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Old 03-17-14, 10:58 AM   #26
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Much, much less.
But still probably a good amount. When I used to bike commute, I would despair endlessly about the amount of terrible, entitled drivers out there. Now that I telecommute and most of my rides are purely recreational, I noticed a severe drop off of said drivers in my memory and now notice almost exclusively bad cyclists - aka red light runners, wrong way riders that seem to have figured everything else out (helmet, expensive bike & kit, etc but not knowing road rules) and so on. I think perspective has everything to do with threads like this getting started; perhaps some of the negative attitude that some in the bike advocacy community have adopted comes from having a commuter/utilitarian-centric perspective. Not that I blame them, but changing my perspective over time has led me to agree with those that argue that the same inconsiderate cyclist is probably also an inconsiderate driver and vice-versa.
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Old 03-17-14, 12:22 PM   #27
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Funny, I've been riding for 45 years, and I've never had someone force me to do something stupid or dangerous, I manage to do that all on my own.

Guess we can't all be perfect.
So you are absolving motorists' of any and all responsibility in causing you to do something that isn't smart.
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Probably if you ask some motorists, they will probably claim they are responding to hazards created by cyclists. We have plenty of "those" cyclists here, and even more of "those" motorists. Maybe there's something those of us who has the superpower of common sense needs to know.
But the question by the OP was about cyclists' creating their own hazards. Some cyclists' may create their own hazards on the road by poor riding on the road. BUT, Since there are more motorists' on the road, the propensity is that a motorist is creating the hazard regardless of how bad the cyclist is riding.
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Old 03-17-14, 12:29 PM   #28
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So you are absolving motorists' of any and all responsibility in causing you to do something that isn't smart.

But the question by the OP was about cyclists' creating their own hazards. Some cyclists' may create their own hazards on the road by poor riding on the road. BUT, Since there are more motorists' on the road, the propensity is that a motorist is creating the hazard regardless of how bad the cyclist is riding.
I'm like Kickstart, with a shy of 50 year cycling career with few motorist issues. I don't absolve motorists if/when they do dumb things, not do I absolve cyclists. I have no problem sharing roads with motor vehicles and consider the number of dangerous motorists to be relatively small and manageable. It is big enough that we need to stay alert and ride defensively, but that's far short of believing that there's serious danger out there.

As I said in my first post, idiots are idiots regardless of what they ride or drive.
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Old 03-17-14, 01:29 PM   #29
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I'm like Kickstart, with a shy of 50 year cycling career with few motorist issues. I don't absolve motorists if/when they do dumb things, not do I absolve cyclists. I have no problem sharing roads with motor vehicles and consider the number of dangerous motorists to be relatively small and manageable. It is big enough that we need to stay alert and ride defensively, but that's far short of believing that there's serious danger out there.

As I said in my first post, idiots are idiots regardless of what they ride or drive.
That's how I see it to, I don't absolve or condemn bad behaviour because of ones choice of transportation, just the act itself. There's good and bad in all groups with it mostly being good, I see no value in being prejudicial against any one group.
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Old 03-17-14, 01:34 PM   #30
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Shucks, if we cannot be prejudicial 90% of the posts in A&S would vanish and it would become a ghost forum.

(For those of you who rarely perceive humor, its a joke)
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Old 03-17-14, 02:50 PM   #31
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So far, we have a lot of great discussion going. Between the news coverage of cycling related issues (including some threads that start here), many cyclists in my area, and many motorists in the same area, I am not exactly seeing many favors being done for anybody. Even when the local news stations covered the stink over a road they closed to bicycles (which needed to be done, but also a trail needs to appear through there), the coverage made cyclists look arrogant and self centered. Since cycling safely in traffic seems to be a superpower at times, I wonder if we may need to have some education on how to do so, as well as to figure out some of the other issues (such as motorists failing to see and/or expect bicycle traffic). All I know is there is a breakdown somewhere, but am unsure exactly what the bust is.
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Old 03-17-14, 04:00 PM   #32
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Idiots are idiots no matter how many wheels they have under them.

