Lawyer lips.
#51
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I am surprised that there seems to be only a few of us here that have seen others screw up the wheel replacement because of lawyer lips and thus make cycling less safe.
My coworker is one of those people I have seen, screw it up. How many here, really thinks that the big box stores teach buyers how to deal with wheel replacement?
My coworker is one of those people I have seen, screw it up. How many here, really thinks that the big box stores teach buyers how to deal with wheel replacement?
However, anyone who works in a bike shop that caters to non-serious riders can tell you that QR misuse is very common.
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#52
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Whenever I pass another cyclist, I look for the little clues they may do something stupid.
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#53
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particularly of value on the 80% of the bikes sold annually, thru wally world and other box stores ,
but those Corporate Business' have A Retained Legal staff ..
ready to crush a claim or just pay off a bit in a pre court settlement.
but those Corporate Business' have A Retained Legal staff ..
ready to crush a claim or just pay off a bit in a pre court settlement.
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Thanks, John.
Since I'm riding bikes built in the past 10 years, I'll rely on your last sentence with editing as follows: If the proper adjustment procedure is followed every time the wheel is replaced, then the mechanism should not come loose.
I've been riding for many years, but I've never come across the 'lawyer lips' issue. I am glad it came up here because I've reviewed the proper QR adjustment procedure and added a QR inspection to my pre-ride checklist.
Have a great holiday weekend. If you ride, be safe; there will be lots of nuts on the road.
Since I'm riding bikes built in the past 10 years, I'll rely on your last sentence with editing as follows: If the proper adjustment procedure is followed every time the wheel is replaced, then the mechanism should not come loose.
I've been riding for many years, but I've never come across the 'lawyer lips' issue. I am glad it came up here because I've reviewed the proper QR adjustment procedure and added a QR inspection to my pre-ride checklist.
Have a great holiday weekend. If you ride, be safe; there will be lots of nuts on the road.
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My point is that making the proper adjustment takes time and a bit of skill, but, without lawyer lips, once done it is done for always. Making the proper adjustment without taking the extra time and care to check it, particularly when under difficult circumstances (as in rain or darkness, or when racing) is more likely to be improperly done than properly done.
#56
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I still say you 're all missing the point.
There are people who are NOT ready for Quick Release wheels, i.e. Novices, and they should be provided with Solid Axles, which require a Wrench to remove or install a Wheel.
You need to back up about a mile to realize the Whole Picture...
There are people who are NOT ready for Quick Release wheels, i.e. Novices, and they should be provided with Solid Axles, which require a Wrench to remove or install a Wheel.
You need to back up about a mile to realize the Whole Picture...
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Another point being missed is that front wheel retention systems, such as lawyer lips, aren't QR-specific. Tons of solid axle front wheels with tabbed washers as backup.
There was one front wheel retention system that had me scratching my head for a good while. The inside faces of the dropouts had a hollow into which the locknuts settled (inverse lawyer lips?) so with the axle nuts off the wheel stayed in there. You REALLY had to spread the fork legs to get that wheel to drop out.
Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 05-25-14 at 11:55 AM.
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All of THIS^^ and...solid axles suck. Rear solid axles bend and break all the time on freewheel multi-geared bikes - especially for heavy riders.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-25-14 at 12:09 PM.
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Haven't ever had any problems with QRs, but didn't see any way to get rid of LL on carbon dropout. Now that I have had to live with them for 6 mos., I got in the habit of unscrewing 4 complete revolutions every time and it's now second nature. 4 revs and close the lever.
scott s.
.
scott s.
.
I file them off my bikes, but clearly see that many people misuse qr levers, so I would not modify anyone else's bike. And for "backwards" mounted disc brakes they are needed too.
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 05-25-14 at 12:15 PM.
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I get what you're saying now and agree with you.
In most situations I find maneuvering to be much safer, as I hate to stop unannounced.
I had a car back out across my lane yesterday, and went into the other lane instead of braking. I'm always concerned about being rear ended and getting killed. I'd much rather take my chances of always finding an alternate route.(I'm also one of those brakeless fixed gear idiots so that plays a role)
If you can safely brake and come to a stop without sliding or wrecking yourself, that's a fine option.
Everyone has their own opinions and it varies by situation.
In most situations I find maneuvering to be much safer, as I hate to stop unannounced.
I had a car back out across my lane yesterday, and went into the other lane instead of braking. I'm always concerned about being rear ended and getting killed. I'd much rather take my chances of always finding an alternate route.(I'm also one of those brakeless fixed gear idiots so that plays a role)
If you can safely brake and come to a stop without sliding or wrecking yourself, that's a fine option.
