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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    This case isn't about cyclists legally and safely using the road, this case is about one person on a bike creating a problem on those roads on a regular basis. I'm sure other cyclists are using those roads, and apparently without issue as there has been no mention of others creating issues.
    ? So if a bunch of other cyclists joined her, that would change the legality?

    Using a public road in a way that draws numerous complaints, citations, and significantly disrupts the flow of traffic is not safe or legal regardless of the method of use.
    Baloney. If everyone else is driving above the speed limit and I'm driving 55 mph in the right hand lane, and police ticket me because they want to, it doesn't change the fact that I am driving safely and legally.

    ETA: FWIW, here is an article giving the results of the injunction hearing.
    Last edited by benjdm; 04-30-14 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #52
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    I fail to see how receiving numerous complaints and citations is an indicator of safe lawful road use. There are many different folks here who use many different riding techniques, we may disagree on principal, but how many of us have received numerous complaints and citations doing what we do?

    Equal rights and responsibilities, sounds like she is ignoring the latter.

  3. #53
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Why did she lose her license?
    Most people don't have their license taken away because they are being safe on the roadways...

    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    She's a cyclist, obeying the law, operating in a safe manner.
    You are joking right?

    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    Has she been hit by a car yet? Or crashed, that you know of?
    Yet.. That's the key word here.. I assume she has not been hit yet because safe drivers are seeing her for now.. I doub't that she has not been hit yet because she is being safe...

    Calling what she is doing safe is pretty laughable..

    My .02

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by raqball View Post
    Most people don't have their license taken away because they are being safe on the roadways...
    So you don't know...


    Quote Originally Posted by raqball View Post
    You are joking right?
    Nope. If people are slowing down behind her, she's riding safe. They are cerainly seeing her... Would you prefer they passed her illegally or too close for safety?


    Quote Originally Posted by raqball View Post
    Yet.. That's the key word here.. I assume she has not been hit yet because safe drivers are seeing her for now.. I doub't that she has not been hit yet because she is being safe...

    Calling what she is doing safe is pretty laughable...
    No one has been hit, everyone is driving safely. What's the big deal? Motorists are being inconvenienced by other motorists who refuse to allow those slowing for a cyclist to pass safely.

    BTW, judge shot down an injunction sought by LEO:

    The judge ruled in favor of Schill and she will be able to continue her U.S. 27 commutes.

    Bicycles are defined as vehicles under state law and have the right to be on roadways.
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  5. #55
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    BTW, judge shot down an injunction sought by LEO:

    The judge ruled in favor of Schill and she will be able to continue her U.S. 27 commutes.
    Fully expected.... And it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of the case..

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by raqball View Post
    Fully expected.... And it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of the case..
    In the grand scheme of the case where violations were issued to her, it means that she is riding legally. If it was imminently dangerous and unsafe, don't you think the judge would have ruled in favor of the injunction...?
    I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.

  7. #57
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    In the grand scheme of the case where violations were issued to her, it means that she is riding legally. If it was imminently dangerous and unsafe, don't you think the judge would have ruled in favor of the injunction...?
    Nope....

  8. #58
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    There's that nasty catch all, "safe and prudent". Just because something is legal doesn't automatically make it safe and prudent at all times and places.

    It will be interesting to see who gets involved with this.

  9. #59
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    There's that nasty catch all, "safe and prudent". Just because something is legal doesn't automatically make it safe and prudent at all times and places.

    It will be interesting to see who gets involved with this.
    This court case no matter how it's decided will probably be appealed... And then maybe appealed again, and again..

    I'd assume that no matter what the outcome is that the state and / or city will amend the current traffic code(s) as a result of this.. Even if she wins this case, the state or city will more than likely act in some manner that will have an adverse effect on all the other cyclists in the area..

    In the end, when all the dust has settled, she is the bad apple that will spoil the rest..

    My .02

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
    In the grand scheme of the case where violations were issued to her, it means that she is riding legally. If it was imminently dangerous and unsafe, don't you think the judge would have ruled in favor of the injunction...?
    In my layman's understanding, you normally can only succeed in a preliminary injunction if you can show probable harm in the action, and that you're likely to succeed in the case. A couple of other things, but yes having the injunction denied likely means that the judge didn't think it was imminently dangerous for the public, or that the city didn't have a really strong case that they were likely to win.

