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  1. #26
    Senior Member Northwestrider's Avatar
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    No. No. Their reasoning is merely an excuse, period.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nycycle View Post

    Would we be better off, if we had to register bicycles?
    I'm already paying excise taxes (yearly car tax in MA) on 5 vehicles, don't need another tax.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    If roads are paid for from fuel taxes alone it's a fair point. Assuming there isn't a team of bean counters somewhere making sure that only some forms of tax get ring-fenced for roads it's probably safe to say they are funded from taxation in general. So a cyclist who stops and buys a cake will pay some form of sales taxes, probably in proportion to the damage their bike causes. Cyclists who rack up large mileages will buy more cereal bars and jelly babies, so pay more in taxes to fund the damage they cause to the roads.

    Seems perfectly fair to me.

    No, it's not a fair point.

    I even posted a link as to why it's not a fair point: money is fungible. If you think "it's a fair point", you don't understand that about money.

    And we know roads aren't paid for with "fuel taxes" or "road taxes" anyway.

  4. #29
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Cyclists already pay for much more than their fair share of the road use. We actually subsidize car use. So, no, this is not a good idea.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  5. #30
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    No, it's not a fair point.

    I even posted a link as to why it's not a fair point: money is fungible. If you think "it's a fair point", you don't understand that about money.

    And we know roads aren't paid for with "fuel taxes" or "road taxes" anyway.
    Money being fungible is nothing to do with it. Your money and my money are fungible but I don't imagine you'd be too keen on an arrangement that let me spend your money if I ran out of my own.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  6. #31
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    Absolutely not! One of the reasons I do not have a Drivers License is in protest of the exorbitant license fees, registration fees, the cost of fuel, and the way they use all this as a tool of oppression.

    "I will give up my bicycles when they pry my cold, dead, aged and somewhat overweight butt from the saddle."

  7. #32
    Senior Member rydabent's Avatar
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    NO!!!!!! How about we register baseball bats and footballs!!!!

  8. #33
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Oh sure of course.... register guns, shoes, bicycles, sexual preference, setup cameras in your homes so big brother can monitor your private body language.


    Why isn't this thread in PO?!?!?

  9. #34
    Senior Member okane's Avatar
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    I'm all for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Look, we'll pay just a little and the government will return our money in the form better roads for bicycles, safety innovations, and more.

    I'm sure any programs they initiate will be as good as the services the government provides to wounded soldiers (You know, those soldiers who gave up their lives and bodies for the same scumbag polictians and bureacrafts who are entrusted to help them but basically do nothing but stonewall!!!!!).

    Yup, I'm all in favor of giving everything I own to the government, and letting them decide what's best for me!


    Sorry for the rant, I read this thread just after watching yet another news cast about our neglected vets.
    Last edited by okane; 07-21-14 at 05:53 PM.

  10. #35
    Señior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    If the registration fees were made to be proportional to the infrastructure required and the damage done to roadways by vehicles, then if a passenger vehicle was charged $100 registration, a bicycle would probably be charged about 50 cents. I would guess that if the charge was much less than $10 it wouldn't even pay for the administrative cost of registration.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  11. #36
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nycycle View Post
    In fact a new law adds $100 per year to the registration costs of electric or bi-fuel cars, just because they do not pay at the pump.
    Well, that does work out to be about the right amount. If we assume that an average economy car averages 12,000 miles per year and gets 30 mpg, that's 400 gallons/year. Gasoline taxes in Utah are $0.25/gallon, so that's ... $100.

    Though that's likely to be a bit unfair to a plug in hybrid.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Well, that does work out to be about the right amount. If we assume that an average economy car averages 12,000 miles per year and gets 30 mpg, that's 400 gallons/year. Gasoline taxes in Utah are $0.25/gallon, so that's ... $100.

    Though that's likely to be a bit unfair to a plug in hybrid.
    The UK registration (aka Vehicle Excise Duty [VED]) is based on vehicle emissions, so very small engined cars and electric vehicles have zero VED.

