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  1. #151
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris516 View Post
    Even though I don't live in San Diego County. This is another reason why, I am such a proponent of 'taking the lane'. If a state/county won't paint wide shoulders, they have to put up with the lane being taken by a cyclist.
    When there is no other choice... well, there is no other choice. Too bad the motorists fail to understand that.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    When there is no other choice... well, there is no other choice. Too bad the motorists fail to understand that.
    To them the other choice is to get off the "hipster" bike and get a car because that's what the roads were made for...

    Their thoughts, not mine.
    2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon 3 Ultegra
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  3. #153
    Senior Member Brennan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
    It's been a little while since I posted here, but I wanted to check in and let everyone know that I successfully defended myself on Tuesday (with the assistance of an expert witness courtesy of BikeDE). The case went mostly to plan and I learned a few things about how to present a good (better) defense. You can read a little about it here: A Busy Tuesday! Cyclist Is Not Guilty. Rumble Strip Fix Test Will Be Completed by 2nd Week of June | Bike Delaware Inc.
    Congrats on the win, and thanks for exercising your constitutionally guaranteed right to a trial rather than just caving and paying the fine.

  4. #154
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    They can't write me a ticket for riding my bicycle anywhere in this state. A bicycle is a vehicle, by state law, and I have a right to ride on any public roadway, where ever I want, except where specifically prohibited (such as closed roads, sidewalks, etc...). I also have the same responsibilities, and will be ticketed, or arrested for breaking the laws and statutes. I don't agree with all the laws in Ga., but I will say this for them....When they make a law, they enforce it, and do so fairly. It applies to everyone equally.

  5. #155
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Cops give out, what?, 10,000 speeding tickets for every ticket to a bicyclist.
    Somehow I suspect this is not true.

    Austin's police department has stated that about 1% of the tickets they give out are to cyclists. (And yes, I imagine that very few of these are for speeding.)

    I could look up what percentage of the tickets that APD gives out are for speeding but even if I assume it's 30% that's only a 30:1 ratio here, not 10,000:1.

    I see the smilie so I imagine you're being facetious ... but even so, I thought this was worth mentioning.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Somehow I suspect this is not true.

    Austin's police department has stated that about 1% of the tickets they give out are to cyclists. (And yes, I imagine that very few of these are for speeding.)

    I could look up what percentage of the tickets that APD gives out are for speeding but even if I assume it's 30% that's only a 30:1 ratio here, not 10,000:1.

    I see the smilie so I imagine you're being facetious ... but even so, I thought this was worth mentioning.
    This is an OLD thread. Schwinnhund is bizarrely resurrecting a whole mess of old threads for some reason.

    That 1% of tickets in Austin seems way high (I'd have to see a citation for that). And Austin is one place. That is, if it's really that high in Austin, it doesn't mean it's that high everywhere.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 07-21-14 at 05:29 PM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwinnhund View Post
    <whatever.
    Why are you replying to so many old threads? Did you just get released?

  8. #158
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    This is an OLD thread. Schwinnhund is bizarrely resurrecting a whole mess of old threads for some reason.

    That 1% of tickets in Austin seems way high (I'd have to see a citation for that). And Austin is one place. That is, if it's really that high in Austin, it doesn't mean it's that high everywhere.
    OK, my memory failed me ... it's one half of a percent of all citations, not one percent.

    But even if Austin's percentage is quadruple the national average, and running with my 30% guess ... that's still only a 240:1 ratio, still somewhat short of 10,000:1.

    And this particular thread is only six months old ... so "old", not "OLD" or "OLD" or "OLD".
    Last edited by dougmc; 07-21-14 at 07:12 PM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    OK, my memory failed me ... it's one half of a percent of all citations, not one percent.

    But even if Austin's percentage is quadruple the national average, and running with my 30% guess ... that's still only a 240:1 ratio, still somewhat short of 10,000:1.

    And this particular thread is only six months old ... so "old", not "OLD" or "OLD" or "OLD".
    You had no idea how old the thread was.

    So, it's a factor of 200. That's huge!

    10,000 was an obvious exaggeration.

    Austin is a college town/city. The percentage of cyclists is possibly multiple factors larger than many places in the US.

    0.5% still seems oddly large.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 07-21-14 at 07:38 PM.

  10. #160
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    You had no idea how old the thread was.
    So? I remember when it first appeared, but I didn't go back and check the date until you brought it up. And it's not *that* old -- less than two months since the guy updated the thread to say he won in court.

    So, it's a factor of 200. That's huge!
    Compared to what?

    Cars outnumber cyclists about 50:1 in this town (the cyclist modal share is 2% here lately according to the city), so it shouldn't surprise you that there's more speeding tickets than cyclist tickets. What was the point of that ("obvious exaggeration") statistic anyways?

    Also note that the 240:1 figure was assuming that the national average was 4x Austin (which was a wild ass guess) -- if 30% of the tickets that APD writes in Austin are for speeding (another wild ass guess, but if we include tickets for things like inspection and tags, and I suspect that APD does when they count their tickets, I suspect that the percentage is probably less than that) then the Austin figure is 60:1.

    0.5% still seems oddly large.
    And yet you have your citation. If you don't like it, take it up with Acevedo. As you said, it's a college town, and we have more cyclists than most other cities for that and perhaps other reasons.

    Given the 2% and 0.5% figures ... it does say that motorists get cited 4x as often as cyclists here, if we take the modal share at face value. Though I wonder if that also includes things that cyclists never get cited for like license/registration/inspection/insurance. Pulling over one car one time can result in a ticket for no insurance, no inspection, expired tags, no license ... and running a stop sign, where the cyclist is only eligible for the latter. I wonder if that's part of the difference -- after all, I know a significant number of moving violations also come with something else -- expired tags or inspection or no insurance being the most common -- but I don't know the exact percentage. I
    Last edited by dougmc; 07-22-14 at 12:32 AM.

