RPK79

I dabble in day trading of bicycle tickets.

CommuteCommando

True. You know this, and I know this. Still there are those, cyclist and non cyclist alike, who believe that it means hug the gutter at all times. What I am getting at is that there are too many people who do not know what it means.

rydabent

FRAP-----------Since almost every kid rode a bike growing up, why is there such ignorance in the fact that most cyclist do not ride a perfectly straight line. To keep a bike upright there has to be some manuver room from the intended path. Less experenced riders need more manuver room as they wobble some from their path.

IMO that means there might be as much as two feet on either side of the riding line. That is a 4 foot lane. Add to that a 3 foot passing distance, and that means a cyclist needs to have 7 foot from the absolute edge of a suitable lane or shoulder. So with no shoulder at all, and a drop off at the edge of the road to me FRAP has to equal at least 7 feet of the road way. It is the cyclist that has to determine if that is not true on the paticular street or hiway he or she is riding. For the police to believe that a cyclist should ONLY be allowed 4 inches right at the edge of the street is ignorance of reality and the law.

Standalone 

NJ Kayaker. You'd make a fine cop.

joejack951

That is my hope as well. An ideal follow-up would be that the AFRAP law is repealed as it seems to be the source of so much of this confusion.

In general, I don't get a lot of hostility either. And for every exception to that statement, there is someone who goes out of their way to be friendly toward me.

Thanks! I owe a huge debt of gratitude to BikeDE for helping me out this round though.

Paul Barnard

I will be following this closely. I have frequent discussions about who gets to determine what practicable is. I opine that practicable is in the eyes of the rider. Others opine that the decison lies with law enforcement. Ultimately you'll explain how you determined the practicability of your lane position to the judge and he'll either agree or not. I feel confident you'll prevail. Has a court date been set?

himespau 

It seems like this should be a slam dunk. Too bad it takes a lot of time and money to make this right.

rydabent

I am looking forward to hear the out come of this bit of nonsense.

joejack951

May 27, 2014. I will be sure to update everyone as this case progresses.

wphamilton

Good luck joejack! Are you hoping for a quick dismissal even if it's from a no-show by the cop, or do you look forward to having your say in court to settle this question in your locality?


Of course the signs would inform law enforcement and change driver behavior. It's probably not even worth arguing about, although some actual data from a traffic study would be helpful to drive your proposal.

joejack951

The latter, for sure. I'll honestly be pissed if the officer does not show, but I'm pretty sure he will. This ticket happened during my morning commute so it is only a matter of time before we encounter each other again. If nothing else, I want this issue settled on this road with this officer so that I don't have to deal with it any more.

rydabent

Court case in May****************************** It should be dismissed for that fact that it isnt a speedy trial promised by law.

scott967

Guessing it is written as an "infraction", not a criminal complaint so speedy trial rules don't apply.

scott s.
.

rydabent

What is really stupid here is the fact we hear that the courts are jam packed with court cases. If the county or city att that is doing this case had any common sense at all, he or she would dismiss this case they are sure to lose.

rumrunn6

no but I got stopped by undercover cops cuz they thought I was suspicious sitting on a wall taking a break. they even questioned my gloves - as if I was a cat burglar or something. they actually told me to get moving and not come back to their town. I think I was 17 at the time. freakin clowns

blacknbluebikes 

Cops are paid by "we, the people" to address safety situations and write tickets according to the law as they best understand them. They have some latitude to apply their own experience and best judgement to a situation, but their primary objective is to objectively "call 'em like they see 'em." No one should have an issue with that.

Interpretation of the law is for Judges. We are damn lucky to live in a country where every one of these situations can be brought before a judge chosen by "we, the people." We elect them and pay them to apply common sense to such situations. It is unfortunate that one of us may end up in front of the judge for something that seems to be a blatant mistake, but it's also *highly likely* that the judge is going to throw this ticket right in the dumpster.

Rolling right along...

njkayaker

Their "own experience and best judgement" has to have a rather close correlation with the law. Otherwise, it's a problem. And, at times, the call may not be made "objectively".

You should have no "issue" with people viewing the actions of police with a critical eye or people having an interest in improving the accuracy of tickets being issued.

If you get involved in the legal system, you've lost even if you "win" the case in the end.

blacknbluebikes 

Your points are valid, but is there another nation with a better system to which you'll be moving?

joejack951

Believe me, I eagerly await the day when police "objectively" assess a situation. "Objectively" there is no way I could have safely shared that lane with any motor vehicle, save for perhaps a motorcycle. I have been pulled over by the police for riding my bike more times than I can remember. Never once was I approached with an objective remark about why they pulled me over.

Have you ever had to deal with the police when riding your bike?

What part of "a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane" needs interpretation when the officer's vehicle is almost 6.5' feet wide without mirrors, a cyclist is at least 2 feet wide and by law is to be passed at no less than 3 feet, and the lane is only 9 feet wide? The two vehicles don't even physically fit in the lane together!

