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  1. #101
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    genec

    May I point out that if I ride the white line between the driving lane and the right turn lane, I am where I should be. But------------the big point here is that I WONT get "right hooked" by a car turning right.
    If you think it is magic for you to ride that white line... good luck.

    The only way I know to not get right hooked is to watch approaching vehicles from behind with a mirror and ensure that you are not where they are turning right. Being in the right tire track of the right most straight through lane is also another fairly good way to not be right hooked. Riding on the white line where motorists think they can pass pass you, just before they turn right, is no such guarantee... so good luck with that.

    Your odd looking bent bike may help you slightly in that regard as motorists may see you and go "what the...?" and notice you.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    There is likely very little (if any) difference between the way we ride. However, I have been pulled over several times. Am I "militant" about my road use or just unlucky?
    That's my question, too.

    I mean all the ridng I've done and in so many places (48 of the 50 US states and all but one Canadian Province as well as in Europe) and I've yet to be ticketed (knocking on wood ). I have had a few LEO interactions over the years but nothing I couldn't work out in the moment without a ticket or a court date and often having less to do with bicycling and more to do with issues of vagrancy or just plain harassment.

    So what's the deal with all your stops and tickets. 10 LEO stops and how many tickets over a span of how many years?

    Which is it? "militant" or "unlucky"? Are you just a poor hapless victim of chance or are you in control of your destiny?

  3. #103
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post

    The bike lane isn't the right-turn lane. It's a different lane (that's what the paint is there to tell you).
    All the ones I have seen do not allow enough room for both a car and a bicycle to operate independantly. That makes it a shared lane and no different than riding in a right turn only lane without the stupid funny little man painted in it.

    It is not a different lane in reality when both lanes combined are only 9 feet wide and cannot be used independantly. It is just a scam to keep cyclist out of the porper through lane.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    All the ones I have seen do not allow enough room for both a car and a bicycle to operate independantly. That makes it a shared lane and no different than riding in a right turn only lane without the stupid funny little man painted in it.

    It is not a different lane in reality when both lanes combined are only 9 feet wide and cannot be used independantly. It is just a scam to keep cyclist out of the porper through lane.


    If it's a "shared" lane, then it isn't a "right turn only" lane. If there are signs or paint that indicate bicyclists can go straight, those things indicate an exception.

    In most states (DE is one exception), you are legally required to not ride in a "right turn only" lane when going straight (unless there are signs that say you can). Anyway, no one appears to care if riders go straight.

    You (like some others here) seem to have all sorts of odd problems riding.

  5. #105
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post


    If it's a "shared" lane, then it isn't a "right turn only" lane. If there are signs or paint that indicate bicyclists can go straight, those things indicate an exception.

    In most states (DE is one exception), you are legally required to not ride in a "right turn only" lane when going straight (unless there are signs that say you can). Anyway, no one appears to care if riders go straight.
    Yet the signs say "right turn only" and have the right turn only arrow paint.

    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    You (like some others here) seem to have all sorts of odd problems riding.
    Another absurd attempt to deride someone who does not want improper road design. Especially when it muddies the laws you think you know so well.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Yet the signs say "right turn only" and have the right turn only arrow paint.
    Then, it's illegal unless there's a law (like in DE) that says it isn't. That people speed doesn't make it legal to speed.

    It should be easy for you to show what you are talking about.

  7. #107
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Here is one example of the wider lanes. It started out as a right turn only lane, period. Then it got the bike lane painted within the same width of lane (9 feet wide combined). After the intersection the bike lane is combined with the merge lane of 9 feet total.

    See the truck in the left turn lane, that lane is the same 9 feet. Not enough room for both a right turn lane and a bike lane.

    http://goo.gl/maps/3O7AH
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Here is one example of the wider lanes. It started out as a right turn only lane, period. Then it got the bike lane painted within the same width of lane (9 feet wide combined). After the intersection the bike lane is combined with the merge lane of 9 feet total.

    See the truck in the left turn lane, that lane is the same 9 feet. Not enough room for both a right turn lane and a bike lane.

    http://goo.gl/maps/3O7AH
    There's no point in trying to argue whether or not this indicates an unlawful act of using a right-turn-only lane but going straight. It has the defect of trying to keep cyclists out of their proper lane usage, but there is another, probably even more powerful, motive. That is, when one has officially opened the roadways to users who are not expected to be able to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, one has to produce queer designs to show them every step of the way along the road. That is the policy that our nation has officially adopted, both by traffic law (the FTR laws, and similar) and by facilities funding; we lawful, competent cyclists are stuck with that. There's no point in trying to discuss either the engineering or the law with respect to the non-vehicular designs so produced. Our goal should be to work toward getting repeal of the FTR laws so that we, the lawful and competent cyclists, will no longer be in legal jeopardy for obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.

