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Thread: Lawyer lips.

  1. #76
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I had the advantage of speaking directly to the people involved. They had zero idea how to use a QR...
    I have worked with "casual" cyclists in retail stores, bike clubs, safety clinics, repair clinics, and at the side of the road, and I am continually astounded at how few laymen cyclists have any clue how a QR skewer works in general, much less specific details on how tight to make them.

    I often wonder how these people ever drove a car to the event, but when i look at how most laymen cyclists attach their bike racks to their cars and their bikes to the racks I get even more frightened.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  2. #77
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I have worked with "casual" cyclists in retail stores, bike clubs, safety clinics, repair clinics, and at the side of the road, and I am continually astounded at how few laymen cyclists have any clue how a QR skewer works in general, much less specific details on how tight to make them.
    More astounding and frightening are the crass bicycling merchandisers who equipped the bikes being sold to the general public and intended for casual cyclists with this non-intuitive, user unfriendly, and unsafe wheel fastening feature.

  3. #78
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    These apply to OEM equipment only, so aftermarket QRs aren't covered. But IMO, makers of aftermarket QRs may be taking legal risks by marketing skewers that don't meet the standard.
    Might be the same legal risk as after market pedals sold without CPSC OEM reflectors. Might be especially applicable to new bikes sold by LBSs with the CPSC standard pedals replaced by aftermarket pedals that do not not meet the standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Might be the same legal risk as after market pedals sold without CPSC OEM reflectors. Might be especially applicable to new bikes sold by LBSs with the CPSC standard pedals replaced by aftermarket pedals that do not not meet the standard.
    The CPSC rules are very clear about the fact that the bike must conform when delivered to the consumer. I was in retail when the rules were passed, and, for example, we delivered pro road bikes with wheel reflectors, which of course most wanted removed. We explained that we couldn't be a part of that, and suggested they could do it at home.

    The rules were vague about when we were free of new bike obligations, so we arbitrarily settled on a few weeks, for selling alternate non conforming parts. But we would never get involved in specifically bringing a bike out of conformance, and wouldn't ever remove reflectors if asked.

    These days, so many non conforming bikes are delivered new. I don't know if there has been a relaxation of the rules, or people are simply ignoring them.
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  5. #80
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I had the advantage of speaking directly to the people involved. They had zero idea how to use a QR, and thought it was that way all along (which we know it wasn't). Odds are it was a case of QR as wingnut, since it was closed tight enough for the lips to hold it in place.

    As for the second. Marking OPEN and CLOSED has been required since the original CPSC standards. These apply to OEM equipment only, so aftermarket QRs aren't covered. But IMO, makers of aftermarket QRs may be taking legal risks by marketing skewers that don't meet the standard.
    All these years of using QR and I never noticed that... (I just went and looked at my bikes), of course my older vintage bike doesn't have such markings, but that was only one bike in my fleet. But indeed you are right, the lever says CLOSED at least on the side I looked. Meanwhile, the consumer apparently doesn't notice it either. So the key question is how do they notice lawyer lips? They can just as easily tighten the "wingnut" down on those small protrusions and essentially have a loose QR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    All these years of using QR and I never noticed that... (I just went and looked at my bikes), of course my older vintage bike doesn't have such markings, but that was only one bike in my fleet. But indeed you are right, the lever says CLOSED at least on the side I looked. Meanwhile, the consumer apparently doesn't notice it either. So the key question is how do they notice lawyer lips? They can just as easily tighten the "wingnut" down on those small protrusions and essentially have a loose QR.
    I'm on record saying that the lips are kludge at best. IMO premising the need on the fact that using a QR is too complex for the uninitiated, then "fixing" the problem by adding an extra step that require yet more skill and knowledge is insanity.

    IMO the old system, of the adjusting nut being hard to turn on the skewer so it retains adjustment, is more reliable, and makes QR use simpler. But what we have now is an example of the saying "a camel is a horse designed by a committee".
    FB
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    These days, so many non conforming bikes are delivered new. I don't know if there has been a relaxation of the rules, or people are simply ignoring them.
    If nothing else a relaxation of ethics by that segment of bicycle retail industry that ignores the safety rules and their responsibilities by delivering unsafe and/or illegal bikes to their customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    If nothing else a relaxation of ethics by that segment of bicycle retail industry that ignores the safety rules and their responsibilities by delivering unsafe and/or illegal bikes to their customers.
    Shockingly I agree with you. Though I don't know if it's a question of loose ethics, or ignorance. Over the last half century there has been a breakdown in our ability to pass along knowledge. Not only in the bike industry but in society in general.
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    WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I'm just saying that there does not exist a perfect system...
    This is true for everything.