Say what? The last thing I want is anyone involved with "the law" applying their "common sense" to the situation. If you've never witnessed the result of "common sense" being applied in the court room, go search for my first thread (back in 2007) when I lost my initial court case fighting a ticket for the same thing. I got the "common sense" ruling that I was a jackass for riding in the middle of the lane. Guilty as charged, fine raised*, court dismissed.

*Because my fine was raised over $100 I was able to appeal the case to a higher court where it was later (almost a year after my ticket) thrown out without a trial.

njkayaker

Bizarro logic.

That there might be places that have it worse is no reason not to try to improve the situation where you live.

If it's a blatant mistake, why is it OK that the cop made it?

blacknbluebikes 

Oh my. Sorry that I might have suggested that the majority of people working in legal justice are legit and trying to do a good job. I can tell by the conviction (pun intended) in the comments that, clearly, you guys are much more experienced than I with the cops and the courtrooms. Not sure why you are, but I'll very gladly cede the point. Wasn't trying to diminish what is clearly a stupid error and a significant inconvenience to you. I'm not defending the cop. Nor do I have any idea if all the facts are presented here. But I do believe your experience is the exception, not the rule. My only point was that "at least we have a system to deal with these things when they go awry and right them." It's great to take action to change a problem like this. Most people I see, sadly, say a lot and do very little. Some people just love to hate our system of government and all the difficulties that come along with it. Fight for change? BY ALL LEGITIMATE MEANS. But too few people get involved or give money to special interest groups like Bike New York or New Jersey Bike and Walk Coalition or the East Coast Greenway Alliance. They just sit back and b!tich. I'm out of patience for that.

I'm gladly the first one to say "question authority." I'm also a "don't tread on me" libertarian. I'm a fan of checks, balances and transparency. But in, oh, maybe twelve thousand miles of road riding over the years - no, I never had any experience with a cop. Does that make me unusual? What I find unusual here is Joe's comment that "I have been pulled over by the police for riding my bike more times than I can remember." That, Joe, makes you rather interesting. What does that mean - seven, eight, a dozen times you've been pulled over? That's very outside the norm. Maybe it's where you live, maybe it's your local police chief, maybe people have been killed on that road, maybe it's a choice you're making about riding, maybe it's just the worst luck I've ever heard of... what do you think is the reason you've been pulled over so much?

RPK79

I've never had any experiences with cops either. I hope this isn't like when you say you haven't had a flat for a long time and then you get one on your next outing...

joejack951

I pay enough taxes already which go towards plenty of things that I don't care for or support. I also pay taxes for the same roads on which I want to ride and so I expect that I should be able to use them provided that I abide by the law.

I have been pulled over at least 10 times. I've never tried to recall them all, nor have I taken the effort to record them. I had one particularly bad summer where close to half of those happened. Why me, you ask? To start, I have over 4 times as many miles on the road as you. The majority of those miles are also commuting miles meaning I'm cycling during rush hour (only once have I been pulled over on a recreational ride, at 6am on a Sunday on an otherwise empty 4 lane highway). I live right off a major 4 lane highway meaning that to leave my neighborhood, I must cycle on that road. Not surprisingly, it is on that road, or the other nearby major highways that I have sometimes needed to use, that I have had almost all of my interactions with the police. Call me stupid for continuing to ride there, but those roads are the quickest way between points for me so that is why I use them (unsurprisingly, it's the same reason why lots of other drivers use them too). In the winter, they are also often the only passable roads as the rural roads become icy death traps after storms.

This latest interaction on a rural road is a bit of an oddball occurrence for even me. I have been hassled on rural roads by cops before but this is the first time one actually pulled me over. There is a bit more to the story than I have told as you assumed, but let's just say that what's been left out would not have you siding with this particular cop any more than you currently might. It's all irrelevant to the ticket (in court at least) so there's no point in dwelling on it.

-=(8)=-

I know the roads JoeJack rides on, I know the 'climate' of the area. He is going where most cyclists wouldnt ride. Thats why lots of authoritarian interest/overreach. Sort of like, lets say you, riding on the NJ Turnpike. I dont have the ghoulies to ride where he does, but respect him for it and offer my thanks for him taking advocacy to this level. The fact that he is utilitarian cycling makes this important stuff to me.

buzzman

Just curious what you mean by the statement I just bolded above.

Why I am curious is that his number of times being pulled over seems high to me. I am wondering what it is that he's doing that's causing so many interactions with cops. Over the years I've had a couple of interactions with cops- maybe 3 of any note. The worse have been in areas with very few cyclists. Delaware has a pretty active cycling community statewide and the Wilmington area is not exactly Hickville.

When I ride my bike, I ride my bike. In other words any "advocacy" or "political statements" I may make when riding are completely coincidental. When riding, "advocacy" is far removed from my primary purpose of biking from point A to point B as safely as possible.

Are you implying that JoeJack is deliberately making some kind of statement of advocacy by the manner in which he is riding?- a kind of one man Critical Mass.

Is that accurate JoeJack?