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  1. #76
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    There is likely very little (if any) difference between the way we ride. However, I have been pulled over several times. Am I "militant" about my road use or just unlucky?
    Probably just unlucky... but will you ride road shoulders if a suitable smooth shoulder exists or do you insist on always riding in the travel lane?

    Oh and by "suitable" I mean at least 5 feet of good pavement, if not more, exists... none of this white line stuff where you are 2 inches over... I think that is just inviting unsafe passes.
    Last edited by genec; 02-07-14 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Probably just unlucky... but will you ride road shoulders if a suitable smooth shoulder exists or do you insist on always riding in the travel lane?

    Oh and by "suitable" I mean at least 5 feet of good pavement, if not more, exists... none of this white line stuff where you are 2 inches over... I think that is just inviting unsafe passes.
    Yes, I will ride a shoulder if it meets those requirements you've listed and is also continuous enough that I won't be making several otherwise unnecessary merges into high speed traffic. I consider a right turn only lane overlaid onto a shoulder as the shoulder ending FWIW. I will also eschew shoulders on high traffic roads with lots of turning traffic. Take a look at Route 202 (Concord Pike) between Route 1 and the Delaware state line for an example of such a shoulder that I consider mostly unusable (there are a few areas of it that I'll use). Note that I have tried to ride it and almost was hit on two consecutive days by turning traffic. Never again. I recall that I counted 22 possible turning points for traffic heading southbound in a 3 mile stretch. I've been pulled over, but never ticketed, for using the right hand lane on 202.

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  3. #78
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    eschew
    Gesundheit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I consider a right turn only lane overlaid onto a shoulder as the shoulder ending FWIW.
    A right turn lane isn't the shoulder (legally and logically).

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    A right turn lane isn't the shoulder (legally and logically).
    Try telling that to a few certain Delaware police officers. It could get you a ticket and will mean nothing in court as well (personal experience).

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Try telling that to a few certain Delaware police officers. It could get you a ticket and will mean nothing in court as well (personal experience).
    That a "few certain Delaware police officers" think so doesn't make it so.

    Anyway, "a ticket" for what? Riding in the right turn lane or not riding in it? (You don't really say what the issue was.)

    Very few states (I have no idea about DE) require cyclists to use the shoulder.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 02-07-14 at 01:16 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    That a "few certain Delaware police officers" think so doesn't make it so.
    I didn't mean to imply that it did. But, I have encountered some on this forum who think that I shouldn't care about riding through a right turn only lane. And DE recently updated their laws to explicitly allow it as well. I still don't do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Anyway, "a ticket" for what? Riding in the right turn lane or not riding in it? (You don't really say what the issue was.)
    Pulled over for riding in the lane when there was a "shoulder" available. Ticketed for not riding to the right of the lane.

    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Very few states (I have no idea about DE) require cyclists to use the shoulder.
    Until 2011, it was illegal for cyclists to travel in the shoulder in DE. My first ticket (referred to above in this post) was prior to the law. And yes, very few states have mandatory shoulder use laws (I think New York does).

  8. #83
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Yes, I will ride a shoulder if it meets those requirements you've listed and is also continuous enough that I won't be making several otherwise unnecessary merges into high speed traffic. I consider a right turn only lane overlaid onto a shoulder as the shoulder ending FWIW. I will also eschew shoulders on high traffic roads with lots of turning traffic. Take a look at Route 202 (Concord Pike) between Route 1 and the Delaware state line for an example of such a shoulder that I consider mostly unusable (there are a few areas of it that I'll use). Note that I have tried to ride it and almost was hit on two consecutive days by turning traffic. Never again. I recall that I counted 22 possible turning points for traffic heading southbound in a 3 mile stretch. I've been pulled over, but never ticketed, for using the right hand lane on 202.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=chadd...vania&t=m&z=14
    Tend to agree with you there... at best I might be tempted to ride just to the right of fog line, but so left that I am visibly obvious... Areas near shopping centers and other high driveway entrances are a dangerous joke for cyclists. What is the speed limit there... I took a look at the street view but never saw a speed limit sign. You are right about the shoulders suddenly being used as RTOL... especially when they aren't even marked... it looked like motorists used them as RTOL anyway.