I'm not one who stops and waits for lights to turn green, but go crazy watching cyclists burn through reds with no concern about cross traffic. I still have a scar on my left arm from when I stopped at a red (4 lane busy highway) and was hit from behind by a cyclist planning to dash across without stopping.
Reminds me of the problem with basically responsible group rides. 90% of the time someone near the front calls out either rolling or stopping. But the other 10% could get interesting, the worst was hearing one of each at about the same time. No one in front of me I would roll, but what do you do if there is a rider in front or you (who may stop) and one behind (who may roll)?
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Old 03-17-14, 04:05 PM   #33
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Because carbon riding roadies always stop at red lights and wait patiently, never break the 15mph posted down the hill in the cemetery, or the 10mph posted MUPs. Uh-huh.
Damn you had to include those 10 MPH posted MUPs.

My road bike is Carbon Fiber and I do stop at red lights, never ride in a cemetery but getting down below 10 MPH can be a problem. (I do tend to avoid any MUP where that is a reasonable speed limit).
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Old 03-17-14, 04:05 PM   #34
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Reminds me of the problem with basically responsible group rides. 90% of the time someone near the front calls out either rolling or stopping. But the other 10% could get interesting, the worst was hearing one of each at about the same time. No one in front of me I would roll, but what do you do if there is a rider in front or you (who may stop) and one behind (who may roll)?
There was (still is) a weekly pickup ride in my area. I used to do it sometimes 35-40 years ago or so. I stopped because of the danger. the ride would often be 30-40 riders in a sloppy peloton. They'd roll through red lights with impunity if traffic permitted.

The problem is that the traffic often permitted for the front of the pack, but not always for the back or stragglers. There was a regular pattern of serious accidents, and many of the regulars were early adopters of helmets, and would regale us with stories of how they saved their life. I was an early adopter of not riding with them anymore.
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Old 03-17-14, 05:14 PM   #35
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Whenever I'm some place where cyclists are used to being on the roads and drivers are used to dealing with them, I am mildly amazed at how well it works most of the time. Add in pedestrians, skaters, commercial vehicles, buses and taxis...

Things which dumbfound me is how few accidents there actually are, how few of them involve a cyclist. Places I've experienced this include Cambridge MA and SF CA. DC has improved in just a few years.

For all the traffic, for all the bone-headed moves on all sides, truly an everyday miracle more people don't get gnashed by traffic.
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Old 03-17-14, 05:55 PM   #36
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Whenever I'm some place where cyclists are used to being on the roads and drivers are used to dealing with them, I am mildly amazed at how well it works most of the time. Add in pedestrians, skaters, commercial vehicles, buses and taxis...

Things which dumbfound me is how few accidents there actually are, how few of them involve a cyclist. Places I've experienced this include Cambridge MA and SF CA. DC has improved in just a few years.

For all the traffic, for all the bone-headed moves on all sides, truly an everyday miracle more people don't get gnashed by traffic.
I agree. Human reflexes are an amazing thing. Despite lot's of error on all sides there's plenty of forgiveness in the system.
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Old 03-17-14, 06:33 PM   #37
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I "Burn around" when I ride, except when encountering cars, then I follow the rules.
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Old 03-22-14, 01:51 PM   #38
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There was (still is) a weekly pickup ride in my area. I used to do it sometimes 35-40 years ago or so. I stopped because of the danger. the ride would often be 30-40 riders in a sloppy peloton. They'd roll through red lights with impunity if traffic permitted.

The problem is that the traffic often permitted for the front of the pack, but not always for the back or stragglers. There was a regular pattern of serious accidents, and many of the regulars were early adopters of helmets, and would regale us with stories of how they saved their life. I was an early adopter of not riding with them anymore.

If I hadn't seen similar behavior (without so many accidents), I'd wonder if this could be true, but I've seen it too. I used to go on some group rides in Philadelphia where riders regularly rode through a stop sign at the bottom of a hill. I finally asked some one; his explanation was that he hadn't expected the stop sign and was going too fast. That was when I noticed it was always different riders - after they ran the sign once, they slowed down on the hill.

