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  1. #26
    Senior Member italktocats's Avatar
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    i dont think everyone gets that you have a bike with you, also a form of protection, used it a few times vs angry dogs

  2. #27
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by italktocats View Post
    i dont think everyone gets that you have a bike with you, also a form of protection, used it a few times vs angry dogs
    When deciding what form of personal protection I would carry with me when cycling I just assume that I am going to get knocked away from my bike by an assailant. So whatever appliance I choose must be comfortable for me to carry on my person and also be second nature to get in into my hand instantly. If you can't get your hand on the thing when needed it is worthless. That's RULE #1

    Rule #2 : How strong, talented, and athletic am I gets us through Rule #2 . For me, carrying a collapsible baton is effective. For my wife, nothing short of a firearm would be worth her while. She is tiny and has no strength or weight. She needs a firearm as an equalizer. Batons and firearms both require some training and practice to be effective tools for self defense.

    Rule #3 : How judicious do I have to be with my weapon of choice. Well, this is a little more complicated. If my wife went to trial for shooting a 200lb male who was trying to assault her, no jury on Earth is going to convict her of anything. If I were to shoot the exact same guy under the same circumstances then all sorts of questions are going to arise regarding use of deadly force: Could I have run away, could I have fired a warning shot, did I verbally warn him enough times, blah, blah, blah. So if I shoot someone it had better be crystal clear to 13 strangers that I had good motive for doing so. Also, you can't just pull out a firearm and proceed to riddle a pursuing dog with bullets.

    So to satisfy Rule #3 , pepper spray sounds like a great choice - it's easy to carry, probably won't get life in prison for spraying someone, relatively inexpensive, may be used on stray animals in a pinch, and you could go ahead and spray someone if they were just "bothering" you. You don't have to wait for the actual assault to occur. Yes, you might get into a little trouble but nothing compared to shooting someone who you just suspected was going to assault you. The downside as we learned above is that pepper spray may not work on the crazed, high, angry assailant due to malfunction of the spray mechanism or seeming immunity by the assailant. Add to that pepper spray may be accidentally deployed somewhere like your house, car, or public place causing mobilization of Homeland Security looking for YOU.

    For me, the alloy ASP Airweight 21" Baton made the most sense. It was recommended by my bud who had experience with guns, spray, Tazers, and batons as an Army MP. The baton is a bit pricey but will last a lifetime, never needs winding, batteries, or to hold pressure, and is guaranteed to deploy. It is easy to carry in my pocket or door pocket of my wife's car. If I happen to kill someone with the thing, the questions will be more like "why didn't the assailant just run away when he saw the baton?" Well, because he was dead set on attacking me so....I am NOT GUILTY of murder. The ASP is considered a weapon that must not be concealed in New Orleans so I bought the lanyard attachment and let the lanyard hang exposed from my shorts/pants pocket. This satisfies the law. I have carried the ASP for nearly five years. It just disappears in my pocket but is easy to get my hands on the exposed lanyard. If I am knocked away from my bicycle the ASP is still with me. I do get a little ongoing training tuneups from my friend now and again.

    Remember, what is right for me is not right for everyone. There are a lot of factors to address.
    Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-27-14 at 09:53 AM.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  3. #28
    Senior Member italktocats's Avatar
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    so what war did you plan on joining? i dont get it, i guess so you exprect to get mugged every time you take your bike out? **** people in cars say, is just talking ****, theres no way theyre getting out of the car if you wann mug someone, going after cyclist doesnt seem the easiest target to me its different for women ofcourse, you cant expect them to knock a guy with a knife out (and im still not carrying weapons, even if 'they' do, i rather give them the idea im an easy target and not let them do stupid ****) besides that, if someone is (if) set out to kill you, pretty much nothing will stop them anyway

  4. #29
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by italktocats View Post
    ... so i guess you expect to get mugged every time you take your bike out?
    Yes.

    During the past 20 years there have been at least half a dozen REAL attempts on me alone. Add my two "real" bike commuting friends and we easily double that number between the three of us. I am not even counting the suspicious actions of people who I assumed were trying to set me up but failed because I ride fast, away from the edges where people hide, and keep a sharp eye peeled for knuckleheads loitering in areas that suggest an ambush. I also ride with a 500+ lumen front light that I can set to strobe as a weapon. It's hard to hit someone when you are blinded by flashing light after dark.

    By "real" bike commuters I mean (in this case) my friends use their bikes exclusively for getting to work, the grocery, hauling kids in trailers and child seats, etc. What I am trying to get across is that between the three of us we log some incredible time on bicycles in the "real" world, rain or shine, good neighborhoods and not-so-good ones by day and night, using city streets for the most part just like if we rode motorcycles. We are exposed to trouble much more than say grandma on the fitness loop in the park or weekend warriors riding a giro.