    Your area reminded me of this area... http://goo.gl/maps/wfbkA This is a 45MPH arterial road, with a BL, but with a driveway or intersection every couple 100 yards or so... an invitation for a right hook. When I commuted this way I would intentionally leave this road and took a slower parallel residential road just to avoid all these driveways. (at least an alternative exists for a few blocks)

    Here is an even worse example... http://goo.gl/maps/BIUVB This is a 55MPH arterial road, also with a BL... just look at all those driveways and thus invitations for right hooks. I won't ride this road west bound if I can avoid it. East bound is along a military base and there are few driveways, so it isn't so bad. But west bound is a nightmare.

    Notice what they have done to the BL here... it just disappears... http://goo.gl/maps/fHzKL No notice to the cyclists or to the 55MPH traffic into which the cyclist now has to merge. This happens at a couple locations along this road. I have written to the city that there should be "Bike Lane Ends Cyclists May Use Full Lane" signs where this occurs... after all, motorists get "Lane Ends" warnings... but not cyclists. No, their response was to put up a "Share The Road" sign at a few locations... here, if you look closely you see a "Bike Route" sign. Yeah, that helps... NOT!

    This is quite typical of the roadways around where I work, and why I don't commute to work at my current location these days. This is just one of the many high speed arterial roads I would have to use to get to work.

    This is why I argue that roads like the one you show, and those I show, can be made more bike friendly... but they are not. In fact, a recent change to the road I just showed http://goo.gl/maps/fHzKL now has a sweeping fast right on ramp to the interstate freeway... nice touch, eh? Whoosh... right on to the freeway... http://goo.gl/maps/S0NON

  9. #84
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    A right turn lane isn't the shoulder (legally and logically).
    It is used that way though... I took a street view look at that road joejack called out, and I could see motorists using the shoulder for a RTOL... they had crossed the fog line and were approaching a right turn. Also in a number of locations, the shoulder markings change and the shoulder is marked to indicate a RTOL, so for all intents and purposes, the shoulder suddenly becomes a travel lane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that it did.
    It was your use of "consider" that is odd. It isn't what you "consider" that matters. It's what the law says (or what you can argue the law says).

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    But, I have encountered some on this forum who think that I shouldn't care about riding through a right turn only lane. And DE recently updated their laws to explicitly allow it as well. I still don't do it.
    ??? Are you saying it's legal for cyclists to use right turn lanes as through lanes in DE?

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Pulled over for riding in the lane when there was a "shoulder" available. Ticketed for not riding to the right of the lane.
    ??? Is it required to ride in the shoulder in DE? I suppose you were trying to go straight? You aren't really being clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Until 2011, it was illegal for cyclists to travel in the shoulder in DE. My first ticket (referred to above in this post) was prior to the law. And yes, very few states have mandatory shoulder use laws (I think New York does).
    That's interesting. No state allows drivers to travel in the shoulder. But I've never heard of any state caring that cyclists use the shoulder.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 02-07-14 at 03:09 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Tend to agree with you there... at best I might be tempted to ride just to the right of fog line, but so left that I am visibly obvious... Areas near shopping centers and other high driveway entrances are a dangerous joke for cyclists. What is the speed limit there... I took a look at the street view but never saw a speed limit sign. You are right about the shoulders suddenly being used as RTOL... especially when they aren't even marked... it looked like motorists used them as RTOL anyway.
    The speed limit is 45-50mph, with traffic typically at 50-60mph. With all the driveways and heavy traffic, it's no wonder why people turn from the shoulder even though it is technically illegal. My two right hooks happened when drivers turned from the right hand lane (technically the only legal way to turn into a driveway). While it may come across as "militant" lane use to some, the only way for me to operate legally AND prevent a right hook from being legally my fault is to ride in the right hand lane.

    I didn't ever make a habit of using 202 when I worked out that way but road closures or inclement weather made it the next best option some days/weeks/months.

  12. #87
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    The speed limit is 45-50mph, with traffic typically at 50-60mph. With all the driveways and heavy traffic, it's no wonder why people turn from the shoulder even though it is technically illegal. My two right hooks happened when drivers turned from the right hand lane (technically the only legal way to turn into a driveway). While it may come across as "militant" lane use to some, the only way for me to operate legally AND prevent a right hook from being legally my fault is to ride in the right hand lane.