    Having a preliminary injunction slapped on you is bad news. Failing to get one, not so much, because lawyers are always trying that without much expectation of success, again in my lay opinion.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    I fail to see how receiving numerous complaints and citations is an indicator of safe lawful road use. There are many different folks here who use many different riding techniques, we may disagree on principal, but how many of us have received numerous complaints and citations doing what we do?

    Equal rights and responsibilities, sounds like she is ignoring the latter.
    Or it could be that she's doing the best she can on a busy road, and drivers who object to whatever delay she's creating keep complaining and the cops do what they can.

    She does have the right to ride in a lane on that road. The issue before the court is whether the impact of her exercise of that right is enough to warrant restricting it. The other issue is whether the citations issued represent legitimate reckless driving or harassment with the intent of making her go away.

    If the prosecutor is to be believed that it's about her own safety, who determines whether alternatives are in fact safer, and what would be reasonable in terms of inconvenience?
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    Or it could be that she's doing the best she can on a busy road, and drivers who object to whatever delay she's creating keep complaining and the cops do what they can.

    She does have the right to ride in a lane on that road. The issue before the court is whether the impact of her exercise of that right is enough to warrant restricting it. The other issue is whether the citations issued represent legitimate reckless driving or harassment with the intent of making her go away.

    If the prosecutor is to be believed that it's about her own safety, who determines whether alternatives are in fact safer, and what would be reasonable in terms of inconvenience?
    Fortunately I'm not in the position to make those decisions, and I don't claim to have the answers. I just know I would have found a better solution, and can appreciate the point of view of the the motorists and public officials.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    Fortunately I'm not in the position to make those decisions, and I don't claim to have the answers. I just know I would have found a better solution, and can appreciate the point of view of the the motorists and public officials.
    I agree, and earlier posted that I hoped the judge would have Solomon's wisdom. Whether it's road use, or anything else, these rights of the individual vs. their impact on others are delicate balancing act.

    I asked a friend, who's a judge and he took only seconds to tell me what he'd do.. --- recuse himself on the basis of being a cyclist and having unconscious bias.
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  14. #64
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    I think she is in for a long haul of court action(s).. If she wins this case it will get appealed (I assume) and I'd imagine changes to the laws/codes will be made. Putting her right back at square one..

    If she looses then I doubt she has the funds to continue the case via appeals. Also, if she looses she will face the fines of the 3 citations..

    If I were in her shoes? I make a deal on one charge for the other two to be dropped.. In the deal perhaps something can be worked out along the lines of the city / county / state doing regular clean up of the shoulder...

    I don't see this ending well for KY cyclists be that by court action or by amended statutes / codes..

  15. #65
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    I have been commuting 27 Nicholasville road every workday for several years. I have had no conflicts or close calls with motorists. No unusual police attention. The road shoulder is very wide and is only interrupted by a few right full turn lanes at intersections. I have ridden with Ms. Schill and other regular commuters on this road. This is my take on why she is being ticketed and getting complaints. She is (legally) leaving the shoulder and taking the traffic lane forcing the "posted 55 mph traffic" to slow down VERY quickly. Horns and pandemonium is the reaction I have seen happen to this bicyclist. I feel keeping my line position from the shoulder lane into the extra right turn lane is the safest for me. The much fewer cars turning right are already braking and watching for that turn lane. I pick my battles and take my lane rights more in city slower traffic. I can't imagine not riding without a rear viewing mirror for last minute safety decisions.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kybicycle01 View Post
    I have been commuting 27 Nicholasville road every workday for several years. I have had no conflicts or close calls with motorists. No unusual police attention. The road shoulder is very wide and is only interrupted by a few right full turn lanes at intersections. I have ridden with Ms. Schill and other regular commuters on this road. This is my take on why she is being ticketed and getting complaints. She is (legally) leaving the shoulder and taking the traffic lane forcing the "posted 55 mph traffic" to slow down VERY quickly. Horns and pandemonium is the reaction I have seen happen to this bicyclist. I feel keeping my line position from the shoulder lane into the extra right turn lane is the safest for me. The much fewer cars turning right are already braking and watching for that turn lane. I pick my battles and take my lane rights more in city slower traffic. I can't imagine not riding without a rear viewing mirror for last minute safety decisions.
    Thanks for posting your eyes on report about the road conditions and your impressions of the cycling issue.

  17. #67
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    raqball said: This court case no matter how it's decided will probably be appealed... And then maybe appealed again, and again..

    I'd assume that no matter what the outcome is that the state and / or city will amend the current traffic code(s) as a result of this.. Even if she wins this case, the state or city will more than likely act in some manner that will have an adverse effect on all the other cyclists in the area..