Everyone has their own opinions and it varies by situation.
dual disc setup has some braking power
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Far from foolproof. You have to know which side of the fork dropout to put the grooved friction washer, and the Lawyer Clips (which serves the same basic purpose as Lawyer Tabs - preventing loose nuts from dropping a wheel out of the dropouts) have to be installed on the correct side of the dropouts as well. Then the "mechanic" must know how to loosen and tighten the nuts in order to not inadvertently unscrew or over-tighten the hub adjusting nuts causing permanent damage to the hub. And the "mechanic" in question is going to use a vice-grip pliers, crescent wrench, pipe wrench, chopsticks, nutcracker, or virtually ANY tool at hand other than the proper one. So after a couple of wheel removals the nuts will all be rounded off virtually ASSURING they will never again be properly tightened causing, guess what?? Yep...the wheel will fall off (most likely on someone else's bike, like a child of the "mechanic").
All of THIS^^ and...solid axles suck. Rear solid axles bend and break all the time on freewheel multi-geared bikes - especially for heavy riders.
All of THIS^^ and...solid axles suck. Rear solid axles bend and break all the time on freewheel multi-geared bikes - especially for heavy riders.
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You are stretching trying very hard to justify the correctness of U.S. bicycle distributors equipping bikes intended for their typical customers (especially those that are not "knowledgeable enthusiasts") with QR; and really stretching to imply that it would be ethical or safe to sell them without additional safety devices to protect those riders from the known QR fussiness to be precisely installed and correctly maintained by typical users.
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Yes. We need big orange safety stickers on each fork leg.
I'm the OP haven't chimed in since. The reason I made the OP was not about the pros/cons of lawyer lips but rather that I found it amazing that this guy had served as a witness on 20+ such cases, with 3 fatalities. A plaintiff's witness, which likely means for the rider (or estate of the rider) and against the manufacturers, which likely means he argues the design, including lawyer lips, is defective.
I'm the OP haven't chimed in since. The reason I made the OP was not about the pros/cons of lawyer lips but rather that I found it amazing that this guy had served as a witness on 20+ such cases, with 3 fatalities. A plaintiff's witness, which likely means for the rider (or estate of the rider) and against the manufacturers, which likely means he argues the design, including lawyer lips, is defective.
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This discussion has caused me to think beyond my own bikes. I have an adult daughter and son, and five young granddaughters who probably haven't been schooled about the importance of proper QR tightening. I'll share some info with the 'kids' this week and follow up with personal tutoring whenever possible.
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Yes. We need big orange safety stickers on each fork leg.
I'm the OP haven't chimed in since. The reason I made the OP was not about the pros/cons of lawyer lips but rather that I found it amazing that this guy had served as a witness on 20+ such cases, with 3 fatalities. A plaintiff's witness, which likely means for the rider (or estate of the rider) and against the manufacturers, which likely means he argues the design, including lawyer lips, is defective.
I'm the OP haven't chimed in since. The reason I made the OP was not about the pros/cons of lawyer lips but rather that I found it amazing that this guy had served as a witness on 20+ such cases, with 3 fatalities. A plaintiff's witness, which likely means for the rider (or estate of the rider) and against the manufacturers, which likely means he argues the design, including lawyer lips, is defective.
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Yes. We need big orange safety stickers on each fork leg.
I'm the OP haven't chimed in since. The reason I made the OP was not about the pros/cons of lawyer lips but rather that I found it amazing that this guy had served as a witness on 20+ such cases, with 3 fatalities. A plaintiff's witness, which likely means for the rider (or estate of the rider) and against the manufacturers, which likely means he argues the design, including lawyer lips, is defective.
I'm the OP haven't chimed in since. The reason I made the OP was not about the pros/cons of lawyer lips but rather that I found it amazing that this guy had served as a witness on 20+ such cases, with 3 fatalities. A plaintiff's witness, which likely means for the rider (or estate of the rider) and against the manufacturers, which likely means he argues the design, including lawyer lips, is defective.
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If that's the case, I don't see anything wrong with it.
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Based on previous articles and comments from well respected members of the cycling community over the years, it appears he testifies that QR is a faulty design by itself, and they can fail at any time even if installed correctly.
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 05-26-14 at 02:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01
That's John Howard. He's transformed from an awesome bike racer, into a sleazy ambulance chasing "expert witness" to extract money from bike companies.
Based on previous articles and comments from well respected members of the cycling community over the years, it appears he testifies that QR is a faulty design by itself, and they can fail at any time even if installed correctly.
An expert witness, such as John Howard operates as, does not testify to such matters without giving an opinion. He is hired by an attorney precisely to give an opinion on whatever subject the attorney is interested in, and in which the expert can be qualified as an expert. I have operated as an expert witness in cycling matters for about forty years; see my website johnforester.com. I have observed John Howard's professional performance in several cases, and I am not inclined to consider him as a well-qualified engineer.