    So, YES...every freaking day I EXPECT someone to try. If I don't expect it, then I am leaving myself vulnerable and would likely already be dead or at least beaten up.

    Just do a Google search for "violence against cyclists New Orleans" if you want evidence other than my word for it.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  5. #30
    Senior Member italktocats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    Yes.

    During the past 20 years there have been at least half a dozen REAL attempts on me alone
    mmmh how nice of people...

    im happy my mom could safely drive her bike in the park at night over here, not that she would dare, at least not untill theyll instal led lights on the smaller paths too, but maybe then she still wont, but i dont have to worry about her safelty

  6. #31
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    Joey, I submit that moving might be in your best interest.

  7. #32
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    Speaking of weaponized condiments



    My wife, who is from Sri Lanka and used to eating fire, skipped purgatory and went straight to hell after sampling (undiluted - big mistake) something called "10 minute burn" at a chilli festival.

    Just something to consider if the shop is out of pepper spray and you wish to pack heat to repel a bland if menacing adversary. You'll have to catch him with his mouth open though.
    Last edited by 905; 06-09-14 at 07:42 AM. Reason: haven't edited, but I note that purgatory isn't actually on the way to hell
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  8. #33
    Senior Member shipwreck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullalto View Post
    Joey, I submit that moving might be in your best interest.
    Man, I know several people from NO who love to tell you how dangerous it is there. I agree, I've hung out there and think its a pit. But when you suggest relocating, the list of all the things that make the big easy great comes out. Maybe they are right, I mean, I effing hate that town, but will visit my friends there again, because even though its filthy, the cops are corrupt, and Dixie land jazz makes my ears bleed, the food is really great.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    I am thinking.... no weapon is a good replacement for proper defensive training. I've seen videos of self-defenses techniques using a common cane.



    I've read of how to use my bicycle to block myself from an aggressive dog. I wonder.... if there isn't some bicycle frame pump training that could be helpful for a cyclist.

  10. #35
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 905 View Post
    Speaking of weaponized condiments



    My wife, who is from Sri Lanka and used to eating fire, skipped purgatory and went straight to hell after sampling (undiluted - big mistake) something called "10 minute burn" at a chilli festival.

    Just something to consider if the shop is out of pepper spray and you wish to pack heat to repel a bland if menacing adversary. You'll have to catch him with his mouth open though.
    or fill a water bottle with the stuff. I'd bet a facefull of that stuff would work on man or beast
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  11. #36
    The Fat Guy In The Back Tundra_Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    ... Then there was the time I crashed with the spray in my pants pocket and the entire contents deployed into my front pocket. That was an unpleasant afternoon. ...
    I am sorry this happened to you, but I must admit the way you stated this made me laugh.
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  12. #37
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    Pepper spray-
    if a dog or human gets hit in the eyes-his eyes will squeeze shut-and dramatically tear.
    Now good pepper spray-hit in the eyes-will discourage 99.99% of dogs-
    It will work-eyes tearing squeezed shut-on a doped up human-but sure they can still punch and pull a trigger.
    The soldier-he was ready for it-psyched himself up etc-trained to continue-nothing like a real life mugger who will never have been hit by it before.
    Of course he can still pull a trigger-but you are supposed to be running riding away-twice as far away probably 1/4 as likely to be hit by a barely aimed shot

    Bobby G- hope you little dog did OK- did you get those Rotts right in the eyes?? Good spray??
    I have dogs cats-love both-but I have grave reservations about Pitt bulls Rotts and the POS(usually) folks who own them.
    We bring Arty-3 recycled greyhound- to a fenced local dog park- there are always BIG HEADED pitt bulls-occasionally un-neutered males(violation of rules) usually they are well behaved-but 70 lb Arty-would have zero chance against a modest 50 lbs-Pitt-she could be mortally injured in just seconds.

    Yeah I need some good spray- I have firearms-but wouldn't bring one to a dog park-and just too dangerous to use-probably safer to use a sturdy knife .Pretty sure those fighting dogs are resistant to clubbing etc-so sturdy cane or club would be useless.

    Oh well-love dogs-but some breeds are too dangerous-and the usual owners of those breeds-low lives(yeah some pitt bulls really sweet-but they could kill a fit adult male-Arty(70 lbs) biggish athletic dog-but not much of a threat to adult humans)

    Mass-restricted pepper spray?? In the 1950's I would visit my cousins in Fall River(beat up fading textile mill town back then)-we would go to some beach (Horse Shoe Horse Neck Horse Tail-BAD UNDERTOW)- Mass never struck me as particularly dangerous-but I was 6 yo?
    Why so restrictive weapon wise-?? Yankees trying to keep the drunken Micks in line??

