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-   -   What kind of "hook" is this? (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/938126-what-kind-hook.html)

Matariki 03-13-14 06:05 PM

What kind of "hook" is this?
 
I take the lane at the light, then quickly move to the left lane because I am turning left and if I don't move over early, I have to deal with cars passing on my left. So going downhill at slightly above the speed limit (25 mph) thinking that the van passing me on the right is going straight, and then ...


FBinNY 03-13-14 06:31 PM

It's a left hook. Mirror image of the typical right hook.

However, it's slightly different than the classic right hook because you're not planning to go straight, and the driver knows it (either by signal or your lane position). People do that all the time up here, and I prefer to call the maneuver a "flanking left" (or right).

I don't get worked up about these because they're very different than being cut off when going straight. As I said, it's common maneuver where I normally ride. Fact is, I do the same turning a wide left to the right of a left turning car, or sometimes turning a narrow inside left at a very busy intersection using the car to my right as a stalking horse to shield from oncoming traffic.

BYW- it's nice to see that they still have "suicide" (aka chicken) lanes in some places. They got rid of all (or nearly all) of them up here because drivers drove them like the nicknames imply.

Dave Cutter 03-13-14 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16575698)
...... you're not planning to go straight, and the driver knows it (either by signal or your lane position). ...
I don't get worked up about these because they're very different than being cut off when going straight......

I agree. Actually... I've been cut off enough times when I was going straight I've almost come to expect it. Not that I haven't had the bee-gee-bees scared out of me a few times... I have. The worst scare was from my own stupid mistake.

It's all part of cycling... and I wouldn't wish it to be any other way. I love cycling.

Lanovran 03-13-14 06:44 PM

Yeah, that was a classic "dumb**** driver" move. I had someone do something similar to me this afternoon, though we were both driving cars at the time. Some people - scratch that...many people - are just oblivious to the world around them.

genec 03-13-14 06:56 PM

The "I must dominate the road" hook that is clearly part of being treated as a driver of a vehicle when you are acting like one.

howsteepisit 03-13-14 07:21 PM

There seems to be a common belief among many drivers that they must pass all slower moving things right now. This is evidence of that. But really did not look all that threatening to me. Maybe you had to be there.

catonec 03-13-14 08:30 PM

that actually seemed as if the driver was well aware of you and just needed to get in front and make a turn. it looked fairly harmless and courteous. I wouldnt get my panties in bunch over that.

FBinNY 03-13-14 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catonec (Post 16576013)
that actually seemed as if the driver was well aware of you and just needed to get in front and make a turn. it looked fairly harmless and courteous. I wouldnt get my panties in bunch over that.

+1, definitely a "no harm, no foul" situation. That's unless the OP had to hard brake to accommodate it, though it doesn't appear to be the case.

unterhausen 03-13-14 09:48 PM

camera makes it look a lot more benign than it actually is. This is typical mindless driving, but that doesn't really make it less dangerous

kickstart 03-13-14 10:36 PM

I agree with the others, not the most courteous maneuver, but basically a non event and expected.


If you think its bad on a bike, try driving a semi. Nobody and I mean nobody wants to be behind a truck. If I don't have to take evasive action or brake hard I don't worry about it.

yugyug 03-14-14 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 16575828)
There seems to be a common belief among many drivers that they must pass all slower moving things right now.

Maybe not all slower things - I think horse trailers and maybe tractors too get a deserved by disproportionate amount of respect from car drivers.

genec 03-14-14 07:31 AM

Regardless of how harmless it looked... it was wrong... flat out wrong.

The driver made a left turn by swooping from the right lane rather than getting into the left turn lane and merging behind the cyclist. In fact the motorist's left rear tires barely even entered the left turn lane...

This was a left turn from a right lane and completely wrong.

That the cyclist suffered no injury is NOT the baseline for what motorists can "get away with."

Looigi 03-14-14 08:27 AM

That's a bit heinous. Not that it's an excuse, but you did likely travel in excess of the legal distance in the central turning lane. Just sayin'...

Chicago Al 03-14-14 09:42 AM

A key part of safe driving or cycling is making your intentions clear to other drivers/cyclists. You entered the 'turn' lane very early, in fact before it was a turn lane, while it was still an oncoming lane. There's no ambiguity about that, you crossed the double yellow line. Obviously there was no oncoming traffic, so it was 'safe,' but what this may have indicated to other drivers was that you intended to make a left as soon as possible, in this case into that wide driveway of an office park or development. I think you'd make the same assumption if a car had done the same thing...if you didn't also assume that the driver was drunk or a jerk.

I'm not saying the driver who passed you made a good choice, but it certainly doesn't look like the driver intended to endanger you.

genec 03-14-14 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicago Al (Post 16577223)
A key part of safe driving or cycling is making your intentions clear to other drivers/cyclists. You entered the 'turn' lane very early, in fact before it was a turn lane, while it was still an oncoming lane. There's no ambiguity about that, you crossed the double yellow line. Obviously there was no oncoming traffic, so it was 'safe,' but what this may have indicated to other drivers was that you intended to make a left as soon as possible, in this case into that wide driveway of an office park or development. I think you'd make the same assumption if a car had done the same thing...if you didn't also assume that the driver was drunk or a jerk.

