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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by surreal View Post
    I don't want to outlaw automobiles, but I would like to see some more accountability, as GodsBassist suggests. If you kill someone while driving, and you did something illegal or unlawful when you did it, you need to be held responsible. Cars killing ppl on the sidewalk, with no citations, let alone jail time. Unbelievable.

    I'd also like to see the auto industry paying its own way. Beyond the direct and indirect oil subsidies, the outrageous Big 3 bailout, and the endless road-widening projects that occur in my neck of the woods, there ought to be some sort of tax levied on the CO2 output and the use of antifreeze, brake fluid, and other nasties that are associated with running an auto. For the record, I'd gladly pay that on my truck, and I'd be willing to pay an equitably scaled-down version for the #2 grease and chain lube I use on my bikes.
    The article states that the cost in fatalities per licensed driver is $500/yr. There are seventy to eighty times as many injured as killed by cars every year. Let's low-ball the cost of an injury to two percent as expensive as a death. That means the annual societal cost in deaths and injuries is over $25,000 per licensed driver. Are you ready to pay that? On top of that, the average cost of operating a motor vehicle is about $7000 (Of course no one ever admits that their costs even approach this number). Then there's the fact that the motorist is paying for less than half the road damage they cause.

    It's starting to be real money here. Are you sure you would be okay with motorists paying their own way without subsidies?

  2. #27
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Also, to actually comment on the OP headline, DOT estimates that the total annual miles driven is in the neighborhood of 3,000,000,000,000 (Note thats 3 trillion), 30,000/3,000,000,000,000 = 1 death /100,000,000 miles driven.

    Or

    since there are about 2,500,000 deaths per year total in the US (Census data) 30,000/2,500,000 = .012 or 1.2 per cent of all deaths are due to traffic accidents.

    thats why as a society we "accept 30000 deaths per year.
    Last edited by howsteepisit; 03-15-14 at 02:26 PM. Reason: correct the format of the math
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
    Ever wonder why we accept this slaughter? It hasn't always been this way.

    Murder Machines: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year
    Ekdog, thanks for posting! VERY interesting article.

  4. #29
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Yes, we should eliminate all subsidies of things that are paid out of public coffers and transfer all costs to the users. But thats really a topic for a political forum. Note that this includes all government functions, so if you house is on fire be ready to pay up to put out. Police, same.
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  5. #30
    Senior Member surreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post

    It's starting to be real money here. Are you sure you would be okay with motorists paying their own way without subsidies?
    To be fair, I think that the costs resulting from injury and death should be paid by those who are actually responsible for the deaths/injuries. I've yet to kill or injure anyone through an accident on the roadway. But, other than that, yes. I would be ok with the idea of motorists paying their own way, although I see the potential risk for a lot of fallout here. Obviously, we should approach that goal incrementally, so as to avoid shocking the system by pulling that switch abruptly.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    The article states that the cost in fatalities per licensed driver is $500/yr. There are seventy to eighty times as many injured as killed by cars every year. Let's low-ball the cost of an injury to two percent as expensive as a death. That means the annual societal cost in deaths and injuries is over $25,000 per licensed driver. Are you ready to pay that? On top of that, the average cost of operating a motor vehicle is about $7000 (Of course no one ever admits that their costs even approach this number). Then there's the fact that the motorist is paying for less than half the road damage they cause.

    It's starting to be real money here. Are you sure you would be okay with motorists paying their own way without subsidies?

    More red herring misinformation

    A large proportion of motor vehicle expense is discretionary as most people don't choose a vehicle strictly biased on cost.
    Item Lowest 20% of Income Earners Second 20% of Income Earners Third 20% of Income Earners Fourth 20% of Income Earners Highest 20% of Income Earners
    Total $2,856 $5,058 $7,310 $9,571 $15,198
    Purchase $987 $1,954 $2,940 $3,774 $7,442
    Gasoline/Oil $991 $1,624 $2,182 $2,829 $3,508
    Other $879 $1,489 $2,188 $2,968 $4,248

    The cost of fatalities and injuries is also relatively meaningless, because its value is biased on the presumption those deaths and injuries wouldn't otherwise happen. Everybody will still die, and will most likely incur other medical expenses along the way.

