

As far as I'm concerned, side path infrastructure is proof that we need to be careful what we ask for, in case we get it.

You'd think that after 30+ years, you'd have checked to see that Far Right as Possible and Must Use Path(Lane) provisions date to the 1944 UVC 11-1205 (a)(c). And you'd think you'd check to see with states that had the misfortune to adopt such provisions the trend is to repeal those provisions - Pennsylvania among the latest examples - even while building bike lanes and bike paths.

Let me say that again. THE YEAR NINETEEN-HUNDRED-AND-FOURTY-FOUR.

But why let facts get in the way of FUD?

Sorry that New York adopted their own provisions so long long ago. I would think it would probably be better advocacy to advocate for their repeal, rather than rail against bike infrastructure. But what do I know.

-mr. bill

B. Carfree 01-04-14 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaruk (Post 16381429)
ORS please.

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/hwy/traff...one_manual.pdf
Quote:

Originally Posted by ODOT Speed Zone Manual
Safe and reasonable highway speeds are determined through an engineering study...The principal factor used in establishing speed zones is the 85th percentile speed (the speed at or below which 85 percent of the vehicles are traveling)... Studies suggest posting speeds near the 85th percentile speed minimizes crash occurrenceand provides favorable driver compliance.

From the above link, you can see that traffic engineers in Oregon are required to set the speed limits at the 85th percentile. Any speed limit that is set below that speed places a burden of proof upon the traffic engineer to show cause. This burden has never been met, to my knowledge.

Now, what happens when a citation is issued for someone who exceeds the posted speed when that posted speed is below the 85th percentile? If that person chooses to fight the citation based on a nonconforming speed limit posting, they will win unless the jurisdiction can provide a speed survey that shows the speed limit has been set to the 85th percentile. (I don't have time to look up the court cases right now.) Thus, it is the 85th percentile speed that sets the speed limits in this state. I have seen cases where the judge has ordered the jurisdiction to replace its posted speed limit signs based on successfully fought citations.

How can this be? ODOT gives the answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODOT Speed Zone Manual
Most motorists drive in a reasonable and prudent manner, selecting their driving speeds so as to arrive at their destination safely.

If we changed our laws regarding armed robbery to conform with our laws regarding speeding, here's how it would work. The department of justice would declare, rightfully, that most people won't take up arms and rob banks. However, for those banks that are easy to hit, if many people choose to rob them, then it would be legal.

Yes Virginia (and howsteepisit), Oregon really is that crazy.

zandoval 01-04-14 02:06 PM

Angry moments illustrating the principle of Mass Moment Of Inertia...

Stuff like this can ruin your week just hearing about it...

Someone from Oregon told me road rage was a little better now that more people were doing concealed carry...

Who knows...

unterhausen 01-04-14 02:19 PM

the logic of concealed carry helping stop road rage is rather unlikely. See the recent road-rager dual homicide in Michigan for example. Road ragers often have guns, and are emboldened to act out as a result. It's not rational.

Chris516 01-04-14 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 16382536)
the logic of concealed carry helping stop road rage is rather unlikely. See the recent road-rager dual homicide in Michigan for example. Road ragers often have guns, and are emboldened to act out as a result. It's not rational.

That goes without saying.

spare_wheel 01-04-14 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoebeisis (Post 16382282)
Now reasonable folks-who accidentally did something-yeah maybe it helps
But Reasonable folks-DON'T repeatedly do Azz- Hole stuff so pointless.

And as my OP clearly states, I stopped talking to the dude when it became clear that no accommodation was possible. I'd say 70-80% of the time when I chase down the motorist the conversation is productive. I've had people apologize to me sincerely more times than I can remember.

spare_wheel 01-04-14 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zandoval (Post 16382510)
Angry moments illustrating the principle of Mass Moment Of Inertia...
Stuff like this can ruin your week just hearing about it...
Someone from Oregon told me road rage was a little better now that more people were doing concealed carry...
Who knows...

Sorry but this kind of thing does not ruin my ride/day/week at all. In fact, one of the reasons that I'm bringing it up is because I disagree with the idea that cyclists should always be passive or polite when they are threatened on the road. And since I've been chasing people down for decades I'm not going to be convinced otherwise by someone on the internet. :)

spare_wheel 01-04-14 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 16382255)
I know, how would you feel if drivers chased you down to lecture you on running stop signs? How would you respond to a citizen citation for your traffic violations?

Apples and oranges. But if a motorist did this, I'd almost certainly apologize and pay up. To understand where I'm coming from you really need to understand that much of my commute travels through neighborhoods where cycling mode share is ~20-30%. When a motorist rolls down their window and talks to me most of the time it's a compliment.


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