(I was an earlier adopter of keeping my braking distance shorter than my sight lines, especially in areas with traffic and intersections).

For the general topic, I think hostile motorists create more hazards than bicyclists ever will. I stop at stop signs, use lights at night etc. I find there are always a few motorists that are angry that bicyclists are allowed to use the road at all, and it has nothing to do with bicyclists slow speed or breaking laws. Congested traffic slowed everyone to 10 mph. Every time we stopped at red lights, motorists in the other lane (2 lanes each way) were telling me (profanely) that I was not allowed to use the road and suggested impossible anatomical acts. In no way did my use of the right lane affect her use of the left lane, or the timing of the lights.

I'm not real sympathetic to motorist complains.
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Old 03-22-14, 02:03 PM   #39
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..

For the general topic, I think hostile motorists create more hazards than bicyclists ever will....
I think it's a mistake to draw this kind of comparison. Yes there are some nasty motorists out there (IME- far fewer than implied here on BF, but maybe folks in NY area are kinder and more patient than anywhere else), but whining about them won't do anything.

We need to focus on what we can control, which is ourselves. Based on 45 years experience, bicycle accidents aren't randomly distributed. They can and do happen to the best and most cautious riders, but other than what we might call a bcakground level, some riders have far more problems than average. Unless you believe their just unlucky, you have to accept that cyclists can significantly control their own fates.
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Old 04-09-14, 03:59 AM   #40
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I think it's a mistake to draw this kind of comparison. Yes there are some nasty motorists out there (IME- far fewer than implied here on BF, but maybe folks in NY area are kinder and more patient than anywhere else), but whining about them won't do anything.

We need to focus on what we can control, which is ourselves. Based on 45 years experience, bicycle accidents aren't randomly distributed. They can and do happen to the best and most cautious riders, but other than what we might call a bcakground level, some riders have far more problems than average. Unless you believe their just unlucky, you have to accept that cyclists can significantly control their own fates.
I see so many angry posts by certain posters that it's almost like a form of racism - automatically assuming negative traits of the other group of people based off the actions of a minuscule percentage. Just stop and think about how you like it if you were purely judged by your race or sex or wealth, it's a lazy, boorish form of thinking, regardless of your personal experiences.

As for the "but... but careless, stupid cyclists are less likely to cause deaths on the road" excuse - which is true - doesn't make it any less annoying for the drivers involved. Understand that the VAST MAJORITY of vehicle vs bicycle encounters do not end in life-altering injuries or death, but leave an indelible scar (menial or mental or both) that is often unfairly projected on other innocent road users.

In other words, you don't need to be physically hurt to carry a grudge against the 'other group' for life. That's just a wrong-headed mentality and hurts many more innocent parties than it hurts the bad guys.

For every cyclist killed, there's probably 1000 cyclists annoying motorists out there. And 5000 motorists annoying cyclists. It's a never-ending cycle.

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Old 04-09-14, 09:04 AM   #41
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I see so many angry posts by certain posters that it's almost like a form of racism - automatically assuming negative traits of the other group of people based off the actions of a minuscule percentage. Just stop and think about how you like it if you were purely judged by your race or sex or wealth, it's a lazy, boorish form of thinking, regardless of your personal experiences.
+1
Criticizing the action of a road user is entirely different from judging people because of their choice of vehicle.
There are some truely bad road users out there that we will encounter at random, but I firmly believe our experiences are largely predicated on how we treat other road users. We reap what we sow.
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Old 04-09-14, 10:20 AM   #42
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But still probably a good amount. When I used to bike commute, I would despair endlessly about the amount of terrible, entitled drivers out there. Now that I telecommute and most of my rides are purely recreational, I noticed a severe drop off of said drivers in my memory and now notice almost exclusively bad cyclists - aka red light runners, wrong way riders that seem to have figured everything else out (helmet, expensive bike & kit, etc but not knowing road rules) and so on. I think perspective has everything to do with threads like this getting started; perhaps some of the negative attitude that some in the bike advocacy community have adopted comes from having a commuter/utilitarian-centric perspective. Not that I blame them, but changing my perspective over time has led me to agree with those that argue that the same inconsiderate cyclist is probably also an inconsiderate driver and vice-versa.
I tend to agree with you, just that road users are over-represented by motor vehicle operators and likewise form a greater proportion of those creating a hazard just by being on the road.

