Murder Machines: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
I have never seen a gun just randomly go off and kill someone nor has a car ever just jumped up and pummeled anyone to death. Cars don't murder people other people do. Don't blame the tool blame the operator. I could just as easily kill someone with my bicycle so this argument is rediculous.
#52
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
"Pro" at what?
Probably the most foolish argument being made on this thread is about costs of motorized transportation from individuals who apparently wish to return transportation options for commerce and individuals back to 1900 or earlier. If that is not what is being advocated by the rhetorical ranters, then what is being advocated?
Probably the most foolish argument being made on this thread is about costs of motorized transportation from individuals who apparently wish to return transportation options for commerce and individuals back to 1900 or earlier. If that is not what is being advocated by the rhetorical ranters, then what is being advocated?
PS:
Mass-produced gasoline motorvehicle: Benz Motorwagen -1885
Mass production of electric cars: Electric Construction Corporation - 1888
Mass-production of chain-driven dunlop tire bicycle: 1889
Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-17-14 at 12:14 PM.
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
With some of the most inane commentary I've ever seen. Even for a group of ideologues like this one, this is bordering on comedy of the absurd.
Cars, which were a novelty in 1910 with no supporting infrastructure, are now judged by status in 1910...and the cheaper manufacture and infrastructure improvements by 1930 were just the results of propaganda.
After all - it's self evident that autos offered no improvement in transportation and the only way "they" got people to buy into them was propaganda and government programming.
...nope - it was evil brain machines constructed by the murder lobby, since anyone who disagrees with this vocal minority must be duped idiots.
Maybe the government backed motorized transport so the 30,000 murders could push their illuminati leaders into heaven!
Cars, which were a novelty in 1910 with no supporting infrastructure, are now judged by status in 1910...and the cheaper manufacture and infrastructure improvements by 1930 were just the results of propaganda.
After all - it's self evident that autos offered no improvement in transportation and the only way "they" got people to buy into them was propaganda and government programming.
...nope - it was evil brain machines constructed by the murder lobby, since anyone who disagrees with this vocal minority must be duped idiots.
Maybe the government backed motorized transport so the 30,000 murders could push their illuminati leaders into heaven!
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Also, to actually comment on the OP headline, DOT estimates that the total annual miles driven is in the neighborhood of 3,000,000,000,000 (Note thats 3 trillion), 30,000/3,000,000,000,000 = 1 death /100,000,000 miles driven.
Or
since there are about 2,500,000 deaths per year total in the US (Census data) 30,000/2,500,000 = .012 or 1.2 per cent of all deaths are due to traffic accidents.
thats why as a society we "accept 30000 deaths per year.
Or
since there are about 2,500,000 deaths per year total in the US (Census data) 30,000/2,500,000 = .012 or 1.2 per cent of all deaths are due to traffic accidents.
thats why as a society we "accept 30000 deaths per year.
- Heart disease: 597,689
- Cancer: 574,743
- Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
- Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
- Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
- Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
- Diabetes: 69,071
- Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
- Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
- Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364
Fatal car accidents are on the same order as suicides, and somewhat lower than Influenza and Pneumonia. Would it be accurate to say that we "accept 38,000 to 50,000 deaths" from each of these causes because they're such a low percentage of the total? It seems to me that it's not, that we expend quite a bit of effort and resources in prevention of suicide and influenza. So I am skeptical of your surmise, and I think there must be some other reason for our relative apathy over automobile fatalities.
#56
Senior Member
WP I see your point, and to some extent I think we as a society just accept the traffic deaths as a cost of dong business, however there are substantial resources expended on trying to reduce traffic deaths, including PSAs, traffic law enforcement (crappy as it is) development of auto safety devices and the like. I'd guess, that if all costs various auto safety initiatives, research and development were summed they would vastly exceed the amount spent on suicide prevention.
Would be some interesting comparisons to be made for sure. My personal observation is the amount spent on the prevention of any death/injury is more related to the strength and attractiveness of the lobbying organization than to the actual number of deaths or death rates.
Would be some interesting comparisons to be made for sure. My personal observation is the amount spent on the prevention of any death/injury is more related to the strength and attractiveness of the lobbying organization than to the actual number of deaths or death rates.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
WP I see your point, and to some extent I think we as a society just accept the traffic deaths as a cost of dong business, however there are substantial resources expended on trying to reduce traffic deaths, including PSAs, traffic law enforcement (crappy as it is) development of auto safety devices and the like. I'd guess, that if all costs various auto safety initiatives, research and development were summed they would vastly exceed the amount spent on suicide prevention.