    In the end, when all the dust has settled, she is the bad apple that will spoil the rest..

    My .02
    Just like the Black Hawk, CO case ended badly for all cyclists, right? Oh wait, that case ended with the Colorado Supreme Court reaffirming cyclists right to travel.

    Many of the cyclists that raqball calls bad apples, have helped cycling by standing up against misguided motorist, cops and prosecutors in other jurisdictions.

    If this lady cyclist just gives in, then all cyclists really do lose to the misguided motorist, cops and prosecutors. By her standing up, at least there is a fighting chance for a win.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  18. #68
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
    There's that nasty catch all, "safe and prudent". Just because something is legal doesn't automatically make it safe and prudent at all times and places.

    It will be interesting to see who gets involved with this.
    There is no point to this post. Your "safe and prudent" is just a straw man.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  19. #69
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I agree, and earlier posted that I hoped the judge would have Solomon's wisdom. Whether it's road use, or anything else, these rights of the individual vs. their impact on others are delicate balancing act.

    I asked a friend, who's a judge and he took only seconds to tell me what he'd do.. --- recuse himself on the basis of being a cyclist and having unconscious bias.
    The flip side would be any judge who is a motorist should recuse themselves on the basis of having an unconscious bias.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  20. #70
    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kybicycle01 View Post
    I have been commuting 27 Nicholasville road every workday for several years. I have had no conflicts or close calls with motorists. No unusual police attention. The road shoulder is very wide and is only interrupted by a few right full turn lanes at intersections. I have ridden with Ms. Schill and other regular commuters on this road. This is my take on why she is being ticketed and getting complaints. She is (legally) leaving the shoulder and taking the traffic lane forcing the "posted 55 mph traffic" to slow down VERY quickly. Horns and pandemonium is the reaction I have seen happen to this bicyclist. I feel keeping my line position from the shoulder lane into the extra right turn lane is the safest for me. The much fewer cars turning right are already braking and watching for that turn lane. I pick my battles and take my lane rights more in city slower traffic. I can't imagine not riding without a rear viewing mirror for last minute safety decisions.
    Thanks for sharing what a reasonable and safe cyclist does on that exact same road!

    I hope that her actions don't end up causing you, and other safe and reasonable KY cyclist to much grief..

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
    The flip side would be any judge who is a motorist should recuse themselves on the basis of having an unconscious bias.
    You do understand that this was a facetious reply from my judge friend. His way of saying this is a tough case he wouldn't want to have to rule on.

    However being a driver woudn't be a reason for a judge to recuse himself, since that covers the vast bulk of the American population.
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  22. #72
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    raqball said: I think she is in for a long haul of court action(s).. If she wins this case it will get appealed (I assume) and I'd imagine changes to the laws/codes will be made. Putting her right back at square one..
    Unlikely the prosecutor would appeal this case. Can anyone cite a similar situation of law changes that have actually been enacted due to a case like this.

    Some changes in regulations have been made, but all those stomped down pretty quickly.

    Law changes in Colorado went strongly in favor of cyclist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    You do understand that this was a facetious reply from my judge friend. His way of saying this is a tough case he wouldn't want to have to rule on.

    However being a driver woudn't be a reason for a judge to recuse himself, since that covers the vast bulk of the American population.
    You understand one joke but not the other. Oh well.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  24. #74
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kybicycle01 View Post
    I have been commuting 27 Nicholasville road every workday for several years. I have had no conflicts or close calls with motorists. No unusual police attention. The road shoulder is very wide and is only interrupted by a few right full turn lanes at intersections. I have ridden with Ms. Schill and other regular commuters on this road. This is my take on why she is being ticketed and getting complaints. She is (legally) leaving the shoulder and taking the traffic lane forcing the "posted 55 mph traffic" to slow down VERY quickly. Horns and pandemonium is the reaction I have seen happen to this bicyclist. I feel keeping my line position from the shoulder lane into the extra right turn lane is the safest for me. The much fewer cars turning right are already braking and watching for that turn lane. I pick my battles and take my lane rights more in city slower traffic. I can't imagine not riding without a rear viewing mirror for last minute safety decisions.
    Others will strongly applaud you, but you do realize that you are breaking the law by traveling straight through from a right turn only lane.

    It also encourages right hooks that many cyclist choose to avoid by taking the through lane.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

  25. #75
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Goettl said his motion was not about citing bicyclists using Jessamine County roadways but instead about the safety of all Jessamine County motorists.
    Seems the only concern is for motorist.
    Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.

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