  11. #161
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    It's still open, isn't it? What have you got against others continuing a discussion? If it bugs you, then just ignore it.

    And I mildly take exception to the characterization that I might be a felon. That was uncalled for. I am a pro musician, and I travel a lot, mostly to places without an internet connection, or the time to use one. So when I get some time off, it takes me a bit to catch up. As far as I know, there is no law against that.

    Since there have been a few replies after mine, It seems others also do not mind continuing the discussions. Are they at fault as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Why are you replying to so many old threads? Did you just get released?

  12. #162
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    Interesting points. I think you are on to something there. A motor vehicle can be cited for a multitude of violations that do not effect bicyclists. One traffic stop could result in 5 or more separate citations being issued (in theory, anyway)....so, if we go by the raw number of citations, without regard to how many traffic stops were involved, you would probably get a very inflated figure that could be somewhat misleading. You would really need all the information to make a proper evaluation. That could be a tough job.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    So? I remember when it first appeared, but I didn't go back and check the date until you brought it up. And it's not *that* old -- less than two months since the guy updated the thread to say he won in court.

    Compared to what?

    Cars outnumber cyclists about 50:1 in this town (the cyclist modal share is 2% here lately according to the city), so it shouldn't surprise you that there's more speeding tickets than cyclist tickets. What was the point of that ("obvious exaggeration") statistic anyways?

    Also note that the 240:1 figure was assuming that the national average was 4x Austin (which was a wild ass guess) -- if 30% of the tickets that APD writes in Austin are for speeding (another wild ass guess, but if we include tickets for things like inspection and tags, and I suspect that APD does when they count their tickets, I suspect that the percentage is probably less than that) then the Austin figure is 60:1.

    And yet you have your citation. If you don't like it, take it up with Acevedo. As you said, it's a college town, and we have more cyclists than most other cities for that and perhaps other reasons.

    Given the 2% and 0.5% figures ... it does say that motorists get cited 4x as often as cyclists here, if we take the modal share at face value. Though I wonder if that also includes things that cyclists never get cited for like license/registration/inspection/insurance. Pulling over one car one time can result in a ticket for no insurance, no inspection, expired tags, no license ... and running a stop sign, where the cyclist is only eligible for the latter. I wonder if that's part of the difference -- after all, I know a significant number of moving violations also come with something else -- expired tags or inspection or no insurance being the most common -- but I don't know the exact percentage. I

  13. #163
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    njkay

    Actually I like to read the results of old threads. Threads are posted when things happen such as a cyclist getting a ticket they shouldnt have. We are then left hanging as to the out come. Court cases take a long time unfortunately.
    The bottom line here is I like to hear the final outcome.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwinnhund View Post
    It's still open, isn't it? What have you got against others continuing a discussion? If it bugs you, then just ignore it.

    And I mildly take exception to the characterization that I might be a felon. That was uncalled for. I am a pro musician, and I travel a lot, mostly to places without an internet connection, or the time to use one. So when I get some time off, it takes me a bit to catch up. As far as I know, there is no law against that.
    It's odd, very odd, that somebody replys to 10+ threads at the same time.

    And, even being a member since 2008, you didn't know the answer to this question?

    Helmet Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwinnhund View Post
    Since there have been a few replies after mine, It seems others also do not mind continuing the discussions. Are they at fault as well?
    People usually have no idea that it's a resurrected old thread.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 07-22-14 at 09:26 AM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    So, it's a factor of 200. That's huge!
    Compared to what?
    Compared to most anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Cars outnumber cyclists about 50:1 in this town (the cyclist modal share is 2% here lately according to the city), so it shouldn't surprise you that there's more speeding tickets than cyclist tickets.
    It doesn't surprise me at all. The "10,000" comment makes it very clear that I expected it.

    Your "200 times more" statistic actually makes my case.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    What was the point of that ("obvious exaggeration") statistic anyways?
    Maybe, you should go back and read what I replied to in this old thread.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
    njkay

    Actually I like to read the results of old threads. Threads are posted when things happen such as a cyclist getting a ticket they shouldnt have. We are then left hanging as to the out come. Court cases take a long time unfortunately.
    The bottom line here is I like to hear the final outcome.
    That would be a good reason to resurrect an old thread!

  17. #167
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Your "200 times more" statistic actually makes my case
    My statistic was 60:1, and that was to be compared directly to your 10,000:1 figure except that it only covers one specific area where I had concrete data available. (I don't have specific data on what percentage of tickets APD writes are for speeding, however -- that part was an estimate. and I suspect it was on the high side.)

    The 240:1 (not 200:1, by the way) was given as a possiblity, but not supported by statistics. You're welcome to support it on your own, however.

    It doesn't surprise me at all. The "10,000" comment makes it very clear that I expected it.
    You estimate 10,000, I calculate 60, and then you expected the 60?

    It seems that you think that 1) motorists greatly outnumber cyclists (true -- here the ratio is 50:1, in some other places it's 100:1 or higher), and 2) police almost never cite cyclists (maybe where you live, but here it's not true.) That's the only way to come up with a ratio in the thousands.

    Yes, police write more tickets for speeding (mostly to drivers of motor vehicles, though occasionally a cyclist gets one) than they write to cyclists. But the ratio must be somewhere around 100:1 rather than 10,000:1.

    Police write enough tickets to cyclists that they should have at least a passing familiarity with the relevant laws, or should know to look up the laws when needed.
    Last edited by dougmc; 07-22-14 at 10:41 AM.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    You estimate 10,000, I calculate 60, and then you expected the 60?
    ????

    It was an obvious exaggeration.

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