Would be some interesting comparisons to be made for sure. My personal observation is the amount spent on the prevention of any death/injury is more related to the strength and attractiveness of the lobbying organization than to the actual number of deaths or death rates.
Would be some interesting comparisons to be made for sure. My personal observation is the amount spent on the prevention of any death/injury is more related to the strength and attractiveness of the lobbying organization than to the actual number of deaths or death rates.
That's probably right, on both points.
Maybe we're asking the wrong question. Why do we spend so much on making the equipment safer in order to mitigate crashes, but resist changes to prevent crashes?
#58
Senior Member
I think thats a fair question, and from my perspective, at least here in the US the answer runs something like we want "sound bite" solutions which require no actual effort to solve problems. If we can install seat belts and air bags to keep (some of) us safe in accidents, why have law enforcement, skills testing, alternative transportations and so on. So to say, Its the American way, sadly.
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Cabot, Arkansas
Posts: 1,538
Bikes: Lynskey Twisted Helix Di2 Ti, 1987 Orbea steel single speed/fixie, Orbea Avant M30, Trek Fuel EX9.8 29, Trek Madone 5 series, Specialized Epic Carbon Comp 29er, Trek 7.1F
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
That is exactly what validates the point. A person must fire the gun or operate the vehicle and make decisions to cause the problem. The gun or car cannot and will not ever produce injury or death without human interaction. It is the careless HUMAN that is the issue not the tool being utilized. Increase the penalties for people that can't drive within the boundaries of the law to a point severe enough to force compliance. To ban the use of the tool because some people are to lazy/dumb to use it safely is asinine.
#60
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
Did you find any useful or practical changes advocated in the OP or follow on posts on this thread?
Prefer to read suggestions for practical changes rather than simple utopian solutions that sound good late at night in a hipster bar, college dorm, or on a wacka-doodle Internet site.
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
What "changes" do you, or the shocked, shocked ranters advocate to restrain the so-called murder rate of card besides wailing and gnashing of teeth?
Prefer to read suggestions for practical changes rather than simple utopian solutions that sound good late at night in a hipster bar, college dorm, or on a wacka-doodle Internet site.
Prefer to read suggestions for practical changes rather than simple utopian solutions that sound good late at night in a hipster bar, college dorm, or on a wacka-doodle Internet site.
In the realm of infrastructure, there are a number of traffic calming strategies that are well tested. In my local area, traffic calming would be seen as an infringement on individual liberties. Or worse. So I'd advocate changing those perceptions.
Technologically, you probably don't want to go this deep into the rabbit hole but I advocate for event data recorders to be accessed by insurance companies and law enforcement in the event of traffic incidents. I think that a lot of bad behavior is rationalized simply by the fact that they expect to get away with it and usually do.
I realize that your question is likely a rhetorical one, but it's a good question in my opinion. I'd like to give it a better treatment than this, but this isn't really the right time for it. Maybe later.
#62
Senior Member
ILTB, Not sure I understand your point of view on this. Are you thinking the accident/death rate is sufficiently low as to not need additional action? Or is your post a reply to earlier rantings? Did you have any proposed actions, or is status quo fine with you?
Personally, I not into much handwringing, but better and more consistent enforcement of all traffic laws would go a long way in my opinion. Or, as many of my Econ professors liked to take about, it you want to see better driving, mount a 6-inch spike in the center of the steering wheel pointed directly at the drivers chest. Driving habits would change overnight. I am not sure that in the long run they would stay changes, because nobody actually thinks they are going to hit something/someone, but that would need to be seen.
Personally, I not into much handwringing, but better and more consistent enforcement of all traffic laws would go a long way in my opinion. Or, as many of my Econ professors liked to take about, it you want to see better driving, mount a 6-inch spike in the center of the steering wheel pointed directly at the drivers chest. Driving habits would change overnight. I am not sure that in the long run they would stay changes, because nobody actually thinks they are going to hit something/someone, but that would need to be seen.
#63
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
Off the top I'd say lower urban speed limits, repeal of right turn on red, and everybody's favorite, stronger enforcement of distracted/aggressive driving laws would be a start.