  9. #109
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    genec

    When I am on the white line between the traffic lane that is the thru lane, and the right turn lane that breaks out to the right, I am to the left of the people turning right. There is no way right turning traffic is going to right hook me.

  10. #110
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    genec

    When I am on the white line between the traffic lane that is the thru lane, and the right turn lane that breaks out to the right, I am to the left of the people turning right. There is no way right turning traffic is going to right hook me.
    I often deal with right hand turn lanes on high speed roads where I'm riding OUT on the shoulder edge rather then riding IN the main traffic lanes VC style the exact same way you do, namely to ride the white line between the straight through lane and right turn lane, or often in the very left hand edge of the right hand turn lane just to the right of the line rather then right on it.

    I do absolutely agree with you that it considerably minimizes the chances of getting right hooked and automobile drivers do seem to understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it pretty well for the most part.

    I would hesitate to say though that there was "no way right turning traffic is going to right hook me" that is only true if you make the assumption that they will only make a right hand turn from the right hand turn lane (false assumption with some crazy drivers) or they won't try to "punish hook" you when they enter the right hand turn lane cutting across your front as close as they can.

    When I'm riding in the OUT position (shoulder edge riding) I absolutely agree with you as far as this often being the best technique to use especially on a high speed road where the cars are going anywhere from 45-80 mph and a cyclist is practically standing still compared to them (and often treated accordingly) but its also wise to not get too complacent and assume that it can't happen. It still can, the technique tends to minimize the problem, it doesn't completely cure it.

  11. #111
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Here is one example of the wider lanes. It started out as a right turn only lane, period. Then it got the bike lane painted within the same width of lane (9 feet wide combined). After the intersection the bike lane is combined with the merge lane of 9 feet total.

    See the truck in the left turn lane, that lane is the same 9 feet. Not enough room for both a right turn lane and a bike lane.

    http://goo.gl/maps/3O7AH
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    There's no point in trying to argue whether or not this indicates an unlawful act of using a right-turn-only lane but going straight. It has the defect of trying to keep cyclists out of their proper lane usage, but there is another, probably even more powerful, motive. That is, when one has officially opened the roadways to users who are not expected to be able to obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, one has to produce queer designs to show them every step of the way along the road. That is the policy that our nation has officially adopted, both by traffic law (the FTR laws, and similar) and by facilities funding; we lawful, competent cyclists are stuck with that. There's no point in trying to discuss either the engineering or the law with respect to the non-vehicular designs so produced. Our goal should be to work toward getting repeal of the FTR laws so that we, the lawful and competent cyclists, will no longer be in legal jeopardy for obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles.
    As to the specific set-up shown in that link, I would say that is better then some crazy other stuff I've seen. But would agree its not ideal by an means. The problem is not so much with the principle of the design as it is with how it was implemented and the specific measurements used.

    Starting with the basics from a purely vehicular standpoint, the following are not bad rules in principle:

    ----- "Right turns only from right most lane(s)"
    ----- "Left turns only from left most lane(s)"
    ----- "Straight through traffic in the middle lane(s)"

    And then within the middle straight through traffic stream:

    ----- "Slower traffic use lane(s) more to the right"
    ----- "Faster passing traffic use lane(s) more to the left"

    It's when the last two are placed over and above the first three and above safety concerns and when they are implemented in an unbalanced and prejudiced manner that you have problems.

    When I'm cycling on a high speed road I have no problem with using the right most straight through lane (or even the shoulder edge if its a of sufficient width and surface condition) provided I'm going straight through and that lane is safe to use and isn't a "getto" lane (AKA = gutter bike lane, door zone bike lane, straight through bike lane to the right of right turn only lane, etc . . . ) and when that right lane is a safe, sane, effective, and efficient place to travel I do consider it basic courtesy to use it and not be a (insert explicit(s) of your choice) just for the sake of being one and ticking off other (legal) faster road users just to get my chuckles.

