Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-20-14, 10:33 PM   #26
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by yugyug View Post
Seems to me that his comment from the article:

"the sleeping giant proportion of aging carbon components not designed for lifetime use."

is worth more discussion than lawyer lips.
Yes, I agree, and tried to get some industry discussions going on the topic years ago. Nobody cares. I suspect they're hoping to keep stuff from aging in service by getting folks to upgrade regularly.

More and more the bike business seems to be taking cues from the computer and ipod worlds.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-14, 11:30 PM   #27
scott967
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Oahu, HI
Bikes: 89 Paramount OS 84 Fuji Touring Series III New! 2013 Focus Izalco Ergoride
Posts: 545
Haven't ever had any problems with QRs, but didn't see any way to get rid of LL on carbon dropout. Now that I have had to live with them for 6 mos., I got in the habit of unscrewing 4 complete revolutions every time and it's now second nature. 4 revs and close the lever.

scott s.
.
scott967 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-14, 04:24 AM   #28
bmontgomery87
Senior Member
 
bmontgomery87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Roanoke, Va
Bikes: 2013 leader 721. 2015 leader 725. 2012 fuji feather
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by italktocats View Post
he also writes about braking is giving up any control over your bike how can i take that seriously?
clearly he rides a track bike and knows about the zen feeling

he honestly has a valid point, learning to maneuver is much more effective than panic braking.
bmontgomery87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-14, 06:19 PM   #29
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
clearly he rides a track bike and knows about the zen feeling

he honestly has a valid point, learning to maneuver is much more effective than panic braking.
My standard recommendation about when you must avoid a dangerous situation is to slow down as much as possible in order to be able to turn sharply aside from the problem. Just don't try to simultaneously brake hard and turn; the tires have only so much grip, so use that grip for first one and then the other. That's got me out of crashes when others ahead of me were going down.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-14, 09:32 PM   #30
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by achoo View Post
And if you ever put your bike on a fork-mount roof rack, you'll probably want those lips. Else you're trusting nothing but friction to hold your bike onto the roof of the car at highway speeds and over bumps.
Really. I have an 80s frame w/o lips and although I've used in in my cartop carrier, I avoid it at all costs. I've even been daydreaming of some sort of quick, easy strap I could use as redundancy with that fork. I never worry about the newer frames w/ lips.
Camilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-14, 08:10 AM   #31
sm1960
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 248
Before I became a regular cycist I went out on my bike for a ride. Tuned it up the week before as I wanted to make it a regular thing. My kids (very small) had been playing around my bike and the quick release was undone. Back when it was just a lever, not screwed. I had the wheel come off. 3 broken vertebrae, concussion, wrist surgery, loss of lots of skin, destroyed brand new helmet (first time wearing one). I check it much more frequently now.
sm1960 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 08:14 AM   #32
italktocats
Senior Member
 
italktocats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
clearly he rides a track bike and knows about the zen feeling

he honestly has a valid point, learning to maneuver is much more effective than panic braking.
but its comparing skill with anything but skill, how does that even compare?! its like stating noone should drive a car because theyre hard to control on two wheels at 250mph?
italktocats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 08:19 AM   #33
bmontgomery87
Senior Member
 
bmontgomery87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Roanoke, Va
Bikes: 2013 leader 721. 2015 leader 725. 2012 fuji feather
Posts: 1,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by italktocats View Post
but its comparing skill with anything but skill, how does that even compare?! its like stating noone should drive a car because theyre hard to control on two wheels at 250mph?
i don't really get that analogy. .. he's saying it's better to maneuver than panic brake. we were even taught this in motorcycle safety class, if you can avoid an accident by changing direction, do so.
bmontgomery87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 08:30 AM   #34
italktocats
Senior Member
 
italktocats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
i don't really get that analogy. .. he's saying it's better to maneuver than panic brake. we were even taught this in motorcycle safety class, if you can avoid an accident by changing direction, do so.
its about the fact that a PANIC brake, isnt a braking techique, its slamming the brakes in total fear hoping youll stop before dieing