In the realm of infrastructure, there are a number of traffic calming strategies that are well tested. In my local area, traffic calming would be seen as an infringement on individual liberties. Or worse. So I'd advocate changing those perceptions.
Technologically, you probably don't want to go this deep into the rabbit hole but I advocate for event data recorders to be accessed by insurance companies and law enforcement in the event of traffic incidents. I think that a lot of bad behavior is rationalized simply by the fact that they expect to get away with it and usually do.
I realize that your question is likely a rhetorical one, but it's a good question in my opinion. I'd like to give it a better treatment than this, but this isn't really the right time for it. Maybe later.
In the realm of infrastructure, there are a number of traffic calming strategies that are well tested. In my local area, traffic calming would be seen as an infringement on individual liberties. Or worse. So I'd advocate changing those perceptions.
Technologically, you probably don't want to go this deep into the rabbit hole but I advocate for event data recorders to be accessed by insurance companies and law enforcement in the event of traffic incidents. I think that a lot of bad behavior is rationalized simply by the fact that they expect to get away with it and usually do.
I realize that your question is likely a rhetorical one, but it's a good question in my opinion. I'd like to give it a better treatment than this, but this isn't really the right time for it. Maybe later.
However if/when reasonable suggestions for change such as your own are allowed to be framed/"owned" by hot-headed ideologues (as seen on this list) more interested in inflammatory rhetoric than productive advocacy, rational proponents of such changes can count on zero public support.
#64
Senior Member
"to fight, the impossible fight, To dream the impossible dream"
ILTB's future on A&S
Note to ILTB I agree with you way way way more often than not, I am just jabbing at cha.
ILTB's future on A&S
Note to ILTB I agree with you way way way more often than not, I am just jabbing at cha.
#65
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times
in
1,031 Posts
My view is that such anti motorist/anti-motoring threads should be redirected to Foo or P&R since the bicycling content is zero.
#67
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
An enforced standard urban speed limit of 20 mph would largely eliminate fatalities caused by motorvehicle collisions .
Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-17-14 at 03:59 PM.
#68
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
That is exactly what validates the point. A person must fire the gun or operate the vehicle and make decisions to cause the problem. The gun or car cannot and will not ever produce injury or death without human interaction. It is the careless HUMAN that is the issue not the tool being utilized. Increase the penalties for people that can't drive within the boundaries of the law to a point severe enough to force compliance.
To ban the use of the tool because some people are to lazy/dumb to use it safely is asinine.
No one has proposed banning cars. In fact, I suspect a transition to driverless cars will be what really causes active transport to take off in the USA.
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1638 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times
in
495 Posts
Between 1998 and 2007 57% of traffic fatalities happened in rural areas, from year to year the statistic remains very consistent.
#70
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
but according to the fhwa only ~25% of pedestrian/cyclist fatalities occur on rural highways.
Factors Contributing to Pedestrian and Bicycle Crashes on Rural Highways - FHWA-HRT-10-052
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
I suspect that within the next ten to twenty years advances in vehicle safety technology will make a significant reduction in accidents.
#72
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,229
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
Howsteepisit, I think my response to Wphamilton answered your question. My previous posts on this thread were directed to the inflammatory anti-motorist, anti motoring rantings without any suggested proposals being passed off as some sort of bicycling safety or advocacy topic.
My view is that such anti motorist/anti-motoring threads should be redirected to Foo or P&R since the bicycling content is zero.
My view is that such anti motorist/anti-motoring threads should be redirected to Foo or P&R since the bicycling content is zero.
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1638 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times
in
495 Posts
any incorporated area with a significant population concentration. (i'm provisionally OK with higher speed limits on limited access roads or rural highways.)
but according to the fhwa only ~25% of pedestrian/cyclist fatalities occur on rural highways.
Factors Contributing to Pedestrian and Bicycle Crashes on Rural Highways - FHWA-HRT-10-052
but according to the fhwa only ~25% of pedestrian/cyclist fatalities occur on rural highways.
Factors Contributing to Pedestrian and Bicycle Crashes on Rural Highways - FHWA-HRT-10-052
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...62922401,d.aWc
#75
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
I missed the part where you specified pedestrian and bicyclist fatalities.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...62922401,d.aWc
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...62922401,d.aWc