    BUT, getto lanes abound, as do roads with only one narrow lane in each direction of travel or dangerous bike lanes due to width compression of the bike lane and/or adjacent wider vehicle lanes. The OP of this thread is about a specific road with only one very narrow lane in each direction. After seeing the picture in the linked too article, there isn't even any question on that. Absolutely take the lane, there is only one of them and it isn't wide enough to share side by side unless the two sharing vehicles are both narrow profile bikes.



    Specifically on the road view that CB HI linked too, the problem I see is that of a way too narrow for safety compression of the width of that bike line with compressed main lane width on both sides of it. Things get just too tight with a car or wider width vehicle on each side and a cyclist in the middle. The design could work and wouldn't be a problem in my opinion if it was like a 5' wide straight through bike lane with 10' right turn only lane to its right and 10' wide straight through lane to the left. That looks way narrower then it should be and I would prefer no bike lane in that situation such that without the marked bike lane there if I was riding IN the main stream of traffic I would of course just use the right most straight through lane, or if I was riding OUT of the main stream of traffic (shoulder edge riding) when I encountered that right hand turn lane cutting into the shoulder edge I would just ride in the left tire track in the right hand turn lane so I had proper clearance from traffic in the main lane to my left and kept the space on my right small enough to help convince any drivers behind me to stay behind me and not try to squeeze around me on the right and then just road straight through that way. Either way would work fine and I would use either depending on conditions. But like it is now with that officially marked bike lane and all the narrowing up it makes it bad for cyclists to do either of those two techniques and tries to squeeze them into a too narrow space.

    The design itself would work fine if it weren't for the width being compressed down too much. Bare minimum acceptable bike lane width is at least half of what standard traffic lanes are and you shouldn't try to compress main traffic lanes to squeeze in an already too narrow dangerous bike lane because then it makes the bike lane even more dangerous because of the narrow adjacent lane width. I have seen bike lanes at intersections set-up that same way only with the proper width to them and with the proper width that set-up does work fine. I think its only advisable on high speed roads where there is a significant speed differential and I really dislike bike lanes on low speed roads where it isn't a speed differential that is being addressed but rather a prejudiced attitude that's being reinforced but if done properly on high speed roads they can be beneficial. Double edged sword though since if they are done badly they are way worse then no bike lanes at all.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 02-09-14 at 08:51 PM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    That's my question, too.

    I mean all the ridng I've done and in so many places (48 of the 50 US states and all but one Canadian Province as well as in Europe) and I've yet to be ticketed (knocking on wood ). I have had a few LEO interactions over the years but nothing I couldn't work out in the moment without a ticket or a court date and often having less to do with bicycling and more to do with issues of vagrancy or just plain harassment.

    So what's the deal with all your stops and tickets. 10 LEO stops and how many tickets over a span of how many years?

    Which is it? "militant" or "unlucky"? Are you just a poor hapless victim of chance or are you in control of your destiny?
    Please leave the snarkiness out of your remarks unless you want to end this discussion.

    Every single one of my stops (10+) has been for my lane position. I have two tickets in a ten year period (2004-2014, one in 2007 and another in 2013).

    Based on the bolded statement, can I assume that you've never been stopped for your lane position alone? Do you agree or disagree with my lane position on Snuff Mill Road?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    genec

    May I point out that if I ride the white line between the driving lane and the right turn lane, I am where I should be. But------------the big point here is that I WONT get "right hooked" by a car turning right.
    I tried that for a while on Naamans. Then I got squeezed in between a high speed 18 wheeler on my left and a big SUV preparing for a right turn on the other side. 22 feet of total roadway is not enough for the three vehicles trying to share that space and I was almost on the losing end big time. I learned that while it may pass as legal, it's not "where I should be."

  14. #114
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    I tried that for a while on Naamans. Then I got squeezed in between a high speed 18 wheeler on my left and a big SUV preparing for a right turn on the other side. 22 feet of total roadway is not enough for the three vehicles trying to share that space and I was almost on the losing end big time. I learned that while it may pass as legal, it's not "where I should be."
    Good example of a bad thing. I was squeezed by a city trash truck while trying the white line thing many many years ago... taught me to claim the lane or get out of it completely.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    Please leave the snarkiness out of your remarks unless you want to end this discussion.

    Every single one of my stops (10+) has been for my lane position. I have two tickets in a ten year period (2004-2014, one in 2007 and another in 2013).