if you cannot perform a basic stop, you shouldnt be riding anything at all

the statement of 'having to brake makes you lose control' is bull**** since everyone is able to brake, its not some special abilty for the 1% of riders

yes avoiding work, but not always, and it can leave you having to brake for something else; on small street, low speeds braking is in most cases the best option; it pretty much cannot fail (where avoidance can result in more damage than no reaction would have done, case this week; car pulls out, other car avoids, loses control and hits a wall, hitting the brakes was the easiest and best option)
italktocats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 08:47 AM   #35
bmontgomery87
Senior Member
 
bmontgomery87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Roanoke, Va
Bikes: 2013 leader 721. 2015 leader 725. 2012 fuji feather
Posts: 1,003
I get what you're saying now and agree with you.

In most situations I find maneuvering to be much safer, as I hate to stop unannounced.
I had a car back out across my lane yesterday, and went into the other lane instead of braking. I'm always concerned about being rear ended and getting killed. I'd much rather take my chances of always finding an alternate route.(I'm also one of those brakeless fixed gear idiots so that plays a role)
If you can safely brake and come to a stop without sliding or wrecking yourself, that's a fine option.
Everyone has their own opinions and it varies by situation.
bmontgomery87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 09:31 AM   #36
SwampDude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Florida
Bikes: All Treks - fitness and road
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

I've never been happy with this solution because it creates new problems, namely the need to readjust the QR with every wheel removal. Practice before the lips came into vogue, was to use QR nuts that were tight on the skewer and didn't change position. That meant that the user only had to throw the lever.
I'm really trying to understand your perspective regarding "the need to readjust the QR" every time the wheel is reinstalled. Do you object to the additional time required to readjust or is there another facet to this process that I'm not aware of.

I suspect many of us who learned to readjust as a 'normal' step in using QR think nothing of it.

I'm asking because I really didn't know this issue existed until this thread came along.

Thanks.
SwampDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 09:41 AM   #37
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,482
before the advent of lawyer lips, QR skewers almost never needed to be adjusted, that was the whole idea. Nowadays the nuts are designed to be easy to move, so you have to mess around with the adjustment most of the time
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 09:45 AM   #38
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 7,365
Initially lawyer lips annoyed the hell out of me, but I didn't remove wheels often enough to get the ambition to file them.

Then one day I was riding along and looked down to see the lever of the front skewer hanging down flopping around. I don't know if someone tampered with my bike, or if it was an accident on my part, but I decided they weren't so bad after all.
Shimagnolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:00 AM   #39
SwampDude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Florida
Bikes: All Treks - fitness and road
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
before the advent of lawyer lips, QR skewers almost never needed to be adjusted, that was the whole idea. Nowadays the nuts are designed to be easy to move, so you have to mess around with the adjustment most of the time
Sorry to be so dense, but I think you are saying that your opposition to the readjustment is because time is wasted in the process. In other words, the readjustment required with today's QRs is a nuisance, but it doesn't represent a potential hazard as long as the tighten/lockdown process is done properly. Your point about having to mess around with the readjustment "most of the time" only refers to when a wheel has been removed.

Last edited by SwampDude; 05-23-14 at 10:07 AM.
SwampDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:17 AM   #40
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
...so you have to mess around with the adjustment most of the time
How much time (in seconds) do you think is lost per month by most cyclists due to messing around with the adjustment on their QR mechanisms? Conversely, how much time is saved by having QR mechanisms (with or without lawyer lips) on a bicycle over conventional threaded nuts on the axles? Be sure to include time lost due to carrying a weighty wrench (8oz.?) in the cyclist's tool kit.

Point: IMO in most cases QR mechanisms meet the need of enthusiasts' affection for racer-like aesthetics rather than providing any significant advantage for most cyclists in most scenarios.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:03 AM   #41
hotbike
Senior Member
 
hotbike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Long Island, New York
Bikes: a lowrider BMX, a mountain bike, a faired recumbent, and a loaded touring bike
Posts: 2,835
ATTENTION BICYCLE DEALERS:

Give the Novice Class Cyclists "special" Bikes with Solid Axles, and 15mm Axle Nuts.