That's John Howard. He's transformed from an awesome bike racer, into a sleazy ambulance chasing "expert witness" to extract money from bike companies.
Based on previous articles and comments from well respected members of the cycling community over the years, it appears he testifies that QR is a faulty design by itself, and they can fail at any time even if installed correctly.
We don't know the nature and specifics of his testimony. For all we know, he's simply describing the existence of CPSC standards relating to secondary retention, and not offering n opinion either way. This would put professionals who remove lips in a position similar to that of an employer who removes or defeats safeguards on machinery.
If that's the case, I don't see anything wrong with it.
If that's the case, I don't see anything wrong with it.
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I'm ambivalent about Lawyer Lips, which I consider a poorly conceived solution. I don't and won't have them on my own bikes, but they do serve a purpose.
Today I was riding on the BRP, and passed a family of properly helmeted riders, and for whatever reason, my eye was drawn to the little girl's front QR whose lever was hanging down and flopping it the breeze. I waved them over and made them all stop, and showed mom the problem. To demonstrate I lifted the bike and the wheel stayed on hanging from the lips, but it was obvious that it was loose. I showed them how to adjust the QR and set it up correctly, and they took off.
It's hard to say that I made a difference since the wheel was staying on thanks to the lips, but it might have gotten loose later on. OTOH, absent the lips, it's just as likely that the front wheel would have fallen off when the bike was on a car rack, or picked up as it was taken from the house.
Today I was riding on the BRP, and passed a family of properly helmeted riders, and for whatever reason, my eye was drawn to the little girl's front QR whose lever was hanging down and flopping it the breeze. I waved them over and made them all stop, and showed mom the problem. To demonstrate I lifted the bike and the wheel stayed on hanging from the lips, but it was obvious that it was loose. I showed them how to adjust the QR and set it up correctly, and they took off.
It's hard to say that I made a difference since the wheel was staying on thanks to the lips, but it might have gotten loose later on. OTOH, absent the lips, it's just as likely that the front wheel would have fallen off when the bike was on a car rack, or picked up as it was taken from the house.
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It amazes me how many people can argue against something so simple, and that offers a small added measure of safety.
#72
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The lips do solve one problem, but they create another. The debate is whether -- on balance -- they are an improvement, or create a worse problem than they solve.
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I'm ambivalent about Lawyer Lips, which I consider a poorly conceived solution. I don't and won't have them on my own bikes, but they do serve a purpose.
Today I was riding on the BRP, and passed a family of properly helmeted riders, and for whatever reason, my eye was drawn to the little girl's front QR whose lever was hanging down and flopping it the breeze. I waved them over and made them all stop, and showed mom the problem. To demonstrate I lifted the bike and the wheel stayed on hanging from the lips, but it was obvious that it was loose. I showed them how to adjust the QR and set it up correctly, and they took off.
It's hard to say that I made a difference since the wheel was staying on thanks to the lips, but it might have gotten loose later on. OTOH, absent the lips, it's just as likely that the front wheel would have fallen off when the bike was on a car rack, or picked up as it was taken from the house.
Today I was riding on the BRP, and passed a family of properly helmeted riders, and for whatever reason, my eye was drawn to the little girl's front QR whose lever was hanging down and flopping it the breeze. I waved them over and made them all stop, and showed mom the problem. To demonstrate I lifted the bike and the wheel stayed on hanging from the lips, but it was obvious that it was loose. I showed them how to adjust the QR and set it up correctly, and they took off.
It's hard to say that I made a difference since the wheel was staying on thanks to the lips, but it might have gotten loose later on. OTOH, absent the lips, it's just as likely that the front wheel would have fallen off when the bike was on a car rack, or picked up as it was taken from the house.
Or perhaps they simply used the QR as a wingnut and failed to use the lever action. In this case the lawyer lips saved the cyclist, but primarily because they didn't know how to use the QR properly.
Maybe a better solution, instead of lawyer lips is just marking on the QR lever to indicate "open" or "closed."
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https://www.jimlangley.net/wrench/qrexplained1.jpg
https://lacbc.files.wordpress.com/201...ickrelease.jpg
I prefer imagery myself:
= Safe to ride.
= Unsafe to ride.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 06-02-14 at 10:41 AM.
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As for the second. Marking OPEN and CLOSED has been required since the original CPSC standards. These apply to OEM equipment only, so aftermarket QRs aren't covered. But IMO, makers of aftermarket QRs may be taking legal risks by marketing skewers that don't meet the standard.
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