    Based on the bolded statement, can I assume that you've never been stopped for your lane position alone? Do you agree or disagree with my lane position on Snuff Mill Road?
    Sorry if you took my attempt at humor as "snarkiness". I am more than capable of snarky but that post wasn't a good example.

    Regarding your lane position on Snuff Mill Road. From your description I would say I agree with your choice of lane position on that road. Given the type of road it would be hard to imagine an alternative.

    However, I wasn't there to witness your traffic stop and have no clear idea of the circumstances under which you were stopped. I'm really wondering why a cop took the time and effort to pull you over for riding in the lane when it seems the obvious place to ride.

    And then issued you a ticket?! Just something seems off to me.

    Am I getting this right? You have been stopped 10x's in 10 years due to your lane position? That's an average of once per year.

    Is it 10 different cops?

    How many miles a year are you riding? I am really trying to figure out why your percentage of traffic stops is so high and always for lane position.

    As for me, stopped for lane position alone?- not really. Once, about 35 years ago for not riding on a bike path but using the roadway. I argued it in the moment and he let me stay on the road. The two or three other times (over the past 40+ years of adult riding) were issues of whether the bike could be legally ridden on the particular road due to access (interstate, state highway with limited access) and one sheriff in the Deep South in the early 1970's who just didn't think we should be on a bike anywhere near his town.
    Last edited by buzzman; 02-10-14 at 11:42 AM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Sorry if you took my attempt at humor as "snarkiness". I am more than capable of snarky but that post wasn't a good example.
    No problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Regarding your lane position on Snuff Mill Road. From your description I would say I agree with your choice of lane position on that road. Given the type of road it would be hard to imagine an alternative.

    However, I wasn't there to witness your traffic stop and have no clear idea of the circumstances under which you were stopped. I'm really wondering why a cop took the time and effort to pull you over for riding in the lane when it seems the obvious place to ride.

    And then issued you a ticket?! Just something seems off to me.
    Ok, we're getting somewhere. You agree with my lane position which means unless you would have somehow reacted differently to seeing (assuming you wear a mirror) a cop approach from behind (perhaps moving further right) then he would have pulled you over, too. And perhaps even ticketed you. How would you have responded to the statement, "You can either listen to me (ride further right) or get a ticket."? Keep in mind that this cop and I travel the same route in the morning. I've seen him before and I'll see him again.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Am I getting this right? You have been stopped 10x's in 10 years due to your lane position? That's an average of once per year.

    Is it 10 different cops?

    How many miles a year are you riding? I am really trying to figure out why your percentage of traffic stops is so high and always for lane position.
    Yes, average once per year but as I said earlier, probably half of those happened in a single year (2007). Part of my typical commute route at the time was closed for construction so I re-routed on to some more major roads (up to 3 miles from 0.5 on Naamans, ~5 miles on Route 202, and 1 mile on Route 1, twice a day).

    Only once have I encountered a cop twice. In 2011, the same officer who ticketed me in 2007 pulled me over on my way home from work (coming from my new job which I commuted to via a few miles on Naamans each way). He asked why I was still using the road and I produced the paper work showing the dismissal of that ticket. He drove off after letting me know I was "on my own" if I continued using the right hand lane, whatever that means.

    I have averaged ~5000 miles/year since 2004 (some years closer to 3k, some closer to 7k).

    [Edit] I responded to your post before you added your police interactions. Thanks for sharing them. Do note that since I have only received two tickets, that also means that in the moment I have talked my way out of several potential tickets for my lane position. I add this because perhaps it may shed some light on this situation and which party is the one acting out of line.
    Last edited by joejack951; 02-10-14 at 11:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    How would you have responded to the statement, "You can either listen to me (ride further right) or get a ticket."? Keep in mind that this cop and I travel the same route in the morning. I've seen him before and I'll see him again...
    Okay, to be fair to you I can't honestly say exactly how I would respond because this is like Monday morning quarterbacking. Maybe I'd have been so put out by what I felt was an unwarranted stop that I would respond differently than what I say here.

    And keep in mind I am fully aware of the civil libertarian issues surrounding the choice to obey or disobey what a citizen may view as an unreasonable and/or unlawful order by a police officer.

    And while I have not ridden on Snuff Mill Road I have ridden on roads like it and I can be flexible on a road like that with regards my lane position. So with that in mind.