IF they don't know how to use a Wrench, they probably can't learn to use a Quick Release without difficulty.

IIRC, almost ALL Bikes were sold with Solid Axles in the 1970's, and the QR's became popular in the Eighties.

We Never had a problem. Had to carry a wrench, we were instructed to pick the Bike up and shake it, Before riding, and if the Wheel Fell Off...

You must have forgot to tighten the Axle Nuts! Good thing you checked, you could've gotten killed!
hotbike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 12:28 PM   #42
John Forester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
Sorry to be so dense, but I think you are saying that your opposition to the readjustment is because time is wasted in the process. In other words, the readjustment required with today's QRs is a nuisance, but it doesn't represent a potential hazard as long as the tighten/lockdown process is done properly. Your point about having to mess around with the readjustment "most of the time" only refers to when a wheel has been removed.
The issue with lawyer lips is not so much the time that they waste when replacing wheels as it is the increased probability of having the wheel come loose, precisely the type of crash that the lawyer lips were designed, badly, to prevent. With the original quick-release system, it was important to take time to properly adjust the quick-release mechanism when first installing the wheel in the fork. That had to be done by rotating the adjusting nut back and forth as the lever was opened and closed, to get the proper adjustment. And that was why the adjusting nut had a high-friction mechanism built into it, so it would turn only when forced by hand. But once that was done, nothing further need be done when the wheel had to be removed and replaced. Unlock the q-r, remove the wheel, replace the tire (or whatever work was required), return the wheel, lock the q-r. That's all, and it was, and is, reliable. (That was the reason that Campagnolo fork tips and rear ends were all machined to the standard thickness. A wheel could be moved from one bike, or from a stock of spares, without having to adjust the quick-release mechanism.) With lawyer lips, the locking adjustment must be destroyed to remove the wheel. The normal unlocking movement does not open the grip sufficiently to allow the hub to be removed from between the lawyer lips. But if, when replacing the wheel, the proper adjustment procedure is not followed, which has to be done every time the wheel is replaced, then the mechanism can come loose.
John Forester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 02:51 PM   #43
SwampDude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Florida
Bikes: All Treks - fitness and road
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
The issue with lawyer lips is not so much the time that they waste when replacing wheels as it is the increased probability of having the wheel come loose, precisely the type of crash that the lawyer lips were designed, badly, to prevent. With the original quick-release system, it was important to take time to properly adjust the quick-release mechanism when first installing the wheel in the fork. That had to be done by rotating the adjusting nut back and forth as the lever was opened and closed, to get the proper adjustment. And that was why the adjusting nut had a high-friction mechanism built into it, so it would turn only when forced by hand. But once that was done, nothing further need be done when the wheel had to be removed and replaced. Unlock the q-r, remove the wheel, replace the tire (or whatever work was required), return the wheel, lock the q-r. That's all, and it was, and is, reliable. (That was the reason that Campagnolo fork tips and rear ends were all machined to the standard thickness. A wheel could be moved from one bike, or from a stock of spares, without having to adjust the quick-release mechanism.) With lawyer lips, the locking adjustment must be destroyed to remove the wheel. The normal unlocking movement does not open the grip sufficiently to allow the hub to be removed from between the lawyer lips. But if, when replacing the wheel, the proper adjustment procedure is not followed, which has to be done every time the wheel is replaced, then the mechanism can come loose.
Thanks, John.

Since I'm riding bikes built in the past 10 years, I'll rely on your last sentence with editing as follows: If the proper adjustment procedure is followed every time the wheel is replaced, then the mechanism should not come loose.

I've been riding for many years, but I've never come across the 'lawyer lips' issue. I am glad it came up here because I've reviewed the proper QR adjustment procedure and added a QR inspection to my pre-ride checklist.

Have a great holiday weekend. If you ride, be safe; there will be lots of nuts on the road.
SwampDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 02:58 PM   #44
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
Sorry to be so dense, but I think you are saying that your opposition to the readjustment is because time is wasted in the process. In other words, the readjustment required with today's QRs is a nuisance, but it doesn't represent a potential hazard as long as the tighten/lockdown process is done properly. Your point about having to mess around with the readjustment "most of the time" only refers to when a wheel has been removed.
My objection has nothing to do with time or inconvenience, but with good design. The rational for the lips is that folks misuse QRs, and this is a backup. My question, is why anybody would expect someone who can't figure out how to simply flip a lever would be better off having to make another adjustment before simply flipping that lever.