    Also don't forget even if you never drive a motor vehicle in your life, your very existence as you know it is still dependent on the the road network and its value goes far beyond individual motorists use.

    Its not subsidizing the auto industry, its subsidizing civilization.

  7. #32
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Don't forget the statistical value of human life is ultimately based on the amount that people are willing to accept to work in more hazardous occupations. Its usually used on those cost type social calculations,
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  8. #33
    Senior Member Chicago Al's Avatar
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    Better title: Righteousness Reigns: Why Inflammatory Headlines on the Internet Will Save The World or At Least Make Me Feel Better About Myself, Now It's Time for a Snack.
    Last edited by Chicago Al; 03-15-14 at 04:04 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    This thread has little to do with any modern discussion of roadway rights and responsibilities, and nothing to do with bicycling advocacy or safety, but rather is just ranting and over-the-top rhetoric against the individual use of motorized vehicles in the U.S.
    i think some ranting and rhetoric is justified by a practice that unnecessarily spews enormous amount of toxins, carcinogens, and teratogens into the atmosphere we all breathe, that kills ~1.2 million people each year (according to WHO estimates), and is a major contributor to the ongoing mass extinction associated with anthropogenic climate change.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-15-14 at 05:02 PM.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    Its not subsidizing the auto industry, its subsidizing civilization.


    i guess you've never heard of the trains and boats that carry the vast majority of freight on this warming planet.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post


    i guess you've never heard of the trains and boats that carry the vast majority of freight on this warming planet.
    I guess you have never heard that goods don't magically appear on boats and trains, and how often do you get your goods directly from a boat or train?

    The climate changes and non viable species go extinct, always have, always will, someday the sun will go nova, end of story.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    I guess you have never heard that goods don't magically appear on boats and trains, and how often do you get your goods directly from a boat or train?
    How often do you get you goods directly from a semi truck? Just because our society has provided billions in subsidies to sociopathic companies that are unnecessarily poisoning and degrading our environment does not mean we should continue to do so.

    The climate changes and non viable species go extinct, always have, always will, someday the sun will go nova, end of story.
    Murder, torture, sex crimes, incest, massacres, and genocide have happened before too. Somehow I don't use this fact as an excuse to not give a f***.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    How often do you get you goods directly from a semi truck? Just because our society has provided billions in subsidies to sociopathic companies that are unnecessarily poisoning and degrading our environment does not mean we should continue to do so.

    Murder, torture, sex crimes, incest, massacres, and genocide have happened before too. Somehow I don't use this fact as an excuse to not give a f***.
    As a city P&D driver for a major LTL freight and parcel carrier that I'm certain you have had deliver to you (and carries your mail and parcels for the USPS), I guess you conveniently forgot your bicycle, food, clothing, and the computer you're posting on were delivered to you or your retailer by truck, so its you the consumer, not the "sociopathic companies" creating the demand for transportation. I service a half dozen bicycle shops in my route area...with a semi.

    Please don't confuse honesty and concern on a realistic level with not giving a F***. The difference is having productive, attainable goals Vs. Utopian fantasy.

    Unless you're running around in a rabbit skin loincloth foraging nuts and berries you're the same as those you admonish, except for being more hypocritical.
    Last edited by kickstart; 03-15-14 at 07:27 PM.

  14. #39
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    The cost of fatalities and injuries is also relatively meaningless, because its value is biased on the presumption those deaths and injuries wouldn't otherwise happen. Everybody will still die, and will most likely incur other medical expenses along the way.
    Based strictly (and without regards to morality or ethics) on the economics of health care in the U.S. and the large financialburden placed on the system by elderly people in their declining years, auto fatalities more than likely produce a health care savings for the taxpayer over the long term.

    Of course the ranters and ravers seem to have little use for rational thinking when spouting flaky rhetoric.

  15. #40
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    Based strictly (and without regards to morality or ethics) on the economics of health care in the U.S. and the large financialburden placed on the system by elderly people in their declining years
    *Are the elderly disproportionately represented in auto accidents?

    *Are you accounting for the lost economic activity of decedents?

    *Are you accounting for the direct and indirect costs of treating diseases associated with sedentary lifestyles and toxic pollution?