    I might respond like this:

    "Well, I certainly don't want to get a ticket but at the same time not only do I feel that the safest position for me to be on this road is where I was riding but I also feel it is my legal right to ride there. Since we obviously disagree on the interpretation of the law I am going to acquiesce to your order only because you are a police officer and I respect the challenges that go along with the job.

    So I am obeying your order not because I am legally obligated to do so but out of respect for your authority. I will be contacting your supervisor with pertinent information regarding the law and my right to ride on the road because I will be riding this road again and would like to be able to ride it as safely as possible and within the law, which, in my opinion is the manner in which I was riding when you stopped me."

    Again, there may be times and places when I would steadfastly refuse to obey what I felt was a totally unreasonable order by a police officer. For me, this is not one of those times. Look at the endless arguments in these forums, among bike riders, about lane position that an LEO doesn't get it exactly right every time doesn't strike me as particularly egregious or unreasonable and some judges might agree. And in that sense it is not legally an unreasonable order even if he is not legally correct.

    Oh, and BTW, had I seen a cop approaching from behind I would most definitely have moved further right if it were safe to do so at the time.
    Last edited by buzzman; 02-10-14 at 03:17 PM.

  18. #118
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I might respond like this:

    "Well, I certainly don't want to get a ticket but at the same time not only do I feel that the safest position for me to be on this road is where I was riding but I also feel it is my legal right to ride there. Since we obviously disagree on the interpretation of the law I am going to acquiesce to your order only because you are a police officer and I respect the challenges that go along with the job.

    So I am obeying your order not because I am legally obligated to do so but out of respect for your authority. I will be contacting your supervisor with pertinent information regarding the law and my right to ride on the road because I will be riding this road again and would like to be able to ride it as safely as possible and within the law, which, in my opinion is the manner in which I was riding when you stopped me."
    Many cops would give you a ticket just for the speech.

    Me, I just ask for a supervisor to respond.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    Many cops would give you a ticket just for the speech....
    Too true!

    Yeah, when I perceive what I think is an injustice I tend to get off my bike and climb up on a very high horse.

  20. #120
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    Anymore I've taken to "playing mute" and handing them my statement in writing, which normally consists of the actual law concerned with sections highlighted. Although refusing to say anything and instead repeatably pointing the the written statement for some reason seems to make some officers even more angry then giving them a speech like that quoted above.

    They also seem to get rather annoyed when I use their own cruiser for an object lesson demonstrating how their car and my bike cannot safely share the lane (while still playing mute) and if side by side in the same lane are so close they make physical contact (very gently rest the end of my handlebars against the side of their cruiser with my hand in-between the end of the bar and their car so I can't be accused assault on cop car paint job with end of bicycle handlebars). And they also don't like it when I give them the FedDOT documentation excerpts that clearly state that at bare minimum a lane must be at least 14-feet wide for a normal width automobile and a normal width bicycle to safely share side by side (wording that matches on the the FRAP law exceptions in my state) and that if the automobile and/or bike is wider then normal even more width may be required and then hand them a tape measure out of my bike bag (still playing mute).

    I think it might also be the look in my eyes while I'm doing this that also plays a part as well.




    Like Buzzman I also have an issue when I perceive an injustice but instead of yelling and stomping, I tend to get very quite (not as in don't say much but as in angry half whispering) and very cold. My woman says that its my "Hell Freezing Over" cold anger mood. Which is part of the reason why I've taken to playing mute, cops seem to get really nervous around my ice cold angry whisper voice, for some reason it tends to freak them out which I've had problems with before in previous "anti-cycle prejudiced cop" encounters before. At least that is how it works in person face to face. In text it isn't as bad because the ice doesn't translate into the text.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 02-11-14 at 12:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Okay, to be fair to you I can't honestly say exactly how I would respond because this is like Monday morning quarterbacking. Maybe I'd have been so put out by what I felt was an unwarranted stop that I would respond differently than what I say here.
    Yes, this was an unwarranted stop in my opinion, and by an officer who had previously demonstrated to me that my safety on the roads was not a concern of his (yet he immediately launched into a safety speech when he got out of the car).

