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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
    The times, they are a changin'. Fewer than 10% of the doors that open within my view do so within thirty seconds of the car stopping/parking. ....
    We get some of that here, which why I mentioned folks winding up cell phone calls, but otherwise a New York minute is like afw seconds anywhere else, and folks are out of their cars pretty fast after parking.

    How this is like one of those false positive/false negative things. Seeing a car park up ahead is fair warning of upcoming dooring possibility, but not seeing one isn't a reliable all clear.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Yes, but this is Australia which means opening the door on the left side is like opening the door on the right side in America.
    My reading comprehension sucked this morning. I read passenger side and just assumed driver's side since that's normally where these things happen.

  3. #28
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    My wife and child are in Melbourne right now, so I found this a rather interesting and pertinent subject.

    She's hugging the curb so close that I can't imagine the man seeing her easily until she's pretty close. Furthermore, any kid would just throw open the door, so it's never wise to assume you can afford to be reckless even if you have the law on your side.

    Actually, non-drivers wouldn't think to look at the sideview mirror for CYCLISTS. I would glance out before I open on the walkway side, but certainly not squint at the side mirrors or strain to look behind. If it was the driver's side, I would make certain no vehicles/cyclists are incoming.

    Yes their attitude are definitely arrogant. However, I believe they owed her an apology for not helping regardless of who was at fault. The fact that they were dressed in suits simply made them all the more like heartless rich asses.

  4. #29
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    I'm not sure of the wording of the law, but it is designed to stop people just throwing open without LOOKING or without having PULLED OVER to the side of the road.

    I see a car pulled to the side of the road, probably with a turn signal on, I'm going to know that something is up and I need to watch out (go around, stop, whatever). I don't care even if a cab is blocking a bike lane to do this (ie pull over to get a passenger get in or out) since I can see what he is doing and I can react.

    If a car is just in a regular traffic lane (as this cab was) then you shouldn't be able to just throw open the door in an unexpected way and get away with it. The new laws mean the legal onus is now on YOU (the passenger) to ensure the path is clear before you leap out.

  5. #30
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    She's hugging the curb so close that I can't imagine the man seeing her easily until she's pretty close. Furthermore, any kid would just throw open the door, so it's never wise to assume you can afford to be reckless even if you have the law on your side.
    The cyclist has no choice but to hug the curb here.
    The man didn't even try to look. He also (allegedly) ignored a warning from the driver (with mirrors and presumably knowledge of the new laws) not to do it.
    Didn't your mother always ask you to check or look first? Child proof locks for the really young ones?


    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    Actually, non-drivers wouldn't think to look at the sideview mirror for CYCLISTS. I would glance out before I open on the walkway side, but certainly not squint at the side mirrors or strain to look behind. If it was the driver's side, I would make certain no vehicles/cyclists are incoming.
    Folks will learn and get into the habit. Attitudes to many things have changed over the years due to law changes etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    Yes their attitude are definitely arrogant. However, I believe they owed her an apology for not helping regardless of who was at fault. The fact that they were dressed in suits simply made them all the more like heartless rich asses.
    I bet all three of them are regretting being such knobs now. I'm sure they have had plenty of negative feedback directly due to the publicity.

  6. #31
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    Even though the guy should have known better, she was the one who got hurt. And he probably has the money to laugh off the fine while his lawyer represents him in court, so the only real loser here is the cyclist.

    Heck, sometimes the offender might be a harried mother being harrassed by crying children, or an elderly grandfather not prone to studying up on road laws after 1940, or a girlfriend kicking open the door after a big argument with the boyfriend. The list goes on and on and on.

    Drivers are one thing, passengers quite another.

    Bottom line: Accidents will definitely happen as long as cyclists don't slow down when passing stationary cars... once you are lying bloodied and broken on the road, it barely matters who's at fault.
    Last edited by keyven; 03-19-14 at 09:38 AM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyven View Post
    ...Actually, non-drivers wouldn't think to look at the sideview mirror for CYCLISTS. I would glance out before I open on the walkway side, but certainly not squint at the side mirrors or strain to look behind. If it was the driver's side, I would make certain no vehicles/cyclists are incoming.

