punkinevil

YES! and that is the danger of a drastic price increase in consumer markets. Customers feel under-appreciated and cheated by a vendor they have patronized...sometimes with great loyalty, and strike back emotionally the only way they can. It is the "You don't value my business so I will find someone who does" reaction. It also sets a precedent that prices may continue to skyrocket and creates distrust. It is customer-retention poison.

vol

Also those who live in a walk-up building.

Vintage_Cyclist

CitiBike has caused a lot of damage to local bike stores that relied on tourist rentals. This is especially acute in Manhattan. the government is basically creaming the little guy by creating this questionable once-size-fits-all bike rental infrastructure.

I'd be interested to see if there are any professional and family connections between the companies involved in CitiBike and decision makers at NYC DOT that have championed it.

I-Like-To-Bike

Did any of the local bike stores allow pickup and drop off anywhere in the touristy areas in Manhattan, any time night or day, 7 days a week, rather than only at the location of the LBS and only during business hours? Also did you forget to mention the term "gouging" in reference to local bike stores that relied on tourist rentals?

FBinNY 

The fact is that bike share programs and tourist rental are different business models. There's some overlap, but bike share is transport, and based on a short ride interval with the bike dropped off. The pricing usually imposes cost penalties if anyone keeps a bike for over1/2 an hour. Of course someone can game the system by changing bikes every 1/2 hour.

OTOH bike shop rentals are for those who want the ride itself, rather than transport to a destination. So for sightseeing Manhattan and visiting the museums, bike share makes sense, but for a day riding in Central Park, or along the riverfront a normal bike rental makes more sense. Properly marketed, they can coexist fine.

Dave Cutter

In my experience... almost every time a person advocates these taxpayer funded programs they have some sort of connection to the funds. Always... follow the money.

Ultimately though... I think there are many people who are honestly convinced that businesses are corrupt and government is efficient and well regulated. It has been my observation that these people have little experience with ether business or government.

I-Like-To-Bike

Is it safe to say that CitiBike has NOT caused a lot of damage to local bike stores that relied on tourist rentals for the reasons above?

FBinNY 

To correct any misconception, Citibike doesn't (so far) get any city or state money. Like other businesses it's privately capitilized and funded. However they did get assistance by way of permitting and placement of kiosks on public property. That's not all that unusual, and there are plenty of parallels in other segments of the city's economy. Think about how much cities all over the USA spend on football stadiums. (kinda Robin Hood backwards, IMO)

So far, despite the dire predictions, the current mayor is holding fast at no city money to help. But as I said earlier, this is only the first act of political theater.

PLEASE BE REAL ---- This is the A&S forum, NOTHING is safe to say. Bit no it isn't a safe statement, every time a new player muscles into a crowded market, the existing players feel it. But this isn't much different than when someone opens a bike superstore in an area served by a number of independents.

In NY most rentals were handled as a side business by regular bike shops. There are two or three fairly large players who do rental as a core business, & I'm sure they're feeling the heat. I know one of them fairly well, and he said that after an initial shock, business started coming back.

Recycle

Chicago's Divvy program pays it's own operating costs, but some capital for bikes and docking stations came from a mix of private and public finds, like the Federal CMAQ program.

Alta is the operator, but it's owned by CDOT.

Personally I don't have a problem with using public funds to pay for part of Bike Share. Every Bike Share trip is one less motorized trip. There is less air pollution, less wear and tear on streets, less need for parking, and there are public health benefits. It is a valuable addition to public transportation, like a rail or bus system.

scott967

Alta Planning & Design lives off of government contracts. As a consultant they are probably like most other consultants dependent on that source of income. Trying to run an operating business like Alta Bike Share is probably out of their depth. Their problems with 8D/Bixi are probably just a sample of other problems going on there.

scott s.
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CommuteCommando

I am not objecting to citybike. I am just saying that I am not someone who would use it. The original post on this was about citybike needing funding. I am not confident that it it could be profitable. It would probably require a lot more people like me abandoning their personal bikes to pay for citybikes. I would not invest in it.

cafzali

They already have sold naming rights, so it's going to be hard to get others onboard. Secondly, they vastly overestimated how many tourists would use it and it's that one-time revenue that helps make up for the lower revenue of the regular users. Pleading poverty is classic NY, but that's because NY's budget situations are bad much of the time. Until we get an environment that has a lower cost structure across the board, this will be the case. Our government costs exceed inflation growth every single year.

I-Like-To-Bike

Do you really believe people like you, me, or the typical posters of BF, and A&S in particular, are representative of the target short or long term customers for NYC CitiBike?

I don't believe so except for a few posters who actually live in or commute (by any mode) into Manhattan or might occasionally visit the City.

I-Like-To-Bike

As do a score ( or more) of muti-billion dollar organizations. What is your point?

CommuteCommando

qed

I have worked for business that went under because the principles would fall so in love with an idea, that they were unwilling to let go, or change their thinking in spite of real data.

I am not some ultra conservative "no public funding for anything" type. I support subsidized transit; from paved roads to buses and trains. Where this fails is that not everyone is going to have buying a $200k bus as an option. So many are going to have buying a $200 bike as an option that the amount of subsidy required to make Citi Bike viable may be inappropriate.

FBinNY 

You've hit the nail on the head, not squarely but close enough.

Bikeshare isn't about biking, it's about transport. As such it fits between walking and taxi or mass transit.