  13. #38
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipwreck View Post
    Man, I know several people from NO who love to tell you how dangerous it is there. I agree, I've hung out there and think its a pit. But when you suggest relocating, the list of all the things that make the big easy great comes out....the food is really great.
    No ice or snow. Maybe flurries once every five years. Temps all Winter in the 60s and 70s. Flat. And except for the criminal element it is an easy city to live car-free. I have shopped around the entire USA except the upper Mississippi River Valley. Except for a few places I can't afford, nothing out there has more to offer for me than NOLA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tundra_Man View Post
    I am sorry this happened to you, but I must admit the way you stated this made me laugh.
    It could have been a lot worse. I was wearing a new pair of BDU cargo shorts with so much starch that the pocket lining was almost waterproof. The pepper spray hit my upper thigh pretty good, and some got on my thumb (fingerless gloves) when I removed the dead canister from my pocket. My most sensitive areas were spared from contact. Still, it was like having a really bad sunburn for about five hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Pepper spray - if a dog or human gets hit in the eyes-his eyes will squeeze shut-and dramatically tear.
    The problem for me was actually 1. Getting my hand on the spray in time, 2. Hitting the dog without slowing down - the spray just trails behind me like a sky-writer. and 3. Handling the canister with drops of spray on the outside after deployment. All of this while riding drastically increases the chances of crashing for me.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  14. #39
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    I don't recommend pepper spray. The spray going back into your eyes is a real threat. There are many better alternatives than spray..

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
    No ice or snow. Maybe flurries once every five years. Temps all Winter in the 60s and 70s. Flat. And except for the criminal element it is an easy city to live car-free. I have shopped around the entire USA except the upper Mississippi River Valley. Except for a few places I can't afford, nothing out there has more to offer for me than NOLA.


    It could have been a lot worse. I was wearing a new pair of BDU cargo shorts with so much starch that the pocket lining was almost waterproof. The pepper spray hit my upper thigh pretty good, and some got on my thumb (fingerless gloves) when I removed the dead canister from my pocket. My most sensitive areas were spared from contact. Still, it was like having a really bad sunburn for about five hours.



    The problem for me was actually 1. Getting my hand on the spray in time, 2. Hitting the dog without slowing down - the spray just trails behind me like a sky-writer. and 3. Handling the canister with drops of spray on the outside after deployment. All of this while riding drastically increases the chances of crashing for me.
    Yes-No question-you have to dismount to "shoot"
    Kinda' reminds me of those cowboys and indians movies and TV shows.
    Very close to ZERO chance of actually hitting a moving human from a moving horse or stagecoach-guessing they aimed at the horses-but still missed

    You sure could lose control-hit one of our potholes-street debris-car-or if the dog approached from the front-you would ride right into your spray plume.

    PLUS I have seen your videos-you usually are going pretty fast-guessing the dogs usually give up pretty quickly.
    Now the recent ambushes beatings(1(skull fracture 2)jaw fracture and one much lesser episode)-on Esplanade-perps still haven't been caught.Pepper spray would be better than nothing-but same problems as the dogs-hard to bring into action!
    Those low lives-targeted bike riders for "fun" not robbery-will strike again.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipwreck View Post
    Man, I know several people from NO who love to tell you how dangerous it is there. I agree, I've hung out there and think its a pit. But when you suggest relocating, the list of all the things that make the big easy great comes out. Maybe they are right, I mean, I effing hate that town, but will visit my friends there again, because even though its filthy, the cops are corrupt, and Dixie land jazz makes my ears bleed, the food is really great.
    Lots of good food there, gotta agree. Tons of music history from La too(Dixieland Jazz isn't my thing, but I don't mind it in moderation. Sure as hell prefer it to freeform, at least.), which makes the 'I want to do graduate work music history/musicology' geek in me come out.

    But being in that many dangerous situations so consistently would have me getting a CCW or moving, gotta say.

    Easier said than done though. Family ties, career, that indefinable comfort of 'home', etc.

  17. #42
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullalto View Post
    Lots of good food there, gotta agree. Tons of music history from La too(Dixieland Jazz isn't my thing, but I don't mind it in moderation. Sure as hell prefer it to freeform, at least.), which makes the 'I want to do graduate work music history/musicology' geek in me come out.

    But being in that many dangerous situations so consistently would have me getting a CCW or moving, gotta say.

    Easier said than done though. Family ties, career, that indefinable comfort of 'home', etc.
    Like I said earlier. There are other places where I could be happy if I could afford to live there. NOLA is starting to catch up with cost of living to some of those. The cottage my wife and I bought in 1998 for 100K (needed modernizing for sure but sound construction from the 1940s) is now worth 300+K based on other similar models selling around us. Ridiculous.