    Yes their attitude are definitely arrogant. However, I believe they owed her an apology for not helping regardless of who was at fault. The fact that they were dressed in suits simply made them all the more like heartless rich asses.
    As an avid, year-round, decades-long cycling tourist and commuter, when driving I have to think hard to remember to look out for cylists on both sides, and we have bike lanes in our neighborhood. I'm better when a passenger, especially in a cab.

    I guess your mindset changes when you enter the "cage."
    Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-19-14 at 04:48 AM.

  8. #33
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    I bet all three of them are regretting being such knobs now. I'm sure they have had plenty of negative feedback directly due to the publicity.
    The publicity will also send a message to other motorists and their passengers, in the area, to be more attentive when exiting their vehicles.

  9. #34
    Senior Member JonnyHK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
    I guess your mindset changes when you enter the "cage."
    It must be like a Faraday Cage. It blocks the signals from the real world.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyHK View Post
    The cyclist has no choice but to hug the curb here.
    The man didn't even try to look. He also (allegedly) ignored a warning from the driver (with mirrors and presumably knowledge of the new laws) not to do it.
    Didn't your mother always ask you to check or look first? Child proof locks for the really young ones?




    Folks will learn and get into the habit. Attitudes to many things have changed over the years due to law changes etc.




    I bet all three of them are regretting being such knobs now. I'm sure they have had plenty of negative feedback directly due to the publicity.
    Actually it looks like the cyclist has 2 other choices.

    One be on the street not the separate unloading lane.

    Two to pass on the driver side.

    It is not possible for a passenger to check the mirrors, they are adjusted for the driver. That means the only way to check would be to roll the window and stick you head out. Hmm thinking of that stick your head out very carefully cuz if you get a cyclist like this one it is your head that will take the brunt of the collision.
    Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Actually it looks like the cyclist has 2 other choices.

    One be on the street not the separate unloading lane.

    Two to pass on the driver side.

    It is not possible for a passenger to check the mirrors, they are adjusted for the driver. That means the only way to check would be to roll the window and stick you head out. Hmm thinking of that stick your head out very carefully cuz if you get a cyclist like this one it is your head that will take the brunt of the collision.
    Exactly... regardless of the rules and implementation, carelessness and recklessness is all too common, ESPECIALLY for non-drivers and non-cyclists.

    You must be nuts if you think there will ever be a world where cyclists are acceptably safe from 'dooring', no matter how much fines is levelled at offenders. I don't believe jail-time is appropriate unless the cyclist is killed or permanently handicapped, but even then how is that a fair trade?

    Bottom line: Always assume the car ahead is going to open his door without looking. Education and threat of fines can decrease this, but it's definitely going to happen - often enough. Unless you feel that extra 5 mph is worth a limb or two.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
    Actually it looks like the cyclist has 2 other choices.

    One be on the street not the separate unloading lane.

    Two to pass on the driver side. ....
    OMG, you sent me to look at the video again.

    This was a side lane, apparently for passenger loading or unloading at the hotel, or at least to prevent stopped traffic on the main road. So WTF did the cyclist expect when a cab pulled up to the door of a hotel?

    IMO this is the result of bad laws that unreasonably entitle cyclists and raise expectations of protection out of proportion with reality. I'm not talking of anti-dooring rules in general, only those that apply to the cubside (if this one does).

    Any sympathy I might have had for the cyclist is gone, and I can understand how the people involved could feel that cyclists have become arrogant and out of control. (by the way, the cyclists opening words didn't help).

    Regadless of any specipic laws, people have to use some common sense. A cab stops at a hotel. Common sense says someone is going to open the door to enter or exit. Parked at a curb a passenger wouldn't expect a cyclist on sliding past on the cub side.

    This accident could also have been prevented by the cab driver by stopping closer to the curb preventing the cyclist from doing a dumb thing. But in the final analysis, cyclists can't and shouldn't count on others doing everything possible to protect them from their own stupidity.
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    The more I look at this, the more I think the cyclist was an idiot.

    Cab pulls over to the side of the road and stops - at a distance from the curb that's reasonable for a parked car. Cyclist tries to squeeze between stopped cab and curb and is surprised when a passenger gets out of the stopped cab.

    She not only put herself in a blind spot where the passenger opening the door simply could not see her, she put herself in that blind spot where there was no expectation whatsoever that she'd be there. It's not like she was in the blind spot of a car while both were flowing in moving traffic.