City dwellers and Manhattan dwellers in particular walk a lot. Everyone sets a sort of mental range within which they'll hoof it, and beyond which they'll use transit of some kind. When I lived downtown, my range was about 1-1/2 miles or 25 minutes. It was as much about time as distance, so farther points were usually best reached with transit, and closer points were faster by walking. In NYC there's also the issue of going north/south which is how the subway lines run (with exceptions) vs crosstown, which is a PIA for any kind of transit. So distance aside, moves involving a crosstown leg had a bias toward walking, which was just about unavoidable.

BTW- even though I was an active cyclist while living downtown, I usually walked all short trips (LT 1 mile) because the bike was set up for long sport rides, and not to carrying stuff, and anyway was often too much trouble to bother with (carry downstairs, and worry while its locked up).

So getting back to bikeshare. It fills the gap between too far to walk, and too close to taxi. It's perfectly convenient for those trips in the 1/4 mile and 2 mile range (or more). It's especially convenient for the last mile such as crosstown if using mass transit. In short it fills a gap. It's the same role whether one is a regular cyclist or not much of one at all, but can still turn pedals.

So what's that convenience worth? That's for the market to decide, but the current $99/year is 30 cents per day, about 6% the cost of a single round trip by bus or subway, less than 1/2 donut, about 1/6th of what people spend for their cellphone. Obviously this is one hell of a bargain for anyone who uses it more than occasionally.

Citibike problem is simply one of pricing and government regulation. Right now they're caught between an unsustainable price schedule and a city that won't (shouldn't IMO) subsidize, and yet won't allow a price change. Something will give, but I expect that one way or another, even through a bankruptcy and sale to new operator, bikeshare will continue in NYC for quite a while.

scott967

That their competence is in knowing whom to please to get more contracts, not in running a rental bike business. And since they are not a multi-billion dollar business, they probably don't have much room for error and are under-capitalized for this sort of thing.

scott s.
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CommuteCommando

There is the matter of existing infrastructure; buses and subways. Why rent a bike to ride in NYC traffic, possibly arriving at your destination sweaty and tired. This is not an issue to those of us who are seasoned cyclists. Then again, that is a demographic that is very likely to have their own bikes, and prefer to use them.

Have you ever watched The Shark Tank? I wonder what Mark Cuban would say about this? My guess is that it wouldn’t be a lot different from what I am saying.

There are some things government does better than private enterprise. If urban bus systems, or the inter-city commuter rail that I use, were to be run entirely for profit, there would be no such service. Education run for profit ultimately devolves into McEducation. I know this from personal experience, having taught at a “technical institute” with the best reputation money can buy-you’ve probably seen the ads. Those ads are a huge part of where their revenue is spent. As little as possible goes into the classroom.

I have dealt with our public transit agencies out here, and I assure you that I am under no illusion that they are efficient and well run.

Vintage_Cyclist

NY Daily News:

Citi Bike operators doing shabby job of maintaining bikes and docking stations; money problems cited

FBinNY 

You don't live in NYC. Subway stops are typically 1/2 mile apart, and the subways don't go crosstown. There's also the issue of long headways (time between trains) during the day, so the subways don't serve short trips well. Surface transit during the day can also be very slow, especially buses. As I said bikeshare fills the gap between short and longer distance trips, which would otherwise be a long walk.

In any case, there's no reason to debate whether people will use bike share, that's been proven. What's not been proven is how much people will pay to use it.

BTW- let's be clear. I'm not supporting the current operator, or suggesting that anybody else do that. It's up to the operator to solve his operational, pricing and cash flow problems. If he can't, there's a process for turning the assets over to an operator who can do better.

BUT- the one thing that there's no question about is that bikeshare serves a need for which there's proven demand. The rest is about doing it profitably. If Citibike can't, there are others who could.

vol

CommuteCommando, the buses in NYC stop about every two blocks (not to mention the freezing air condition in the summer, and some of the rudest drivers I've met), and when there is a wheelchair-bound person getting on/off, everyone on the bus has to wait for several minutes. The subway stinks. Cabs are costly and not for short distance. Bikes are ideal for many situations; it is also extremely low-cost, and healthy. You can see a lot of bored/unhappy faces on the buses and subway, but almost everyone on the bike looks cheerful.

I doubt I'll ever become a seasoned cyclist; nonetheless, I've never arrived at my destination sweaty and tired.

JoeyBike

The cost of maintenance will eventually kill CitiBike. You can't outsource labor. In a year or two their bikes will be needing serious overhauls and that will be that. It was a fairly dumb idea in the first place IMO. I look forward to the day when I don't have to hear about them any more.

Joe Perez

Coming from another annual subscriber, I'd argue that it is.

I mean, consider the alternative. I'd posit that the majority of those who work in Manhattan hold an unlimited ride Metrocard, which costs $112 in the 30-day variety. Were it not for Citibike, I'd probably have one myself. They could triple the price of an annual pass, and it would still cost less than 1/4 as much as the next-nearest alternative.



Sidebar, I recently came across the following image, and I must now make it my mission to seek out and ride Citibike # 00995:

Chicago Al 

^ That ought to be a promo for not only Citibike but any urban cycling program. Two of the coolest performers in the world, both of them old enough to be well past the point of taking themselves too seriously. We were lucky enough to see them in one of the two plays they were doing back-to-back on Broadway this winter, Pinter's 'No Man's Land.' They were magnetic on stage.

Back on topic: interesting how the posters local to NYC can actually debate Citibike's merits and issues on point, while some more lets-say-distant observers don't even seem to understand how it works. It's almost like the internet doesn't make everyone knowledgeable about everything. Could that possibly be?

mr_bill

Hubway A-OK.

"But in Boston last week, Hubway opened for its fourth season with a rosy financial prognosis, a fresh contract between the City of Boston and bike-share operators, an expectation that the system will continue turning a profit, and plans for 10 new stations."

-mr. bill