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-   -   They always keep driving (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/937925-they-always-keep-driving.html)

eofelis 03-12-14 01:52 PM

They always keep driving
 
Last fall a touring cyclist passing through this area was hit from behind and killed. This was in broad daylight on a wide open road with a mile of site distance behind him, he had a 10ft wide shoulder.

Thread from that incident.

I had been wondering if that driver had just went and gotten back behind the wheel.
(Of course she did.):notamused:

Woman charged in crash jailed on revoked license
Woman charged in crash jailed on revoked license | GJSentinel.com
(Not sure if this is behind a pay wall.)

Tuesday, March 11, 2014

A Palisade woman, who was restrained from driving after allegedly causing a fatal crash involving a bicyclist in September, was arrested Monday for suspicion of driving again in violation of a court order.

Tonie Rosales, 29, was ordered Tuesday held on $3,000 bond at the Mesa County Jail following her arrest on suspicion of violation of bail-bond conditions.

Rosales, who was free on bond on charges including vehicular homicide in the Sept. 18, 2013, crash that killed 25-year-old Eunjey Cho, was pulled over Monday afternoon in the parking lot of Taylor Elementary School in Palisade for alleged failure to use a turn signal, according to an arrest affidavit. She was arrested after a routine check of her driverís license showed it was revoked because of the September fatal crash, the affidavit said.

gecho 03-12-14 03:53 PM

And that's why I always roll my eyes when people here talk about taking away people's license for a variety of motoring infractions. Until all vehicles have some method of authenticating identity and license status, revocation of a license is a meaningless gesture to those with no respect for the law. And if they were to get into another accident while suspended, they would be more likely to flee.

Keith99 03-12-14 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gecho (Post 16572080)
And that's why I always roll my eyes when people here talk about taking away people's license for a variety of motoring infractions. Until all vehicles have some method of authenticating identity and license status, revocation of a license is a meaningless gesture to those with no respect for the law. And if they were to get into another accident while suspended, they would be more likely to flee.

I'm glad you put that part in. There are lots of people who do have enough respect for the law to not drive with a suspended license. Unfortunately it seems to be that those are the ones less likely to get a license suspended in the first place. (and are more apt to do the hit and run, first time, second or any thereafter).

eofelis 03-12-14 04:43 PM

Several years ago a neighbor of mine backed his car into my parked car (smashed in my car's door) in an apt complex we lived in. I happened to see him do it. I went out to my car. He quickly parked his car and ran into his apt. I called the PD, they came out. Said they could not cite him as he was not in his car anymore but they knew he was drunk. He also had a revoked license (habitual offender). His car was registered to his LLC and he was specifically excluded as a driver (even though he drove it all the time), told to me by the ins co the car had a policy with, told me they could do nothing. This guy wasn't a total slob looking person, the car was a Mercedes, he was a real estate agent in town (he was living in a tiny apt). Later he did offer me cash ($2k to fix my 16yo car) and I did take it as I figured I wouldn't get anything else.

The main point here is that he kept driving every day after that and I'm pretty sure he didn't have a license, or meaningful insurance, or stopped drinking, any time soon after he hit my car. We've both since moved and I don't know if he's in town any more.

Chris516 03-12-14 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eofelis (Post 16571752)
Last fall a touring cyclist passing through this area was hit from behind and killed. This was in broad daylight on a wide open road with a mile of site distance behind him, he had a 10ft wide shoulder.

Thread from that incident.

I had been wondering if that driver had just went and gotten back behind the wheel.
(Of course she did.):notamused:

Woman charged in crash jailed on revoked license
Woman charged in crash jailed on revoked license | GJSentinel.com
(Not sure if this is behind a pay wall.)

Tuesday, March 11, 2014

A Palisade woman, who was restrained from driving after allegedly causing a fatal crash involving a bicyclist in September, was arrested Monday for suspicion of driving again in violation of a court order.

Tonie Rosales, 29, was ordered Tuesday held on $3,000 bond at the Mesa County Jail following her arrest on suspicion of violation of bail-bond conditions.

Rosales, who was free on bond on charges including vehicular homicide in the Sept. 18, 2013, crash that killed 25-year-old Eunjey Cho, was pulled over Monday afternoon in the parking lot of Taylor Elementary School in Palisade for alleged failure to use a turn signal, according to an arrest affidavit. She was arrested after a routine check of her driver’s license showed it was revoked because of the September fatal crash, the affidavit said.

$3k is a pittance for a bond!!

B. Carfree 03-12-14 11:34 PM

When a motorist's license is suspended, it would be nice if any car s/he owns were also impounded. It's not going to happen, but it would be nice.