    Since a "perfect system" is impossible, a "perfect system" can't be the goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    If nothing else a relaxation of ethics by that segment of bicycle retail industry that ignores the safety rules and their responsibilities by delivering unsafe and/or illegal bikes to their customers.
    That argument assumes that the CPSC regulations actually refer to systems for reducing cyclist injuries. The CPSC regulations started out as BMA requirements to persuade parents that BMA-produced bicycles were durable, and to deflect any requirement for active lighting. When the CPSC adopted the BMA requirements they were turned over to bureaucrats who were both engineering-incompetent and ignorant of cycling, and then into the hands of lawyers who were prepared to defend even arguments that contradicted the laws of physics. As a result, one cannot conclude that any CPSC requirement actually reduces cyclist injuries without making an independent evaluation. The few studies made of the overall effect of the CPSC requirements have concluded that there is no discernible effect.

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    I looked around at Walmart online, and could only see one bike (a road bike) that clearly had a QR (front), though on many it was hard to tell from the DS. But I'm guessing most Walmart bikes use nuts on the axles. If this is typical of big box, then these mal-adjusted QRs must be coming from LBS retailers I would think. Though I suppose like my current ride they could be online purchases (mine - QRs in bag, no pedals, reflectors in bag).

    scott s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    That argument assumes that the CPSC regulations actually refer to systems for reducing cyclist injuries. The CPSC regulations started out as BMA requirements to persuade parents that BMA-produced bicycles were durable, and to deflect any requirement for active lighting. When the CPSC adopted the BMA requirements they were turned over to bureaucrats who were both engineering-incompetent and ignorant of cycling, and then into the hands of lawyers who were prepared to defend even arguments that contradicted the laws of physics. As a result, one cannot conclude that any CPSC requirement actually reduces cyclist injuries without making an independent evaluation. The few studies made of the overall effect of the CPSC requirements have concluded that there is no discernible effect.
    None of the above opinions, history lessons and second guessing alters the fact that U.S. retailers who deliver new bikes to customers that do not meet the Federally mandated standards (whether John Forester approves or not) are in violation of the law; maybe because they are ignorant of the law, don't care, or are unethical or all of the above..

  13. #88
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Since a "perfect system" is impossible, a "perfect system" can't be the goal.
    True. But what are we up against? Lets look at another industry with potentially dangerous toys:

    "For about 70,000 people this year, mowing the lawn will turn into a brush with death or serious injury."

    Any idea how much time, effort, and money goes into safeguards for lawn equipment? Yet people still do silly things like run over their feet, kids, and pets. If they act nonchalant around whirling blades, just how relaxed do you think their minds are when they go for a bike ride?

    We just can't save them all IMO - short of welding the wheels to the bike frame.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    True. But what are we up against? Lets look at another industry with potentially dangerous toys:

    "For about 70,000 people this year, mowing the lawn will turn into a brush with death or serious injury."

    Any idea how much time, effort, and money goes into safeguards for lawn equipment? Yet people still do silly things like run over their feet, kids, and pets. If they act nonchalant around whirling blades, just how relaxed do you think their minds are when they go for a bike ride?

    We just can't save them all IMO - short of welding the wheels to the bike frame.
    Again, the goal isn't to "save them all" (welding the wheels wouldn't do that).

    Arguing that something is "bad" because it isn't perfect doesn't make any sense.

    There isn't much bicycle manufacturers can do about lawn mowers. "Lawyer lips" don't keep people from fixing problems with lawn mowers. So problems with lawn mowers don't seem relevant to bicycles.

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    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    ...problems with lawn mowers don't seem relevant to bicycles.
    OK...let me spell it out:

    People use lawnmowers.

    People use bicycles.

    People are largely stupid and unaware around mechanical things.

    People are going to get hurt using lawnmowers or bicycles and there is very little the rest of us can do about it. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Both industries pull their hair out trying to make their products idiot proof but the idiots keep getting more clever at hurting themselves with lawnmowers and bicycles - both of which are ridiculously simple to operate at a safe level.

    We can't save them all. Let's just go ride our bikes and let Darwin sort us out.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Worknomore View Post
    How flippin hard is it to properly use a quick release? If you can't handle it you should stay away from anything with moving parts.
    In the Navy we had a saying: "You have to be smarter than the equipment you are operating."

  17. #92
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    This thread has wandered more than the Yellowstone hotspot. There are maybe two or three threads in one. Please find a topic and reorganize it if you would.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    OK...let me spell it out:

    People use lawnmowers.

    People use bicycles.

    People are largely stupid and unaware around mechanical things.

    People are going to get hurt using lawnmowers or bicycles and there is very little the rest of us can do about it. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Both industries pull their hair out trying to make their products idiot proof but the idiots keep getting more clever at hurting themselves with lawnmowers and bicycles - both of which are ridiculously simple to operate at a safe level.

    We can't save them all. Let's just go ride our bikes and let Darwin sort us out.
    So, you are saying there is no point in attempting to make things safer (unless the result is "perfect"). Or that any effort made to make things safer requires "pulling one's hair out". Is anybody "pulling their hair out" about "lawyer lips"?