    I didn't ever make a habit of using 202 when I worked out that way but road closures or inclement weather made it the next best option some days/weeks/months.
    Yeah it is a hazy area... and in spite of some views of what is legal and not legal, motorists are clearly doing what they think is the right thing... which often leaves cyclist in poor positions. I agree that the only thru lane here is the right most travel lane... but based on the speeds, you will be hassled. This is a typical motorist centric road... borrowing from the shoulder when and where it is determined to best suit MV traffic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    A right turn lane isn't the shoulder (legally and logically).
    It is used that way though... I took a street view look at that road joejack called out, and I could see motorists using the shoulder for a RTOL... they had crossed the fog line and were approaching a right turn.
    ??? I was talking about right turn lanes. That a shoulder is used for right turns doesn't make a right turn lane a shoulder.

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    The speed limit is 45-50mph, with traffic typically at 50-60mph. With all the driveways and heavy traffic, it's no wonder why people turn from the shoulder even though it is technically illegal.
    Slowing down to a crawl on a high-speed road to make a turn from the travel lane is hazardous.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 02-07-14 at 02:45 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    It was your use of "concider" that is odd. It isn't what you "conciders" that matters. It's what the law says (or what you can argue the law says).
    Yes, I am aware of that. Talk to most people in DE (cyclists and motorists) and they'll tell you that Naaman's Road has a nice wide shoulder for cyclists to use. This guy calls it a bike lane: http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...nclick_check=1

    Pretty sure that letter is about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    ??? Are you saying it's legal for cyclists to use right turn lanes as through lanes in DE?
    Yes. Read exception #3 to 4196: http://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/...12/index.shtml

    4196 Position on roadway.

    (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand edge of the roadway except under any of the following circumstances:

    ...

    (3) When proceeding straight in a right-turn-only lane;


    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    ??? Is it required to ride in the shoulder in DE? I suppose you were trying to go straight? You aren't really being clear.
    No, DE does not require shoulder use. Yes, I was going straight when I was ticketed. Yes, several cops have directed me to ride through the right turn only lanes and referred to them as the shoulder.

    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    That's interesting. No state allows drivers to travel in the shoulder. But I've never heard of any state caring that cyclists use the shoulder.
    Prior to 2011, DE only had a law stating that driving on the shoulder was illegal. As cyclists are drivers of vehicles, that meant cycling on the shoulder was also illegal. Section D has now been added to 4196 to allow shoulder use: "(d) Any person operating a bicycle may ride upon a paved shoulder with due regard for any traffic control devices intended to regulate or guide traffic or pedestrians."

    The neighboring state of PA has always had a law explicitly allowing shoulder use by cyclists.

    To make a similar point that you made above, that states (police, etc.) don't "care that cyclists use the shoulder" isn't what matters (at least in a court of law). If I am hit on a shoulder and not using it legally, I am likely to be found at fault. I am glad that DE added that bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Yes, I am aware of that. Talk to most people in DE (cyclists and motorists) and they'll tell you that Naaman's Road has a nice wide shoulder for cyclists to use. This guy calls it a bike lane: http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...nclick_check=1
    More examples of people "considering" stuff (and not looking at what the law says).

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    No, DE does not require shoulder use.
    Basically, no state does (there are a few exceptions).

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Prior to 2011, DE only had a law stating that driving on the shoulder was illegal. As cyclists are drivers of vehicles, that meant cycling on the shoulder was also illegal. Section D has now been added to 4196 to allow shoulder use: "(d) Any person operating a bicycle may ride upon a paved shoulder with due regard for any traffic control devices intended to regulate or guide traffic or pedestrians."
    Every state has that law. I believe no cyclist has ever been ticketed for that law.

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    The neighboring state of PA has always had a law explicitly allowing shoulder use by cyclists.
    That's not typical.

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    To make a similar point that you made above, that states (police, etc.) don't "care that cyclists use the shoulder" isn't what matters (at least in a court of law). If I am hit on a shoulder and not using it legally, I am likely to be found at fault.
    I doubt that. It's possible but not at all likely. And, if the person who hits you in the shoulder is a motor vehicle driver, it's likely it will be "worse" (fault wise) for him. I think you are imaging a problem where there really isn't one.

    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I am glad that DE added that bit.
    States (at least NJ) don't have any requirement to make shoulders suitable for riding. Having a law saying cyclists may use the shoulder might strengthen people's notion that they belong there.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 02-07-14 at 03:17 PM.

  16. #91
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    IMO riding in a right turn only lane, and then going straight ahead is not legal. When a right turn lane presents itself, I ride the white line between the thru land and the right turn lane.

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    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    ??? I was talking about right turn lanes. That a shoulder is used for right turns doesn't make a right turn lane a shoulder.