    Property tax is still dirt cheap by comparison. Car insurance is the most expensive in the USofA (glad I don't own one) and has always been so. Public schools suck (I have no kids) and this fact keeps the city from filling up with young professionals and their families. If you ever saw the old movie "Paint Your Wagon" with Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin you will get a feel for how NOLA's native sinners view the more puritanical outsiders moving in and trying to civilize the place to make it better for raising kids.

    Anyway, it's a quirky, dirty, sometimes dangerous, $h!7-hole river town surrounded by mostly the friendliest, nicest people you will ever meet. Only my travels through rural Kansas have I found sweeter people as a rule. Ironic as Kansas is probably the flip-side of NOLA. And NOLA is really nothing like the rest of the South (and the rest of the South is pretty happy about that). I do like the fact that the laws are at least set up in favor of defending ourselves against violent crime.
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  18. #43
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    I dread moving from San Antonio to Austin because of the cost of living, and Austin is still cheap compared to most places. I can commiserate on that.

  19. #44
    24-Speed Machine Chris516's Avatar
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    I saw a program yesterday on the Smithsonian cable channel about peppers. Part of the program mentioned how pepper spray is made with the hottest peppers on the planet. While interesting, I personally wouldn't use pepper spray. Because, If there is a sudden gust of wind, it would blow back in the face of the person using the pepper spray.
    Last edited by Chris516; 06-09-14 at 07:06 PM.

  20. #45
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    when i was a runner i carried halt dog repellant. over 20 someodd years i used it 5-6 times. always worked.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    There is certainly the possibility of the user getting affected, but this depends on the characteristics of the product, the conditions, and how it is used. Even so, this may be preferable to the alternative in some confrontations.
    Ride more. Fret less.

  22. #47
    20+mph Commuter JoeyBike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    There is certainly the possibility of the user getting affected, but this depends on the characteristics of the product, the conditions, and how it is used. Even so, this may be preferable to the alternative in some confrontations.
    1. Spray might not reach assailant.

    2. Spray might get on me.

    3. Spray might get on innocent bystanders.

    4. Spray may not be effective (due to age of spray, condition of assailant, etc.)

    5. Spray might not be in my hand when attacked.

    6. Spray is very difficult to use (get in hand, aim, squeeze while holding aim, get over-spray off of my hand) from a moving bike forcing me to become infantry instead of cavalry to even have a chance at 1-5.

    Maybe spray is better than nothing...just barely. I think the best actual use of a can of spray is to NOT use it. Just SHOW IT to the assailant. Hope he has been sprayed before. Then he will know that even though it may not disable him, it will make for several unpleasant hours standing under a cold shower.

    As for dogs - spray water from drinking bottle is effective with no collateral damage (unless you crash due lack of attention to riding the bike while deploying the water).
    "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one." - FBinNY

  23. #48
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    we all make our choice and have to live with them, I ALWAYS carry a knife with me ( I had extensive training using a knife, and stay trained)I'm comfortable with a knife, I would NEVER relay on a spray to protect me from man or beast, the baton would work BUT you need to be trained on how to use it
    many years age as an LEO I used a flashlight on someone and it got ugly in court because I wasn't trained to use a flashlight as a weapon, at night or trail riding I carry a Colt but that's me, like I said we make our choices and have to live with them.
    Last edited by 257 roberts; 06-12-14 at 09:33 AM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
    Massachusetts will be changing their laws regarding the purchase of pepper spray for personal defense, so that an FID license/card will no longer be required.
    I think pepper spray is a good every day carry item (I like the ASP defender series myself). On a moving bike, I would not rely on it as the first thing to reach for due to possible splashback, aiming issues, etc.

    Against a dog, I might try using an airhorn first--some of those are quite compact and can put out >110db. You can also use it to honk at cars Another thing I might try before pepper spray is a super bright LED flashlight, especially at night. Some of them are as bright as car headlamps now and have strobe options. This can serve as your bike light as well.

    There was a very good suggestion in this thread to place your bike between yourself and dog. Another good thought was to stop and get off your bike immediately if you don't think you can outrun the dog. This way you are in a better position to defend yourself with the spray (versus being tackled off the bike in motion), and it may even dissuade the dog's natural instinct to chase moving objects.

  25. #50
    Senior Member trailangel's Avatar
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    I'm going with JoeyBike and ride with 520 lumen flashlight. I have considered pepper spray.
    I going with the light because it's not a weapon, but with a lanyard on it, could be used like blackjack. Strobe setting works well and can disorientate somebody.
    I will use it for daytime headlamp as well.
    Can be removed quickly from handlebars with this mount:
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