    Is 50 people getting hurt the same as 100 people getting hurt?

    What indications exist to support your claim that "idiots are getting more clever at injuring themselves"?

    You are still arguing that things have to be perfect ("you can't save them all") to be considered even after you agreed that that wasn't the goal. You aren't making sense.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 06-03-14 at 07:26 AM.

  19. #94
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    So, you are saying...
    I am saying exactly what I said.

    You aren't making sense.
    Neither are lawyer tabs (lips). I don't feel any obligation to adjust the entire world to suit the least common denominator among us. I think the USofA is the only country that even cares if someone can't operate a QR skewer (or keep their fingers away from moving lawnmower blades). Litigation is the ONLY reason anybody cares, other than the person losing their teeth when their wheel pops off.

    When we buy lawnmowers, nobody teaches us how to safely use them. Same with QR skewers. If a person is too stoopid to detect a loose wheel before blasting off then maybe they need to lose some skin. That's how we learn sometimes.

    Got my first bike with QRs when I was 15 (now 56). I am not a racer, yet I use and LOVE QR skewers. If my wife comes to pick me up at work with her car for whatever reason, she can stop in front of my job site for one minute double-parked. I roll the bike to the back of the car while she releases the trunk latch. I turn the bike sideways to the back bumper, flip both QRs, lift my bike by the frame and both wheels just drop right off. I load the frame into the car, then put the wheels on top, slam the deck, and jump into the passenger seat. All of that takes far less time than it took me to type the description. When we get home I pull everything out of the trunk and snap the wheels back on WITHOUT having to readjust the danged QRs. Yes, I make sure they are still tensioned properly - which takes no extra movements, just some thought as I am ramming home the levers.

    Do I want to go back to solid axles with nuts and washers? Hell no. Do I care that the dude down the street has no clue how QRs work? Not very much. And if my wheel pops off at 25mph because I forgot to latch my wheel on - I am not going to blame the company that made the latch. But that's a whole other discussion.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 06-03-14 at 09:27 AM.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    I am saying exactly what I said.
    What you said made no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    Neither are lawyer tabs (lips). I don't feel any obligation to adjust the entire world to suit the least common denominator among us. I think the USofA is the only country that even cares if someone can't operate a QR skewer (or keep their fingers away from moving lawnmower blades). Litigation is the ONLY reason anybody cares, other than the person losing their teeth when their wheel pops off.

    When we buy lawnmowers, nobody teaches us how to safely use them. Same with QR skewers. If a person is too stoopid to detect a loose wheel before blasting off then maybe they need to lose some skin. That's how we learn sometimes.

    Got my first bike with QRs when I was 15 (now 56). I am not a racer, yet I use and LOVE QR skewers. If my wife comes to pick me up at work with her car for whatever reason, she can stop in front of my job site for one minute double-parked. I roll the bike to the back of the car while she releases the trunk latch. I turn the bike sideways to the back bumper, flip both QRs, lift my bike by the frame and both wheels just drop right off. I load the frame into the car, then put the wheels on top, slam the deck, and jump into the passenger seat. All of that takes far less time than it took me to type the description. When we get home I pull everything out of the trunk and snap the wheels back on WITHOUT having to readjust the danged QRs. Yes, I make sure they are still tensioned properly - which takes no extra movements, just some thought as I am ramming home the levers.

    Do I want to go back to solid axles with nuts and washers? Hell no. Do I care that the dude down the street has no clue how QRs work? Not very much. And if my wheel pops off at 25mph because I forgot to latch my wheel on - I am not going to blame the company that made the latch. But that's a whole other discussion.
    No one is arguing to "adjust the entire world to suit the least common denominator" (that's another straw man like your "you can't save them all" argument).

    Anyway, since people can buy bikes with nuts instead of quick releases, "lawyer lips" aren't meant for everybody (the "least common denominator").

    I'm not sure if "lawyer lips" have actually saved anybody from injury. I agree that they are an irritation to use.

    The issue isn't that ""you can't save them all" (since that's a silly argument) but whether they save a "reasonable" number of people from injury for the "cost".




    Last edited by njkayaker; 06-03-14 at 11:17 AM.

  21. #96
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    So, you are saying there is no point in attempting to make things safer (unless the result is "perfect"). Or that any effort made to make things safer requires "pulling one's hair out". Is anybody "pulling their hair out" about "lawyer lips"?

    Is 50 people getting hurt the same as 100 people getting hurt?

    What indications exist to support your claim that "idiots are getting more clever at injuring themselves"?

    You are still arguing that things have to be perfect ("you can't save them all") to be considered even after you agreed that that wasn't the goal. You aren't making sense.
    They aren't getting more clever, au contraire, and some are a wee bit STIFLED!
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

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