    Basically what I am asking, ILTB, is do you have any evidence to support your statement?
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-15-14 at 11:33 PM.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    As a city P&D driver for a major LTL freight and parcel carrier that I'm certain you have had deliver to you (and carries your mail and parcels for the USPS)

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.


    --Upton Sinclair
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.


    --Upton Sinclair
    "A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought"

    Irony is better than hypocrisy fellow consumer.

  18. #43
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    *Are the elderly disproportionately represented in auto accidents?
    All future health care costs are reduced to zero for fatalities to include the long term care of those with debilitating or terminal diseases, no matter what the age at time of death.
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    *Are you accounting for the lost economic activity of decedents?
    My "most likely" statement was about health costs, not economic activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    *Are you accounting for the direct and indirect costs of treating diseases associated with sedentary lifestyles and toxic pollution?
    Why should I, it is irrelevant to my statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Basically what I am asking, ILTB, is do you have any evidence to support your statement?
    Don't need anymore, but feel free to carry on with hyperbolic rhetoric about the Evil Motorist Empire. Stirring just that pot is obviously the purpose of this thread.

  19. #44
    Home School Valedictorian 02Giant's Avatar
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    How does that go...vehicles don't kill people, people kill people.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    My "most likely" statement was about health costs, not economic activity.
    Your statement was pulled out of your posterior without a single piece of supporting evidence.
    Also a protip: When attempting to argue cost vs benefit it helps to at least pretend to have a modicum of objectivity.


    but feel free to carry on with hyperbolic rhetoric about the Evil Motorist Empire.
    *~1.2 million (largely) preventable fatalities.
    *massive amounts of chronic disease caused by motor-vehicle pollution.
    *ocean acidification.
    *anthropogenic climate change.
    *ongoing mass extinction.
    Road rash is a precious gift. Road rash is your friend. Bask in it, appreciate it, love it. Above all, learn from it. --Robert Hurst

  21. #46
    Senior Member spdracr39's Avatar
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    I have never seen a *** just randomly go off and kill someone nor has a car ever just jumped up and pummeled anyone to death. Cars don't murder people other people do. Don't blame the tool blame the operator. I could just as easily kill someone with my bicycle so this argument is rediculous.

  22. #47
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdracr39 View Post
    nor has a car ever just jumped up and pummeled anyone to death.
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  23. #48
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Also a protip: When attempting to argue cost vs benefit it helps to at least pretend to have a modicum of objectivity.
    "Pro" at what?

    Probably the most foolish argument being made on this thread is about costs of motorized transportation from individuals who apparently wish to return transportation options for commerce and individuals back to 1900 or earlier. If that is not what is being advocated by the rhetorical ranters, then what is being advocated?
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 03-16-14 at 05:11 PM.

  24. #49
    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    This thread has little to do with any modern discussion of roadway rights and responsibilities, and nothing to do with bicycling advocacy or safety, but rather is just ranting and over-the-top rhetoric against the individual use of motorized vehicles in the U.S.
    With some of the most inane commentary I've ever seen. Even for a group of ideologues like this one, this is bordering on comedy of the absurd. Cars, which were a novelty in 1910 with no supporting infrastructure, are now judged by status in 1910...and the cheaper manufacture and infrastructure improvements by 1930 were just the results of propaganda. After all - it's self evident that autos offered no improvement in transportation and the only way "they" got people to buy into them was propaganda and government programming. It couldn't have anything to do with continued efforts to go further, faster and the manufacturing improvements that made them affordable to the majority...nope - it was evil brain machines constructed by the murder lobby, since anyone who disagrees with this vocal minority must be duped idiots.

    Maybe the government backed motorized transport so the 30,000 murders could push their illuminati leaders into heaven!

    Dat internet be evil I tell ya, and it's only important because the Internet lobby convinced everyone it is! Why in 1985 people didn't even know there was an internet! But thanks to lobbying and brainwashing, now everyone thinks the internet is super important!

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Al View Post
    Better title: Righteousness Reigns: Why Inflammatory Headlines on the Internet Will Save The World or At Least Make Me Feel Better About Myself, Now It's Time for a Snack.
    You are so right Al,

    S&A has little to do with improving safety or being involved in promoting cycling, its sad how quickly common sense is thrown out for rhetoric. Like you, I see its best to avoid, lest they drag you down to their level.

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