    Had she been trolling for a dooring she couldn't have done it any better.

    On edit - and the more I think about it, the dodgier she seems. Geez, the first words out of her mouth were to ask for his personal information, as if the dooring was no surprise. I seriously doubt if I were surprised by a dooring I'd pop up off the pavement like an overly-caffeinated Weeble, instantly demanding identifying information to the point of knowing and very, very quickly stating the person opening the door committed a traffic violation.
    Last edited by achoo; 03-19-14 at 10:49 AM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    ...

    This accident could also have been prevented by the cab driver by stopping closer to the curb preventing the cyclist from doing a dumb thing. But in the final analysis, cyclists can't and shouldn't count on others doing everything possible to protect them from their own stupidity.
    How much closer, though? I swear I've seen cars with curb feelers longer than the distance between that cab and the curb. That's not an unreasonable distance between a parked car and a curb, much less one for a cab pulling over to stop and let out passengers.

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    Wow, it's astounding that cyclists on the internet have no compassion for other cyclists who become injured.

    The police, who know the local law, sided with her.

    There were other cyclists riding behind her in that lane (they had to dismount their bikes and walk them because of the accident), so if she hadn't been doored, another cyclist would've been the unfortunate victim. One of the cyclists who was there and witnessed the accident, riding behind the woman, asked her if she was alright; he didn't blame her.

    Of course she had to immediately ask the businessmen for their details- she said she'd been doored before; for all she knew, the men had arrived at their destination and were about to disappear into a hotel or establishment within the next 15 seconds! They also hadn't arrived at their destination, yet; the taxi wasn't parked at the curb, so there wasn't a way for the cyclist to know that people were suddenly going to come out. The men chose to get out of the taxi and walk to wherever they were headed. So, technically, those men didn't need to get out of the taxi at that moment. Also, they could've exited on the right side, instead.
    Last edited by anon06; 03-19-14 at 12:31 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon06 View Post
    Wow, it's astounding that cyclists on the internet have no compassion for other cyclists who become injured.

    The police, who know the local law, sided with her..
    It's not that I lack sympathy for the victim (who didn't seem injured, though her bike might have been damaged). It's that law or no law, she failed to display some common sense and situational awareness (especially if she'd been doored before). The fact is that I blame the law for giving her the sense that it offered a protection that there's no way it could ensure.

    I don't know the details of the Australian dooring law, but this was a service lane where one should reasonably expect that cabs would stop and discharge passengers. It's reasonable to expect that passengers would open doors on the curb side. So if the law prevents cabs from pulling closer because of a bike lane (if there was one), then there will always be doorings if/when cyclists pass between cabs and curbs --- law or no law. Something has to change, or the problem will continue because it's designed in.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member Jim from Boston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    It's not that I lack sympathy for the victim (who didn't seem injured, though her bike might have been damaged). It's that law or no law, she failed to display some common sense and situational awareness (especially if she'd been doored before). The fact is that I blame the law for giving her the sense that it offered a protection that there's no way it could ensure.

    I don't know the details of the Australian dooring law, but this was a service lane where one should reasonably expect that cabs would stop and discharge passengers. It's reasonable to expect that passengers would open doors on the curb side. So if the law prevents cabs from pulling closer because of a bike lane (if there was one), then there will always be doorings if/when cyclists pass between cabs and curbs --- law or no law. Something has to change, or the problem will continue because it's designed in.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon06 View Post
    Wow, it's astounding that cyclists on the internet have no compassion for other cyclists who become injured.

    The police, who know the local law, sided with her...
    Well said FBinNY, and to quote your signature line, "An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.". Furthermore as a corollary reply, like the "*** nuts" say, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."

    I did watch the video, and cringed when the door opened, but I could not imagine being in such a squeezed position, not prepared to stop when the cab did.
    Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-19-14 at 12:54 PM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I don't know the details of the Australian dooring law, but this was a service lane where one should reasonably expect that cabs would stop and discharge passengers. It's reasonable to expect that passengers would open doors on the curb side.
    That doesn't look like a service lane to me. It's the only lane in that direction for that stretch of road. Take a look at the streetview link posted up thread. There is one lane in each direction, with a streetcar station in the middle.