    And keep in mind I am fully aware of the civil libertarian issues surrounding the choice to obey or disobey what a citizen may view as an unreasonable and/or unlawful order by a police officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    And while I have not ridden on Snuff Mill Road I have ridden on roads like it and I can be flexible on a road like that with regards my lane position.
    What do you mean by flexible? For me, I'll be flexible once someone has demonstrated to me that my safety (and not their convenience) is a priority, i.e. waiting patiently behind me through a sweeping blind turn until sightlines improve. Once I have that confidence in the driver, I have no problem shifting a bit (or more) right depending on the size of the vehicle to help them pass more easily. I move near the edge frequently to share lanes with motorcyclists and other cyclists, too. However, moving right is never my initial reaction. I have been burned too many times trying to be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    I might respond like this:
    All of that assumes that I'll have any better chance dealing with a supervisor. As far as cycling is concerned, all of my dealings with New Castle county police have been negative (this was a county cop). I honestly think it would be a waste of time. Not unlike my court case, but at least the court case will end with a clear result (yes, it could go either way).

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
    Oh, and BTW, had I seen a cop approaching from behind I would most definitely have moved further right if it were safe to do so at the time.
    A cop with no lights on, on a very narrow road, going around a sweeping blind curve with a double yellow line? If so, why? What purposes would it serve to move in a manner that might encourage an unsafe pass? I realize that I left out some of that context so perhaps your answer will be different with that in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    And they also don't like it when I give them the FedDOT documentation excerpts that clearly state that at bare minimum a lane must be at least 14-feet wide for a normal width automobile and a normal width bicycle to safely share side by side (wording that matches on the the FRAP law exceptions in my state) and that if the automobile and/or bike is wider then normal even more width may be required and then hand them a tape measure out of my bike bag (still playing mute).
    Do you have a link to that FedDOT documentation?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    Do you have a link to that FedDOT documentation?

    Thanks
    There are multiple ones, some clearer then others. The one I can give you the quickest online link too (I have it memorized) is here:

    http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/...e/fhwasa12018/

    Scroll down to find this:

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Highway Administration, FHWA-SA-12-018, Section 1.6 Glossary of Terms
    . . .

    Shared Lane—A lane of a traveled way that is open to bicycle travel and motor vehicle use.

    Narrow Lane—A travel lane less than 14 feet in width, which therefore does not allow bicyclists and motorists to travel side-by-side within the same traffic lane and maintain a safe separation distance.

    Wide Curb Lane—A travel lane at least 14 feet wide, adjacent to a curb, which allows bicyclists and motorists to travel side-by-side within the same traffic lane.

    . . .

    There are others as well, which include visual diagrams demonstrating the space necessary along with others that indicate that even the 14-foot width is not sufficient if the automobile and/or bicycle are wider then "normal" (and in the diagrams does show what they consider normal width for each). It would take me some time to dig through my files and find all the original source info for you though and provide online links. I've basically cut and pasted it all into little pamphlets and cards for my bike bag and the original source info including the websites and even a few hard copy printed documents I have copies of are in my files at home (for when I end up having to go to court because the officer still writes me a ticket anyway).

    In the linked to publication if you research further will find that the reason they deliberately specify "curb lane" (a lane that is adjacent to a curb) is because if there are parked cars the cyclist needs more room on their right side between them and the parked cars as a hazard (which makes the over-all more then 14-feet) where as when there is not parked cars to the cyclist right side just the edge of the road then they don't need as much clearance room on their right side.

    Me personally though, since any marked travel lane that is at least 14-feet wide is as rare as hens teeth and 99% or better of all lanes are narrower where I live and ride, that is all I usually need along with a tape-measure to turn the tables on ignorant LEO officers. Now if they are not just ignorant but rather have deliberate malicious prejudiced intentions then I'm probably going to have to battle out in court anyway so save the deeper stuff for then.

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    Also, scroll to the bottom of that publication and use the links at the bottom (especially the official .gov ones) to do further back research to even more official stuff including some that if you trace the links back far enough are official statement to LEOs as in "do this" and "don't do this" kind of stuff telling cops what they are supposed to do and not allowed to do from a position of higher authority further up the chain of command. Similar to when state attorney generals issue similar statements (check those for your state too for anything bicycle right of road use related !!!)