There's just no way hazardous bicycle riders even come close to approaching the numbers of bad motor vehicle drivers, and the hazards created by scofflaw cyclists are much less severe than those created by bad drivers of motor vehicles.
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Old 04-09-14, 02:51 PM   #43
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+1
Criticizing the action of a road user is entirely different from judging people because of their choice of vehicle.
There are some truely bad road users out there that we will encounter at random, but I firmly believe our experiences are largely predicated on how we treat other road users. We reap what we sow.
So cyclist killed by hit & run motorist were just reaping what they sow.
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Old 04-09-14, 05:04 PM   #44
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So cyclist killed by hit & run motorist were just reaping what they sow.
Here,
let me help you with reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
There are some truely bad road users out there that we will encounter at random,
en·coun·ter

enˈkoun(t)ər/
verb
1. unexpectedly experience or be faced with



ran·dom

ˈrandəm/
adjective
2. odd, unusual, unexpected

I rarely get killed by hit and run drivers when i ride my bike


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but I firmly believe our experiences are largely predicated on how we treat other road users.
large·ly

ˈlärjlē/
adverb
adverb: largely
1.
to a great extent; on the whole; mostly.


pred·i·cate
verb
past tense: predicated; past participle: predicated
2. found or base something on.

Generaly when I act like a jackass, folks treat me like a jackass.

Ok, now its your turn,
Twist, misrepresent, ignore, manipulate, fabricate, and falsify to support your martyrdom.

Doesn't it ever get tiresome playing the faultless, innocent victim all the time?

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Old 04-09-14, 05:47 PM   #45
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I'm like Kickstart, with a shy of 50 year cycling career with few motorist issues. I don't absolve motorists if/when they do dumb things, not do I absolve cyclists. I have no problem sharing roads with motor vehicles and consider the number of dangerous motorists to be relatively small and manageable. It is big enough that we need to stay alert and ride defensively, but that's far short of believing that there's serious danger out there.

As I said in my first post, idiots are idiots regardless of what they ride or drive.
While, The motorists', that think the roads are just made for cars, are few and far between. That same number, of those with premeditated intention, is compounded by those who, while not having premeditated intention regarding cyclists', are abysmally ignorant about the rights of cyclists' on the road.

For me, those with premeditated intention, are far outnumbered by the 'abysmally ignorant'. So, It is the 'abysmally ignorant' that concern me more. Because, There are many more of them on the road, than those with premeditated intention.
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Old 04-09-14, 06:02 PM   #46
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....For me, those with premeditated intention, are far outnumbered by the 'abysmally ignorant'. So, It is the 'abysmally ignorant' that concern me more. Because, There are many more of them on the road, than those with premeditated intention.
I simply don't care what drivers know or think. Their state of mind doesn't matter to me. All I care about is that they go around me at a safe opportunity and do safely. It's really magic, I make passing opportunities when I can, and 99.9% of drivers do it safely and courteously.

For those who pass rudely or at inopportune times, I use my handling skill to compensate, and once they're ahead of me, it's out of sight-out of mind.

I everyone abandoned any claims of rights, and just focused on doing what's necessary, life on the roads would be so much easier.
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Old 04-09-14, 06:19 PM   #47
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If everyone abandoned any claims of rights, and just focused on doing what's necessary, life on the roads would be so much easier.
That principle is actually the foundation of all the rules and laws of the road.
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Old 04-09-14, 06:26 PM   #48
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That principle is actually the foundation of all the rules and laws of the road.
Unfortunately the concept is too simple.
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Old 04-09-14, 07:11 PM   #49
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I think we're done here. Time to move on.
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Originally Posted by Xerum 525 View Post
Now get on your cheap bike and give me a double century. You walking can of Crisco!!

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