On a related note, I have an acquaintance who lost his license because of multiple drunk driving convictions. He decided to sober up and also quit driving. He now regularly rides 1000-2000 miles per month and is much happier than he was as a drunk motorist. I guess there really are some people, or at least one, who will do what is expected of them when they lose their license.

eofelis 03-13-14 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16573227)

On a related note, I have an acquaintance who lost his license because of multiple drunk driving convictions. He decided to sober up and also quit driving. He now regularly rides 1000-2000 miles per month and is much happier than he was as a drunk motorist. I guess there really are some people, or at least one, who will do what is expected of them when they lose their license.

I have a friend in town here who is car-free, a 40ish man. He says he just doesn't like to drive at all. He rides a bike all over town or sometimes catches rides from his gf or other friends. He does like to drink sometimes but we never to worry about him getting behind the wheel.

mconlonx 03-13-14 09:33 AM

failure to use a turn signal,

I don't buy that cops pulled her over just for that; be more willing to bet they recognized her and used this as an excuse to check her license. I hate it when cops use something bogus like this or "brake/headlight out" as a pretense to do some fishing, but in this particular case, I really don't care and stop just shy of applauding them.

Cars involved in a death or injury should be impounded as evidence until the case is decided. This will never happen, of course, but it should...

mconlonx 03-13-14 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16573227)
On a related note, I have an acquaintance who lost his license because of multiple drunk driving convictions. He decided to sober up and also quit driving. He now regularly rides 1000-2000 miles per month and is much happier than he was as a drunk motorist. I guess there really are some people, or at least one, who will do what is expected of them when they lose their license.

I got busted DWI, license suspended for 225 days. I think I drove twice during that time, once to pick up my son and another time to move the car off the road during a snow emergency. But otherwise obeyed the suspension. It really got me into bike commuting. An excellent advocacy technique might be to actively loan bikes to drunks on suspension...

B. Carfree 03-13-14 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mconlonx (Post 16574055)
failure to use a turn signal,

I don't buy that cops pulled her over just for that; be more willing to bet they recognized her and used this as an excuse to check her license. I hate it when cops use something bogus like this or "brake/headlight out" as a pretense to do some fishing, but in this particular case, I really don't care and stop just shy of applauding them.

Cars involved in a death or injury should be impounded as evidence until the case is decided. This will never happen, of course, but it should...

Many years ago, I was coming home from a company gathering in another part of the state. I was driving a beat-up old pick-up and had a decidedly furry look, since it was winter and the fur keeps me warm while riding. As I passed through a notorious methamphetamine production/distribution community (Mapleton, OR), a state trooper pulled the fastest U-turn I have ever seen to get behind me. Two miles later he pulled me over. He initially told me he pulled me over because my bumper was partially obscuring my registration sticker (true enough, depending on one's definition of partial). After we chatted for a few minutes, he told me he really pulled me over because the vehicle I was driving was stereotypical of the local tweakers and he wanted to look for drugs. (By this time he had realized he was talking to a T-totaler.)

In my opinion, it's all good. I actually want my troopers to do lots of traffic stops. Being pulled over, even for slightly dubious causes, is the price of admission to motorized transportation.

yugyug 03-14-14 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mconlonx (Post 16574055)
failure to use a turn signal,

I don't buy that cops pulled her over just for that; be more willing to bet they recognized her and used this as an excuse to check her license. I hate it when cops use something bogus like this or "brake/headlight out" as a pretense to do some fishing, but in this particular case, I really don't care and stop just shy of applauding them.

At least where I live, cop cars have automatic plate recognition cameras connected to databases. If her license was connected to her plate number as the owner, the software would have alerted the cops to her without them even doing anything.

rydabent 03-14-14 07:11 AM

Drivers that have their license taken away if caught driving should be put in a tent city like they have in AZ for about a year. In addition to that their car should be taken away and sold by the city or county.

dynodonn 03-14-14 07:42 AM

I'm not surprised that motorists keep driving, since roughly 400, 000 tickets a year are issued, by our state's highway patrol alone, for motorists driving unlicensed or on a suspended/revoked license. Recently, a major collision occurred in my locale, and with the two motorists involved, both were driving on suspended licenses.

genec 03-14-14 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rydabent (Post 16576786)
Drivers that have their license taken away if caught driving should be put in a tent city like they have in AZ for about a year. In addition to that their car should be taken away and sold by the city or county.

A bit extreme. How about if a car is just made undriveable for the period of license suspension... such with a wheel boot.

