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-   -   Lawyer lips. (http://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/949085-lawyer-lips.html)

Looigi 05-20-14 06:36 AM

Lawyer lips.
 
PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling : Toolbox: Love Your Skin and Keep It

"""I have personally been involved as a plaintiff’s witness in more than 20 phantom front wheel release cases, 3 of which ended in death, and 7 more in life-compromising spinal and brain injuries. In the rest of the cases the cyclists merely lost pieces of their body, like teeth and skin, and or broke bones but eventually recovered. Why did these accidents happen? They happened because somebody did file em off, got lazy or foolish, and didn’t do what it takes to keep the wheel on. """

rydabent 05-20-14 07:10 AM

IMO there is nothing wrong with lawyer lips at all. No moving parts, and all you have to do is unscrew your quick release skewer a few more turns. If they save some skin and teeth they are a good deal.

squirtdad 05-20-14 09:43 AM

Read the article it is not really about lawyer lips or lack of. it is more about general safety and is more musing than anything IMO

italktocats 05-20-14 09:57 AM

he also writes about braking is giving up any control over your bike how can i take that seriously?

bikemig 05-20-14 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rydabent (Post 16774593)
IMO there is nothing wrong with lawyer lips at all. No moving parts, and all you have to do is unscrew your quick release skewer a few more turns. If they save some skin and teeth they are a good deal.

I filed them off on a bike once many moons ago (back when I was too cool to use them) but I haven't done it on my more recent bikes. Agree that the safety rationale makes them worthwhile.

genec 05-20-14 10:05 AM

Of the 4 bikes I own, only one is new enough for lawyer lips, and the other three have not conspired to kill me....

achoo 05-20-14 10:07 AM

And if you ever put your bike on a fork-mount roof rack, you'll probably want those lips. Else you're trusting nothing but friction to hold your bike onto the roof of the car at highway speeds and over bumps.

rydabent 05-20-14 10:56 AM

achoo

Excellent point!!!!!!

FBinNY 05-20-14 11:01 AM

Properly designed QRs, used properly have proven themselves more than adequate over decades. But note there are two conditions. The lawyers lips are a belt and suspenders remedy to reduce the chances of negative outcomes if those conditions aren't met.

However, I've never been happy with this solution because it creates new problems, namely the need to readjust the QR with every wheel removal. Practice before the lips came into vogue, was to use QR nuts that were tight on the skewer and didn't change position. That meant that the user only had to throw the lever.

I wonder about the thinking process involved. We have a problem in that users can't figure out how to throw a lever back and forth. So we impose a solution which requires still more knowledge. It never made sense to me, and still doesn't.

BTW- going back to the dark ages when Americans were first introduced to QR, one solution employed by many mechanics was to lock the correct adjustment of the skewer nut by a variety of means. This concept was proposed to the CPSC at the time, but they opted for "secondary retention" a a better solution.

yote223 05-20-14 11:22 AM

I remove the QR's from everything I own. IMO, they are unreliable junk that invites theft. Anyone want to buy some? mostly Shimano with little or no use.

unterhausen 05-20-14 11:23 AM

I think the advent of through axle on even cheaper bikes shows that lawyer lips were a failure. I know that they make me less safe, because I have to readjust my skewers every time I take a wheel off. And there is always the possibility that I fail to do it right.

FBinNY 05-20-14 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by italktocats (Post 16775098)
he also writes about braking is giving up any control over your bike how can i take that seriously?

He's talking about emergency hard baking and he's right on that point.

Hard braking will limit and possibly eliminate steering control. This limits the response to the bicycle's stopping distance which may be longer than the room available. Hard braking can also result in going down (hopefully as a laydown due to rear wheel slide, rather than an endo due to front wheel lock).

By contrast, steering around hazards maintains control and keeps options open. Motorcycle riders taking safety courses are taught the value and methodology of emergency steering, and are drilled to look for a steering out before resorting to emergency braking.

Cyclists who condition themselves to maintain situational awareness and keep steering options high in their emergency response sequence tend to do better in emergencies than those with no conditioned response sequence.

ItsJustMe 05-20-14 01:47 PM

QRs are unreliable? I've never had a problem with one. I don't have a TON of experience, but I've had bikes with QR skewers for about 30 years now, about 5 bikes and 32,000 miles, and probably 150 or so tire removals.

italktocats 05-20-14 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16775589)
He's talking about emergency hard baking and he's right on that point.

Hard braking will limit and possibly eliminate steering control. This limits the response to the bicycle's stopping distance which may be longer than the room available. Hard braking can also result in going down (hopefully as a laydown due to rear wheel slide, rather than an endo due to front wheel lock).

By contrast, steering around hazards maintains control and keeps options open. Motorcycle riders taking safety courses are taught the value and methodology of emergency steering, and are drilled to look for a steering out before resorting to emergency braking.

Cyclists who condition themselves to maintain situational awareness and keep steering options high in their emergency response sequence tend to do better in emergencies than those with no conditioned response sequence.