    On the other hand, if if there is a tax on electricity, electric vehicle owners are being subject to double taxation

  13. #38
    Interested Backpacker
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    Okay, this will be a voice on the other side. One that will sure to raise some eyebrows.

    I am am one who is concerned by our trend in society to ask for something, without paying the cost of such requests. We see it all the time on specialty road projects. Someone on the complete other side of the state asked to pay for specialty road project (tunnels, express lanes, etc...) in a metropolitan area on the other side of the state. And when the local residents of that metro area are asked to subsidize that tunnel with a toll....aha, the screaming starts.

    So goes the requests of us cyclists. We want the dedicated bike lanes, maybe the segregated multipurpose lane, and hey, some directional signs would be nice too. So, how does this get paid for?

    Now I figure there are a few who are questioning my motives on this post. So here goes.... I am that main stream cyclist who has a family and a wife that does not feel safe riding on roadways, but realizes that their fears are valid and does wish for segregated lanes for them to access as they learn the wonders of riding on two wheels. I on the other hand, feel completely safe on a roadway as I ride smartly and defensively.

    So back to the original thought...., how do we pay for something that we all realize is needed. I like the idea of the earlier posting in regards to excise taxes..., or user taxes. How about municipal bonds for commuter trails and fees levied later to meet those obligations. Once again, we need to be smart and focus on the users with tire size of greater than 26" and not penalize our youthful riders. We need to encourage future generations to take up the natural transportation alternatives of the bicycle. But we need to be fiscally responsible to provide these safe pathways for these future generations.

    Time for us to figure out how to step up to the plate and contribute to our current and future ridership goals.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullcount View Post

    I am am one who is concerned by our trend in society to ask for something, without paying the cost of such requests. ...
    Time for us to figure out how to step up to the plate and contribute to our current and future ridership goals.
    There's something to your idea, except that bicycle registration is the least efficient way to fund anything. The administration costs will eat deeply into the dough raised, leaving nothing for the raison d'etre.

    I'll leave it there on the efficiency argument, and not get into how to decide on infrastructure projects and who should pay.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    There's something to your idea, except that bicycle registration is the least efficient way to fund anything. The administration costs will eat deeply into the dough raised, leaving nothing for the raison d'etre.

    I'll leave it there on the efficiency argument, and not get into how to decide on infrastructure projects and who should pay.
    exactly....

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullcount View Post
    So back to the original thought...., how do we pay for something that we all realize is needed.
    You pay for it by stopping the free ride motorists have been having on the public purse (and planet). You idea only has merit if it was already a level playing field, but its not.

  17. #42
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    Bicyclist killed in Va. Beach had survived '08 crash | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

    i knew that my response would gather some opposition, it is to be expected. But much like Yugyug's comment, we all to often forget that some motorists have the same opinion about cyclists - that we are free loaders on the public highway system.

    I am am not suggesting that licensing or registration is the answer. Maybe excise taxes or user fees on road bikes with wheels greater than 26"', recumbents and possibly mountain bikes to help off set the cost of trail maintenance in our national forests.

    The link posted above is from 2009 when a cyclist was killed on Shore Drive in Virginia Beach. Unfortunately, he was not the last as there have been several more fatalities on this stretch of road. Within the last year, a dedicated cycling lane with a rumble strip has been added to this section in order to separate the cyclist and the motorists from each other.

    Only after multiple fatalities did the city council act. Who really paid for that cycling lane? Those who,lost their lives? When do we, the cyclists that need those protective road designs, act?

    As as you read this article, you will see the cyclist had been using this route in the early morning hours and visibility might have come into play. You will also,learn this cyclist has been commuting 30 miles to work via this route. And he is not the only one as this section of road connects the Virginia Beach oceanfront with a popular state beach park 15 miles away.

    Bottom line is that if we want to speak for the next generation of riders who come after us, we have to be proactive in our resolve to provide for safer routes at the local level. Certain localities have gotten the concept correct. Minneapolis, Northern Virginia, Portland, Williamsburg, etc.....