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    Here is how I specifically used that exact publication in court with one belligerently arrogant and viciously prejiduced offer bent on malicious prosecution of me for riding in the middle of a traffic lane that was barely less then 8-foot wide measured width (and on an in-town road with TWO lanes each direction of travel of which I was using the right most one, which has a speed limit of 25-mph where I was going 20-ish where there is no shoulder edge and no sidewalk along the road !!!):

    I put the officer on the stand and first had him read the "Abstract" from the federal filing cover sheet for that publication out load in traffic court:

    Quote Originally Posted by Abstract:
    “Road Safety Audits (RSAs) are a formal safety examination of an existing or future roadway or off-road facility and are conducted by an independent, experienced, multidisciplinary team. The purpose of the Bicycle Road Safety Audit Guidelines and Prompt Lists is to provide transportation agencies and RSA teams with a better understanding of the safety of cyclists in the transportation system when conducting an RSA. These Guidelines present the RSA team with an overview of basic principles of the safety of cyclists and potential issues affecting cyclists. They also provide information on how to conduct an RSA and effectively assess the safety of cyclists. Prompt lists describe safety considerations when conducting a cyclist-specific RSA. These Guidelines will help RSA teams evaluate and suggest a multimodal approach to safety by improving the safety of cyclists and all roadway users.
    Then I had the officer read the "Glossary" section out load in traffic court:

    Quote Originally Posted by Glossary:
    The glossary is intended to identify terms used in these Guidelines referring to bicycle facility planning, design, and engineering. This glossary will help to establish the appropriate and consistent terminology for everyone involved in the RSA process.”
    I then had him read out loud the definitions listed in that glossary as quoted above concerning shared lanes, narrow lanes, and wide curb lanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by U.S. Department of Transportation, Federal Highway Administration, FHWA-SA-12-018, Section 1.6 Glossary of Terms
    . . .

    Shared Lane—A lane of a traveled way that is open to bicycle travel and motor vehicle use.

    Narrow Lane—A travel lane less than 14 feet in width, which therefore does not allow bicyclists and motorists to travel side-by-side within the same traffic lane and maintain a safe separation distance.

    Wide Curb Lane—A travel lane at least 14 feet wide, adjacent to a curb, which allows bicyclists and motorists to travel side-by-side within the same traffic lane.

    . . .
    I then stated that I am using the professional definitions of those who specialize in bicycle safety and are responsible for federal audits of same across the entire united states on an established professional level and interpreting what my states FRAP law meant by its, lane too narrow for an automobile and bicycle to travel safely side by side, exception to FRAP based on that professional national FedDOT standard.

    I then asked the officer on the stand under oath whether he believed that he knew more about bicycle safety then the entire task force group responsible for nationwide cyclist-specific road safety audits analysis made up of an “independent, experienced, multidisciplinary team”? And if so why, especially considering I had to show him the state law on the scene at the time in question and he didn't even know his own states law that he tried to give me a ticket for not following and argued with me that there were no exceptions to it first and then argued that the exceptions didn't really mean what they said !!!

    Basically if used strategically that document can be used to corner these yo-yos on the witness stand under oath if they give you a ticket for controlling a lane that is narrower then 14′ (and usually not just a ticket but all kinds of threats and non-literal chest thumping and such as well).

    I do agree that if you end up having to control a lane that is 14′ or wider due to wide width motor traffic (usually heavy trucks but not always) then you will have to do a whole lot more work and use another technique and other documention besides this one but so far that hasn’t happened to me. So far every time I’ve been harassed and ticketed and drug into court and had to defend my actions the lane has been narrower then 14′ and this is one of the most direct ways to fight it I’ve come up with so far.

    Probably because on the rare occasion where I encounter a lane that wide or wider I do share it and move to the right to allow automobile traffic behind me to pass me within the lane.





    JUST BECAUSE THIS WORKS FOR ME AND I'VE ALREADY WON USING IT DOES NOT GUARANTEE YOU WILL BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME ~ REGARDLESS I GO IN TO COURT "LOADED FOR BEAR" AND HAVE A WHOLE THICK STACK OF ALL KINDS OF RESEARCH AND STUFF LIKE THIS ~ IF THE FIRST MOST SIMPLEST ONE LIKE THIS ONE DON'T WORK THEN I'VE GOT MORE AMMO (figuratively speaking) LOADED AND READY TO GO.

    YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IN COURT WITH NO FRIENDS ~ DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND PLAN YOUR OWN FIGHT AND LOAD YOUR OWN AMMO (figuratively speaking) AND CLEAN AND OIL YOUR OWN GUNS FOR THE FIGHT (figuratively speaking).

    THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, I AM ONLY RELATING MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 02-11-14 at 09:44 PM.

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