Bike Forums

Bike Forums (http://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Advocacy & Safety (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/)
-   -   Murder Machines: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/938245-murder-machines-why-cars-will-kill-30-000-americans-year.html)

kickstart 03-18-14 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16588447)
Contrary to the pathetic whining on this page about anyone who dares to challenge autocentrism, I'm not against low occupancy vehicles. I am against the negative environmental, social, and economic impact of low occupancy motoring. And I'm not going to sugar coat these negative impacts. What is really galling is that all of these issues are addressable *NOW* (via a mix of approaches).

It seems all that you object to is being addressed, just not as fast as you desire. Its also open to question the scale and urgency some believe it to be.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickstart (Post 16588729)
It seems all that you object to is being addressed, just not as fast as you desire. Its also open to question the scale and urgency some believe it to be.

Could you please provide some specific examples. (I personally see very little evidence of urgency in the USA.)

kickstart 03-18-14 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16588915)
Could you please provide some specific examples. (I personally see very little evidence of urgency in the USA.)

What I'm saying is I'm not convinced any of the theories are beyond question or to be taken as gospel. Folks on both sides have a vested interest in what they believe, or in other words, the wisest answers most likely fall between status quo and chicken little.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickstart (Post 16588976)
What I'm saying is I'm not convinced any of the theories are beyond question or to be taken as gospel. Folks on both sides have a vested interest in what they believe, or in other words, the wisest answers most likely fall between status quo and chicken little.

The status quo in the USA is an outlier in comparison northern europe. And despite this gross violation of the "status quo" the sky did not fall in Germany or the Netherlands....

kickstart 03-18-14 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16589130)
The status quo in the USA is an outlier in comparison northern europe. And despite this gross violation of the "status quo" the sky did not fall in Germany or the Netherlands....

When things are presented as being black and white, all answers no questions, it starts to sound more like religion than science.
That worries me.

howsteepisit 03-18-14 12:11 PM

And so what if the US status quo is different than that of northern Europe. US runs the way the majority of its citizens desire, Europe does the same.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 16589165)
US runs the way the majority of its citizens desire, Europe does the same.

Do you really want me to post a very long list of things that the majority of US citizens support that are not the way the US runs?

Even in Portland the will of the people is largely ignored because our politicians are too busy with "business stakeholders":

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9si...SdDlZd09n/edit

howsteepisit 03-18-14 12:42 PM

Ya mean like autocentric transportation design, rather than some other design to suit the whims of a small percentage of the population? In reality, We could post and cross post list of things that are done as the majority like and dislike, but thats a total waste of time. The reality is that you spare wheel, feel like the use of low occupancy automobile represents the greatest current threat to mans survival and want immediate action. Most of the US population disagrees and since they control indirectly through their elected representatives, change at your desired pace is not gonna happen.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 01:31 PM

Quote:

the use of low occupancy automobile represents the greatest current threat to mans survival and want immediate action
nice try. but...no.

Quote:

Most of the US population disagrees
disagrees with what exactly? do you have some links to polls on specific issues and topics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 16589300)
...they control indirectly through their elected representatives

i think when it comes to transportation issues our lobbying corporate citizens exercise far more control than voting citizens.


Quote:

change at your desired pace is not gonna happen
which is exactly why i like to highlight some reasons for change. that and fighting the good fight against the autocentric illuminati global conspiracy.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickstart (Post 16589163)
That worries me.

Overton windows tend to be quite opaque.

RPK79 03-18-14 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16589475)
i think when it comes to transportation issues our lobbying corporate citizens exercise far more control than voting citizens.

Which is why in my neck of the woods they keep ignoring road infrastructure and dumping millions into mass transit that no one uses. Almost as if they hope the roads fall apart and become so much of a pain to use that people start using their mass transit.

howsteepisit 03-18-14 02:06 PM

Spare_wheel,
I base my opinion of your postion on single occupancy motor vehicle use on quotes like:

"i think some ranting and rhetoric is justified by a practice that unnecessarily spews enormous amount of toxins, carcinogens, and teratogens into the atmosphere we all breathe, that kills ~1.2 million people each year (according to WHO estimates), and is a major contributor to the ongoing mass extinction associated with anthropogenic climate change"

As far as the other stuff, no survey data, just my opinions base on casual conversation on what people seem to want/like/believe. So like most things on internet forum, you are totally free to discard.

I agree our system is corrupted by special interest lobbying, but I probably don't think its as corrupted as you do, fair enough.

And yep, you should fight the good fight for what you believe, but don't be surprised when others do not agree.

Any what the majority of people disagree with, is the urgency and availabilty of suitable and affordable solution to single motorist car use, NOW in your words. I base this opinion on the relative slow pace of conversion to the unnamed solutions that you speculated on.

kickstart 03-18-14 02:36 PM

You bring up plausible ideas such as Overton and corporate lobbyists, then you go way out on a limb right to the bitter end with,
Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16589475)
that and fighting the good fight against the autocentric illuminati global conspiracy.

And along with that you present it all with a stance that leaves no room for question or compromise, attacking any who disagree at all. Its almost like you want to alienate as many people as you can.

It makes no sense.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kickstart (Post 16589723)
You bring up plausible ideas such as Overton and corporate lobbyists, then you go way out on a limb right to the bitter end with,


And along with that you present it all with a stance that leaves no room for question or compromise, attacking any who disagree at all. Its almost like you want to alienate as many people as you can.

It makes no sense.

that was sarcasm, kickstart.

spare_wheel 03-18-14 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsteepisit (Post 16589615)
on the relative slow pace of conversion

to be honest, the pace of "conversion" is more rapid that i expected. in particular, the sharp drop in driving and interest in car ownership among the younger demographic is quite striking.

keyven 03-21-14 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16589775)
to be honest, the pace of "conversion" is more rapid that i expected. in particular, the sharp drop in driving and interest in car ownership among the younger demographic is quite striking.

Let's hope people start taking to bikes or other modes of transport over padding the already overcrowded roads.

kickstart 03-21-14 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spare_wheel (Post 16589775)
to be honest, the pace of "conversion" is more rapid that i expected. in particular, the sharp drop in driving and interest in car ownership among the younger demographic is quite striking.

That's true, but the reason apparently is because of their addiction to electronic devices, and the desire to always have the latest and greatest at any cost. This has its health and environmental costs too.

There is no "free" ride.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:44 AM.