In short, lawyers lips make wheel installation harder not easier, and increase the likelihood of user error.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 03:02 PM   #45
LesterOfPuppets
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rock Springs, WY
Bikes: My War
Posts: 26,359
I'm amazed by how many QRs I find "wingnutted" tight (lever in open position) in my time spent working in not-for-profit bike repair shops.

Dealing with LL's is a bit of a pain but luckily I have bikes with and bikes without. I know if I'm gonna do a drive/ride multi-modal trip, with bike stowed inside the vehicle, I definitely pick a bike that has no lawyer lips for quick and easy wheel removal.

Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 05-23-14 at 03:05 PM.
LesterOfPuppets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 03:15 PM   #46
SwampDude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Florida
Bikes: All Treks - fitness and road
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
My objection has nothing to do with time or inconvenience, but with good design. The rational for the lips is that folks misuse QRs, and this is a backup. My question, is why anybody would expect someone who can't figure out how to simply flip a lever would be better off having to make another adjustment before simply flipping that lever.

In short, lawyers lips make wheel installation harder not easier, and increase the likelihood of user error.
Thanks for the clarification. In my case, I guess ignorance has been bliss.
SwampDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 03:20 PM   #47
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,270
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampDude View Post
Thanks for the clarification. In my case, I guess ignorance has been bliss.
No, it' the opposite. You KNOW how to use a QR which is why it works for you, and therefore don't need the protection of the lips. If you were truly ignorant, and needed them, they wouldn't help much.

IMO lawyers lips are a safety device that only Joseph Heller truly understands.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 05:44 PM   #48
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Bikes: Surly LHT
Posts: 5,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Point: IMO in most cases QR mechanisms meet the need of enthusiasts' affection for racer-like aesthetics rather than providing any significant advantage for most cyclists in most scenarios.
Hollow axles are stronger than solid (nutted) axles. I weigh 150 lbs and broke several solid axles on my beater MTB just hitting potholes in the city. The QR issue is race related for certain, but the hollow axle is so much stronger and perfectly suited to QR or any type of thru-axle (I like pinhead locking skewers).

Also, nutted axles are not foolproof either. Many novices have unwittingly loosened hub lock nuts by not knowing how tighten the nuts holding a bike wheel in place. Then they ride on bearings that are too loose or tight and ruin their hubs. Nutted hubs are def not foolproof by any means. And some people, like my wife, have zero arm/hand strength for twisting a wrench anyway. A properly adjusted QR in the hands of someone with QR education does not have to be gorilla-tight.

Aside: I purchased a beautiful new Cinelli Supercorsa frame in 2009. Hand made in Italy, Ferrari red with lots of chrome bits. Spent WAY too much money on it. The complete build would cost around $7000 at full retail. Guess what - no lawyer tabs. Europeans just let stupid people die. I can see the wisdom in that.
JoeyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 07:23 PM   #49
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
Guess what - no lawyer tabs. Europeans just let stupid people die. I can see the wisdom in that.
I suspect that the percentage of Europeans that commute to work or school or shop daily on bikes equipped with QR is about the same as US bike clubbers who commute on cruiser bikes.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:17 PM   #50
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 11,648
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
My objection has nothing to do with time or inconvenience, but with good design. The rational for the lips is that folks misuse QRs, and this is a backup. My question, is why anybody would expect someone who can't figure out how to simply flip a lever would be better off having to make another adjustment before simply flipping that lever.

In short, lawyers lips make wheel installation harder not easier, and increase the likelihood of user error.
I am surprised that there seems to be only a few of us here that have seen others screw up the wheel replacement because of lawyer lips and thus make cycling less safe.

My coworker is one of those people I have seen, screw it up. How many here, really thinks that the big box stores teach buyers how to deal with wheel replacement?
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:44 AM.