I'm not saying the driver who passed you made a good choice, but it certainly doesn't look like the driver intended to endanger you.

Regardless of the cyclist's move, the intent was to make a left turn. The motorist made no move into the left turn lane at any time, thus their intent was never clear.

Let's not "blame the victim" for their less than perfect move, while forgetting the motorist for their very obvious very bad move. I am reminded of the parable of removing the splinter from an eye while blinded by a plank in one's own eye.

Indeed, the cyclist entered the left turn lane early... the motorist NEVER entered the left turn lane.

The cyclist is supposed to return to the far right hand side of the road or at least to a position "taking the lane" after the left turn, the motorist's move cut off the cyclist from doing so. CLEARLY the motorist was at much more fault than the cyclist.

FBinNY 03-14-14 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16577862)
.... CLEARLY the motorist was at much more fault than the cyclist.

While the best one can say about the motorist is that he was rude, this remains a "no harm, no foul" situation. The motorist correctly (not properly) calculated that he could make his left forward and wide of the cyclist. No nice, but didn't cause an accident, so not miscalculated either.

It's hard enough to assign fault when there is an accident, let's not try to assign fault in a non event.

IMO if this had happened anywhere within 50 miles of NYC, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but maybe down in Hillsboro folks expect more courtesy.

genec 03-14-14 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16577872)
While the best one can say about the motorist is that he was rude, this remains a "no harm, no foul" situation. The motorist correctly (not properly) calculated that he could make his left forward and wide of the cyclist. No nice, but didn't cause an accident, so not miscalculated either.

It's hard enough to assign fault when there is an accident, let's not try to assign fault in a non event.

IMO if this had happened anywhere within 50 miles of NYC, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but maybe down in Hillsboro folks expect more courtesy.

Why didn't the motorist ever enter the left turn lane? What is the reasoning behind that?

italktocats 03-14-14 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16577884)
Why didn't the motorist ever enter the left turn lane? What is the reasoning behind that?

there was a cyclist, therefore; **** all the rules and blast right past him!





and i was more worried about the 'salmon-lane'

FBinNY 03-14-14 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16577884)
Why didn't the motorist ever enter the left turn lane? What is the reasoning behind that?

I don't know what his thinking was, but I expect that he was combining a pass (on the adjacent lane) and the left, so the merge left in front of the cyclist and the left turn was a single maneuver. I didn't say it was polite, but I don't know of any law that specifies how much time one need to spend between moving over and actually turning.

Also laws vary by state, but while the vehicle in the suicide lane must turn left, drivers may not be obligated to move into that lane before turning. That's the case here in NY where a driver in a marked left turn lane MUST turn left, drivers in umarked laned may turn left if/when safe to do so.

In my first post answering the question (no.1 or 2) I called this a "flanking left" which is very common here, though it really wasn't since the motorist was ahead of the cyclist.

It may be rude, and may even be illegal, but there's no question of fault, since there's no consequence to be at fault over.

howsteepisit 03-14-14 01:15 PM

Seems to me that if I spent just a few minutes worrying about the right or wrong of every traffic violation I see daily, I'd easily fill up both my days and nights.

ursle 03-14-14 01:23 PM

Looks to me like the bicyclist took the left turning lane way to soon, blocking any traffic behind and was simply passed by another road vehicle, luckily there was no injury or any police nearby to issue a ticket for obstructing traffic, and luckily the van had an easy time getting around the cyclist and on it's way.

All my rides are clockwise, no left turns;)

02Giant 03-14-14 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanovran (Post 16575735)
Yeah, that was a classic "dumb**** driver" move. I had someone do something similar to me this afternoon, though we were both driving cars at the time. Some people - scratch that...many people - are just oblivious to the world around them.

They aren't oblivious, they are only concerned about themselves, they will not be inconvenienced by anyone if they can help it.

02Giant 03-14-14 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16576829)
Regardless of how harmless it looked... it was wrong... flat out wrong.

The driver made a left turn by swooping from the right lane rather than getting into the left turn lane and merging behind the cyclist. In fact the motorist's left rear tires barely even entered the left turn lane...

This was a left turn from a right lane and completely wrong.

That the cyclist suffered no injury is NOT the baseline for what motorists can "get away with."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Looigi (Post 16576980)
That's a bit heinous. Not that it's an excuse, but you did likely travel in excess of the legal distance in the central turning lane. Just sayin'...

True and true...

02Giant 03-14-14 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16577884)
Why didn't the motorist ever enter the left turn lane? What is the reasoning behind that?

IMO, they figured they would clip the bike if they did.

kickstart 03-14-14 02:14 PM

The OPs video shows that he did an improper lane change into an opposing turn lane, continued to travel in a two way turn lane without making a turn until it became a turn lane at the next intersection. The van drivers turn was clearly illegal, but the cyclist did set a trap by disregarding proper lane discipline and use.


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