    Slowing down to a crawl on a high-speed road to make a turn from the travel lane is hazardous.
    It is in this instance... it is a shoulder until it is striped to be a RTOL, then it returns back to being a shoulder... and as a shoulder motorists are using it as a RTOL without the aforementioned stripes... I wonder how often LEOs ticket those folks for "driving on the shoulder?" This seems to be a "multipurpose shoulder" depending on where and who is using it.

  18. #93
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    IMO riding in a right turn only lane, and then going straight ahead is not legal. When a right turn lane presents itself, I ride the white line between the thru land and the right turn lane.
    Ah, the old "road sneak" move... not sure what part of the roadway it is, so "toe the line," eh? No doubt the infamous "act as a driver of a vehicle and you will be treated as one" move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    It is in this instance... it is a shoulder until it is striped to be a RTOL, then it returns back to being a shoulder... and as a shoulder motorists are using it as a RTOL without the aforementioned stripes... I wonder how often LEOs ticket those folks for "driving on the shoulder?" This seems to be a "multipurpose shoulder" depending on where and who is using it.
    I wasn't making any comment about that case. I got what you were describing. People do get tickets for doing that sort of thing in a "striped" region of the roadway. It seems that the cops in this case either aren't there when it happens or don't care. I'm not sure why you think it's a big deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    IMO riding in a right turn only lane, and then going straight ahead is not legal. When a right turn lane presents itself, I ride the white line between the thru land and the right turn lane.
    The Delaware state law allows bicyclists to go straight in a right-turn lane. I don't think that is common.

    Regardless of the law, the cyclist in the right-turn lane going straight should make sure that cars making right-turns don't pass (to avoid being cut off).

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    It is in this instance... it is a shoulder until it is striped to be a RTOL, then it returns back to being a shoulder... and as a shoulder motorists are using it as a RTOL without the aforementioned stripes... I wonder how often LEOs ticket those folks for "driving on the shoulder?" This seems to be a "multipurpose shoulder" depending on where and who is using it.
    I wasn't making any comment about that case. I got what you were describing. People do get tickets for doing that sort of thing in "diagonal striped" or "chevron" regions of the roadway. It seems that the cops in this case either aren't there when it happens or don't care. I'm not sure why you think it's a big deal.

  22. #97
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    I wasn't making any comment about that case. I got what you were describing. People do get tickets for doing that sort of thing in "diagonal striped" or "chevron" regions of the roadway. It seems that the cops in this case either aren't there when it happens or don't care. I'm not sure why you think it's a big deal.
    This area is neither "diagonal striped" nor a "chevron" region. There is no marking on it.

    The whole road that Joejack is using is essentially a 6 lane highway with the outer lane on either side used for what ever is convenient for either the road engineers or the driving public... at times the outer lane is a shoulder, at times it is a RTOL and striped that way, at times it is used as an unmarked RTOL lane for minor roads by the driving public... at no time does the outer lane on either side have a consistent use.

    So a cyclist, wanting to ride straight through really should be in the next lane to the left or the first straight through only lane (or effectively the center lane of the the three lanes on the right side). However to do that, he is forced to "take a lane" on a road that is signed at 45MPH and likely is used at higher speeds... which apparently motorists (and certain LEOs) find offensive.

    Did you bother to go to the link Joejack provided... maybe do a street view cruise of the area so you could actually see what is there. Does Pennsylvania allow for riding straight through on a RTOL?

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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    The Delaware state law allows bicyclists to go straight in a right-turn lane. I don't think that is common.

    Regardless of the law, the cyclist in the right-turn lane going straight should make sure that cars making right-turns don't pass (to avoid being cut off).
    Then you should look at how many states paint bike lanes on the left part of the right turn only lane. So even if not specifically stated in laws, it is very clear the city/state expects cyclist to ride in the right turn only lane and proceed straight through the intersection.
    Last edited by CB HI; 02-07-14 at 08:15 PM.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Then you should look at how many states paint bike lanes on the left part of the right turn only lane. So even if not specifically stated in laws, it is very clear the city/state expects cyclist to ride in the right turn only lane and proceed straight through the intersection.

    The bike lane isn't the right-turn lane. It's a different lane (that's what the paint is there to tell you).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 02-08-14 at 06:54 AM.

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    genec

    May I point out that if I ride the white line between the driving lane and the right turn lane, I am where I should be. But------------the big point here is that I WONT get "right hooked" by a car turning right.

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