Of course if the license is revoked, then perhaps the car should also be taken away.

Looigi 03-14-14 08:10 AM

FWIW: Having my license suspended was what got me back into cycling in graduate school. It was suspended for points accumulated due to overly exuberant motorcycle riding. I didn't have a car.

B. Carfree 03-14-14 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynodonn (Post 16576853)
I'm not surprised that motorists keep driving, since roughly 400, 000 tickets a year are issued, by our state's highway patrol alone, for motorists driving unlicensed or on a suspended/revoked license. Recently, a major collision occurred in my locale, and with the two motorists involved, both were driving on suspended licenses.

We would have unlicensed motorists colliding with each other, but my local law enforcement agencies don't do enough traffic enforcement (or much of anything else, for that matter), so the folks who would have lost their licenses for points and/or DUII still mostly have them. We do, however, have many instances of drunk drivers colliding with each other. My dark side (most of me) always roots for fatalities in these collisions, but the air bags and seat belts mostly do their jobs.

howsteepisit 03-14-14 11:57 AM

Also, since these people who drive on suspended/revoked/expired licenses are committing a crime, their insurance, if they even have any, is not going to pay for damages and most if not all policies exclude coverage occurring in the omission of a crime( I think this opinion is based on several years ago information from an unknown source). However, Dynodonn's post points out the magnitude of this problem, and the need for some kind of solution not only for the protection of vulnerable users like cyclists but also every day drivers who do try to follow the laws. I suppose cutting off a hand is too severe, and then we's end up supporting them on welfare, but something needs to be done.

Mvcrash 03-14-14 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eofelis (Post 16572188)
Several years ago a neighbor of mine backed his car into my parked car (smashed in my car's door) in an apt complex we lived in. I happened to see him do it. I went out to my car. He quickly parked his car and ran into his apt. I called the PD, they came out. Said they could not cite him as he was not in his car anymore but they knew he was drunk. He also had a revoked license (habitual offender). His car was registered to his LLC and he was specifically excluded as a driver (even though he drove it all the time), told to me by the ins co the car had a policy with, told me they could do nothing. This guy wasn't a total slob looking person, the car was a Mercedes, he was a real estate agent in town (he was living in a tiny apt). Later he did offer me cash ($2k to fix my 16yo car) and I did take it as I figured I wouldn't get anything else.

The main point here is that he kept driving every day after that and I'm pretty sure he didn't have a license, or meaningful insurance, or stopped drinking, any time soon after he hit my car. We've both since moved and I don't know if he's in town any more.

The cops were full of crap. Leaving the Scene of an Accident is quite serious and one of the offenses that they don't need to witness to enforce. The least that should have happend is they offered you the opportunity to sign the complaint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mconlonx (Post 16574055)
failure to use a turn signal,

I don't buy that cops pulled her over just for that; be more willing to bet they recognized her and used this as an excuse to check her license. I hate it when cops use something bogus like this or "brake/headlight out" as a pretense to do some fishing, but in this particular case, I really don't care and stop just shy of applauding them.

Cars involved in a death or injury should be impounded as evidence until the case is decided. This will never happen, of course, but it should...

We seize defendants cars all them all the time. An issue arises if their is a lien on the car. I drove a very famous Rock Stars car after we seized if because he was DWI and hit and injured someone. Part of his plea agreement was concerts where the money went to charities involved in DWI prevention.

Being a little hypocritcal with the car stop I think. You don't want the cops using minor traffic offenses to stop folks....unless you like the result. There are so many MV violations that most drivers don't really know more than 10%. I always like to ask folks what the speed limit is while driving over a sidewalk into a parking lot or if it is legal to exit a car into a traffic lane. Most don't know the answers and don't like them when they find out the answer (***as always in NJ***4mph and no, you have to exit onto the sidewalk).

mconlonx 03-14-14 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mvcrash (Post 16577694)
Being a little hypocritcal with the car stop I think. You don't want the cops using minor traffic offenses to stop folks....unless you like the result. There are so many MV violations that most drivers don't really know more than 10%. I always like to ask folks what the speed limit is while driving over a sidewalk into a parking lot or if it is legal to exit a car into a traffic lane. Most don't know the answers and don't like them when they find out the answer (***as always in NJ***4mph and no, you have to exit onto the sidewalk).

Slightly hypocritical, sure. Who isn't? B. Carfree posted an example which I'd call unlawful detention, especially when the cop told him his actual motives. Same thing happened with me and a buddy when we got pulled over for 3mph over the speed limit at 1am on a Saturday night. We were both sober and when confronted about why we were pulled over for such a paltry offense, officer freely admitted they were fishing for drunks.