    Why should we expect things to happen without us ponying up the funds or the sweat equity to make it happen. We have to get out of the screaming match between motorist and cyclists and be responsible for our own requests. Daddy once said, nothing in life is free son..., I guess that cycling infrastructure is the same. You cannot pay for it with lost souls as the multiple riders have done on Shore Drive in Va Beach.
    Last edited by Fullcount; 08-18-14 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Typo

  18. #43
    Senior Member Clyde1820's Avatar
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    IMO, property and other in-place taxing mechanisms ought to be enough to fund basic infrastructure in a town or city. To the extent it wants to incorporate sidewalks, a city doesn't need to "register" all pedestrians and tax them directly; for bike lanes, it doesn't need to register and tax bicycles; for dog catchers, it doesn't need to register dogs and tax their owners directly; etc.

    Simply appreciate that the value of mixed-mode traveling within the city has increased value and reduced strain on resources when it supports efficient flow via each of those modes. Then, tax and issue bonds to support the creation and maintenance of such things.

  19. #44
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    I think that the mentality of cyclists being free riders is more a convenient excuse for hating on cyclists by impatient motorists. Mostly its an easy thing to say instead of I hate bicycles on the road because they get in my way. By using the free rider excuse the hating motorist can feel morally superior. Note I believe this a very small minority of motorists, mostly they just go about their business paying no heed.
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  20. #45
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    Ok - user fees following a municipal bond.

    Qu. 1 Who would buy the bond?

    Drivers? - they object to cyclists mostly on principal (so-called). They would only buy them if there was a decent return
    Cyclists? - they already pay for the roads from local taxation, be that property, state sales tax on goods or fuel, so the building of a few miles (they should be so lucky) of segregated lanes and/or MUPs to be paid for on top of the roads they would still have to ride on - no chance.

    User fees? - How much would MUPs/segregated cycle lanes cost per mile to build. MUPs? $250k/$350k/mile? To be entirely fair to riders, you would also have to charge pedestrians who use them. Segregated cycle lanes? Depends on how segregated - and just think of the howls of drivers who see riders sailing past them in the rush hour. How would you charge them if they're not separated from the highway?

    So what do you think the charges would have to be to repay the cost of the municipal bonds?

    Highways are a public good, aka, necessity regardless of the nature and income of the user, whether they're on foot, bike, m/bike, car, van, pickup, truck or whatever. As a public good the cost needs to be met by the taxpayer, whether individual or corporate and separating one particular kind of user from the rest, especially if they are already paying, in one way or another would be seriously unjust and unworkable

  21. #46
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullcount View Post
    So goes the requests of us cyclists. We want the dedicated bike lanes, maybe the segregated multipurpose lane, and hey, some directional signs would be nice too. So, how does this get paid for? .
    The bike lanes and separate tracks are for the benefit of motorists to get cyclists out of the way so the motorists can travel faster.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
    The bike lanes and separate tracks are for the benefit of motorists to get cyclists out of the way so the motorists can travel faster.
    I find they improve my riding experience where congestion or high speed differentials are a factor.

  23. #48
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    Our elected officials are idiots,they should be taxing dog and cat crap.....There's 100's of times more pet owners than bike owners......
    Everything should be as simple as possible...But not more so.---Albert Einstein

  24. #49
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    How do you pay for infrastructure? Raise taxes on everyone to reasonable levels again.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson), 1973 Wes Mason, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  25. #50
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fullcount View Post
    ...
    Why should we expect things to happen without us ponying up the funds or the sweat equity to make it happen. We have to get out of the screaming match between motorist and cyclists and be responsible for our own requests. Daddy once said, nothing in life is free son..., I guess that cycling infrastructure is the same. You cannot pay for it with lost souls as the multiple riders have done on Shore Drive in Va Beach.
    Because we already reduce the maintenance required, the amount of parking spaces required, and health costs to the society. We're already paying for the roads in general fund taxes, and, most of us, in gas taxes and vehicle taxes. So no, the infrastructure isn't free but neither is our contribution.

    You don't tax the behavior you want to encourage, especially when it's already saving you money.

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