    There are also multiple no stopping signs (I count at least three).
    Last edited by BSB; 03-19-14 at 02:14 PM. Reason: typo

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSB View Post
    That doesn't look like a service lane to me. It's the only lane in that direction for that stretch of road. Take a look at the streetview link posted up thread. There is one lane in each direction, with a streetcar station in the middle.

    There are also has multiple no stopping signs (I count at least three).
    OK, I took the reference to it being a service road from a prior poster, who seemed to know. It still doesn't change my opinion that the law promises what it cannot deliver, mainly protection against getting doored on the curb side. The no stopping signs make it more illegal, but not more unpredictable.

    Here's an analogy. I live in NY. Central Park is open 27/7, but most people know it can be dangerous at night. I decide to ride my bike around the loop which includes a hill climb in the known to be dangerous northern end of the park. I get mugged and my bike is stolen. Yes, we all know mugging people and stealing bikes is criminal, but even my closest friends will tell me I was as dumb as a rock, and ask me WTF was I thinking by riding my bike alone in Central Park at night.

    Laws are laws, and realities are realities. Hopefully they're aligned but when not, reality trumps law. People need to understand that and act accordingly.
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    I forgot to add that maybe all vehicles, including taxis, should put their flashing emergency lights on to alert cyclists and other drivers that they're stopping to let a passenger out.

    I've seen truck drivers do this when they're parked on the street, on the side, making a delivery; my father also does this whenever he's reversing out of a parking space, as an extra safety measure to get drivers' attention.
    Last edited by anon06; 03-19-14 at 03:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anon06 View Post
    I forgot to add that maybe all vehicles, including taxis, should put their flashing emergency lights on to alert cyclists and other drivers that they're stopping to let a passenger out.

    I've seen truck drivers do this when they're parked on the street, on the side, making a delivery; my father also does this whenever he's reversing out of a parking space, as an extra safety measure to get drivers' attention.
    It was painfully obvious the cab was stopped. Adding a strobe off a 747 wouldn't make it any more obvious.

    She rode right into the door zone of a cab that had just pulled out of traffic, pulled over to the curb, and stopped. When there was no one hailing the cab to make it stop.

    And not just any door zone, the curb-side door zone.

    The results weren't surprising. Might as well cover yourself with raw meat, climb into the tiger pit at the local zoo, and then blame the zoo for not making the fence high enough.

    There's a reason why you hear a LOT of cyclists state they stay out of door zones - no matter what.

    All the laws in the world can't protect you when you ignore the real world.

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    No comment on traffic laws, but the passenger who doored the cyclist is a jerk.

    He doored the cyclist and just sat in his seat looking at her. Most normal human being would at least get out and ask "are you okay" or something. I cannot see his face but he just sat there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon06 View Post
    I forgot to add that maybe all vehicles, including taxis, should put their flashing emergency lights on to alert cyclists and other drivers that they're stopping to let a passenger out.

    I've seen truck drivers do this when they're parked on the street, on the side, making a delivery; my father also does this whenever he's reversing out of a parking space, as an extra safety measure to get drivers' attention.
    Yes, this would help, and the local county buses do it very reliably. Right flash = pulling over, both flash, stopped loading/unloading, left flash = pulling away from stop. It works very well and I routinely use it as a guide to whether to pass or not (not on the right, except when filtering past a stopped bus where I KNOW there's no bus stop.

    However, even if 95% of drivers did this, cyclists still have to be ready for those who don't.

    There's no assurance of safety passing between vehicles and the curb. I'm not saying don't do it because that would be hypocritical, and anyway people will do it anyway. I'm just saying that you need to exercise due caution and alertness.
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    I'm going to assume for a minute here that the cab had probably just passed the bikes, maybe not, just throwing it out there.
    If that were true, wouldn't the prudent thing to do have done be to not pass the bikes that you are immediately going to stop in front of? If that is the case it would seem that the driver should have stayed behind the bikes then pulled to the left, to the curb to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Man View Post
    I'm going to assume for a minute here that the cab had probably just passed the bikes, maybe not, just throwing it out there.
    If that were true, wouldn't the prudent thing to do have done be to not pass the bikes that you are immediately going to stop in front of? If that is the case it would seem that the driver should have stayed behind the bikes then pulled to the left, to the curb to stop.
    OK, so what about those bikes farther back? If you look at the video, you'll see that the cyclist passed at least one other vehicle before being doored.
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