There are so many different laws in effect, someone is bound to do something which allows a stop. And when that stop is not for the actual reasons, we're getting into murky ethical territory.

Especially when cops start fishing for info -- people sworn to uphold the constitution knowingly trying to trick people into volunteering to give up rights enumerated as inviolable in the same document.

lasauge 03-14-14 08:46 PM

There was an article a while back in the Atlantic Cities that touched on this, as they pointed out, a big part of the problem is that in much of the US there's no practical* alternative to driving. Someone with a suspended/revoked license may have to pick between respecting the sentence imposed on them by the law (and risk further punishment) and be able to work, shop for food, meet family commitments, etc. Revoking/suspensing drivers licenses might serve as a deterrent to dangerous driving (at least for someone who's aware that they're just one infraction away from that), but it shouldn't be surprising that taking someone's license away isn't very effective when used as a penalty.

*- bike commuting is great, but let's be honest, it's not an immediately practical option for someone who lives 30 miles from work, doesn't own a bike, and hasn't ridden a bicycle for decades at the time they lose their drivers license.

dynodonn 03-15-14 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16577608)
We would have unlicensed motorists colliding with each other, but my local law enforcement agencies don't do enough traffic enforcement (or much of anything else, for that matter), so the folks who would have lost their licenses for points and/or DUII still mostly have them. We do, however, have many instances of drunk drivers colliding with each other. My dark side (most of me) always roots for fatalities in these collisions, but the air bags and seat belts mostly do their jobs.

......and why of recent that non motorized road users have been made even more vulnerable, since a larger share of motorists have now become even more mentally and physically disconnected from the dangers of being in a collision.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N26WJvdajXw

wphamilton 03-15-14 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mvcrash (Post 16577694)
The cops were full of crap. Leaving the Scene of an Accident is quite serious and one of the offenses that they don't need to witness to enforce. The least that should have happend is they offered you the opportunity to sign the complaint.
....


That's really good to know. Thanks for pointing this out.

Let me ask you a question. If I'm trying to make a criminal complaint and the cop is blowing it off for some bogus reason, what is the most effective way to go about insisting?

Mvcrash 03-16-14 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wphamilton (Post 16579912)
That's really good to know. Thanks for pointing this out.

Let me ask you a question. If I'm trying to make a criminal complaint and the cop is blowing it off for some bogus reason, what is the most effective way to go about insisting?

Ask to see a boss and if that fails, see the local prosecutor. (In NJ)

WebFootFreak 03-16-14 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B. Carfree (Post 16576265)
Many years ago, I was coming home from a company gathering in another part of the state. I was driving a beat-up old pick-up and had a decidedly furry look, since it was winter and the fur keeps me warm while riding. As I passed through a notorious methamphetamine production/distribution community (Mapleton, OR), a state trooper pulled the fastest U-turn I have ever seen to get behind me. Two miles later he pulled me over. He initially told me he pulled me over because my bumper was partially obscuring my registration sticker (true enough, depending on one's definition of partial). After we chatted for a few minutes, he told me he really pulled me over because the vehicle I was driving was stereotypical of the local tweakers and he wanted to look for drugs. (By this time he had realized he was talking to a T-totaler.)

In my opinion, it's all good. I actually want my troopers to do lots of traffic stops. Being pulled over, even for slightly dubious causes, is the price of admission to motorized transportation.

I had just moved back to the Memphis area and a good friend of mine was watching my daughter while I went on a job interview. I got pulled over on the way back to pick her up for failure to signal. Problem is... I always signal. I'm rather OCD about it. I have a friend in the dept, and he told me later that I got pulled for driving a beat up s10 blazer with out of state tags through one of the nicer neighborhoods. They gave me a heck of a hard time too...

mconlonx 03-16-14 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebFootFreak (Post 16581921)
I had just moved back to the Memphis area and a good friend of mine was watching my daughter while I went on a job interview. I got pulled over on the way back to pick her up for failure to signal. Problem is... I always signal. I'm rather OCD about it. I have a friend in the dept, and he told me later that I got pulled for driving a beat up s10 blazer with out of state tags through one of the nicer neighborhoods. They gave me a heck of a hard time too...

The other thing about getting pulled over for no real appropriate cause is that it is definitely a class thing. If you can't afford a new car, you will get pulled over on a more regular basis on shaky reasons. Class/income profiling. As long as you can afford a newer car, you'll rarely be hassled; drive an obviously used car and you become more of a target.

Just another awesome reason to ride bikes more. Less reasons to have interaction with LEO.


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