Yes hard braking will limit your option in steering, but even while braking you can steer and no matter what; you should not lose control
if you DO you lose control on emergencystops you need to up your riding skill (or brakes/tires)

the reason this is part of motorcycles training, is because of the 'cagers' behind them; 1) motorcycles brake a lot harder 2) they brake quicker (due to paying more attention) therefore stopping without having time to check the mirrors, can lead to being rear-ended

even on the pedalbike i rather not stop, obviously, but if i need to do so, i will be in full control, if i wouldnt be i would consider it MY fault because i have the abilty and skill to make up other peoples mistakes, it would be suicidal not to do so

ive read the 'front brakes are dangerous' many times in the internet and it get me worried, because it would mean the only way they stop... is a panic stop


either way, backto the QR; if you use them, they dont fail. just like any other part of your bike

FBinNY 05-20-14 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsJustMe (Post 16775935)
QRs are unreliable? I've never had a problem with one. I don't have a TON of experience, but I've had bikes with QR skewers for about 30 years now, about 5 bikes and 32,000 miles, and probably 150 or so tire removals.

Good QRs used properly are about as close to bullet proof as it's possible to be.

OTOH, poor QRs used right, and/or good QRs used wrong aren't.

Add to the mix, Disc brake systems that create a downward thrust to the axle, and things get dicier.

Like anything mechanical, redundancy, and/or failsafe (fail in a safe way) designs are always desirable, but not always possible. The lips add a bit of redundancy to the system and so make sense for general public use. Unfortunately they've become an excuse for sloppier design and execution, (why worry, we have a backup in place).

As any experienced engineer or technician will remind you' --

Nothing is foolproof because fools are too ingenious.

BTW- none of my bikes have lips, but I never remove them from others' bikes, even when asked.

Worknomore 05-20-14 03:13 PM

How flippin hard is it to properly use a quick release? If you can't handle it you should stay away from anything with moving parts.

OldTryGuy 05-20-14 04:50 PM

RWS DT Swiss easiest QR skewer around, IMO.

DT Swiss - Components

FBinNY 05-20-14 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worknomore (Post 16776251)
How flippin hard is it to properly use a quick release? If you can't handle it you should stay away from anything with moving parts.

Like just about everything, it's easy IF you know how.

When I was in retail during the dark ages, QR was now to most Americans, as were derailleurs. Every sale was followed up with a demonstration of how to remove and replace a wheel, with emphasis on the QR, how to use derailleur gearing, and how to release and reset brakes.

Assuming people listened, that took care of our customers, but fully half the QR bikes that came in for repairs had the QR wound up like a wing nut. It was numbers like that that caused the CPSC to mandate the "OPEN/CLOSED" marking on the lever, and a warning/instrucion label to be affixed to the lever when the bike was sold new. But even with that they reasoned that a decent number of people would mess it up, and added the secondary retention mandate that eventually became the so-called lawyers' lips.

Those here who work in bike shops can confirm that after 50 years of QRs being common, a fair percentage of the repair bikes they see have the QR used wrong.

JoeyBike 05-20-14 05:25 PM

I use Pinhead locking skewers on most of my bikes. The Lawyer Tabs add another layer of protection from vice-grips on them.

I have worked in the bicycle industry on and off for 25 years. Many, many people misuse QR skewers and a large percentage of that set cannot be taught the proper use of them. Lots of people can't work with their hands, not even a screwdriver. This is fact.

genec 05-20-14 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 16776710)
I use Pinhead locking skewers on most of my bikes. The Lawyer Tabs add another layer of protection from vice-grips on them.

I have worked in the bicycle industry on and off for 25 years. Many, many people misuse QR skewers and a large percentage of that set cannot be taught the proper use of them. Lots of people can't work with their hands, not even a screwdriver. This is fact.

So making people "fiddle even more" (read: "misuse") with their QR makes things better?

With a proper QR set, you just open or close the lever... with LL, you have to fiddle with the screw arrangement and change the tension every time you remove a wheel, thus requiring more potential "misuse" of the QR and a greater chance for failure.

FBinNY 05-20-14 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 16776863)
So making people "fiddle even more" (read: "misuse") with their QR makes things better?

With a proper QR set, you just open or close the lever... with LL, you have to fiddle with the screw arrangement and change the tension every time you remove a wheel, thus requiring more potential "misuse" of the QR and a greater chance for failure.

back at the time there was an alternate idea to secondary retension. It was set and forget skewers. The idea is the at mechanics would adjust and lock the nut in place, by any of a number of needs. The lock system would be secure, so the ONLY option was to use the QR lever as intended. I still use a variation on this (nuts can be moved, but take some force) and think it's a smarter approach. But it has a serious drawback, in that fork tips vary in thickness so there's the risk of failure if a wheel is moved bike to bike.

There have been many ideas over the years, but none are perfect. QRs are another example where the knowledgeable are inconvenienced (at best) in order to protect the incompetent. Welcome to the 21st century.



The QR question i

spare_wheel 05-20-14 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16775968)
Add to the mix, Disc brake systems that create a downward thrust to the axle, and things get dicier.

the use of disc brakes on road bikes is going to extract some flesh and blood from tab filers.

JoeyBike 05-20-14 07:45 PM

Most misuse of QRs come in the form of using the lever like a large wing nut. The lawyer tabs do a good job of keeping the wheel on the fork in this case.

John Forester 05-20-14 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyBike (Post 16777139)
Most misuse of QRs come in the form of using the lever like a large wing nut. The lawyer tabs do a good job of keeping the wheel on the fork in this case.

In this case, the old-fashioned wing nuts were just as effective and much simpler and cheaper. I used these for years, in the long ago. There's no point in having a quick release that has to be used in a slow release manner.

yugyug 05-20-14 10:29 PM

Seems to me that his comment from the article:

"the sleeping giant proportion of aging carbon components not designed for lifetime use."

is worth more discussion than lawyer lips.


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