Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-23-14, 09:54 AM   #1
Fernk
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Man arrested afterposting anti-cycling videos

'Run 'em in a ditch': Piedmont man arrested for reckless endangerment following anti-cycling videos | AL.com
Fernk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:00 AM   #2
Ex Pres
#39
 
Ex Pres's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the 35223 (AL)
Bikes:
Posts: 6,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
this has been all over local FB postings the last couple of days. Nice to have local law enforcement seemingly on our side for once.
Ex Pres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:13 AM   #3
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
I hate to say this. The man is definitely an idiot (being polite) but our free speech protections extend to idiots too.

IMO the police acted wrongfully, and should have referred to the DA to see if there was anything prosecutable, but not arrested on a bogus charge.

I don't see evidence of "reckless endangerment" and expect the charges to be dismissed.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:21 AM   #4
MMACH 5
Cycle Dallas
 
MMACH 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Bikes: Lucinda--2010 Jamis Aurora Elite & a few others
Posts: 3,610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I hate to say this. The man is definitely an idiot (being polite) but our free speech protections extend to idiots too.

IMO the police acted wrongfully, and should have referred to the DA to see if there was anything prosecutable, but not arrested on a bogus charge.

I don't see evidence of "reckless endangerment" and expect the charges to be dismissed.
This.

I kept waiting to see the reckless endangerment.
Charges should be dropped, unless there are more incriminating videos that were not shared with the public.
MMACH 5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:25 AM   #5
350htrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada, PG BC
Bikes: 27 speed oryx with over 37,000Km on it, 9,000Km with a BionX assist on it
Posts: 2,182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I hate to say this. The man is definitely an idiot (being polite) but our free speech protections extend to idiots too.

IMO the police acted wrongfully, and should have referred to the DA to see if there was anything prosecutable, but not arrested on a bogus charge.

I don't see evidence of "reckless endangerment" and expect the charges to be dismissed.
Really? Well I'm not an expert on the law, but I don't think "freedom of speech" includes inciting people to commit crimes... But maybe that's just me...
350htrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:34 AM   #6
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Bikes:
Posts: 1,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I hate to say this. The man is definitely an idiot (being polite) but our free speech protections extend to idiots too.

IMO the police acted wrongfully, and should have referred to the DA to see if there was anything prosecutable[emphasis mine], but not arrested on a bogus charge.

I don't see evidence of "reckless endangerment" and expect the charges to be dismissed.
"Calhoun County Sheriff's Office While we knew this would be controversial. We have the duty to investigate all complaints brought to us. Knowing the nature of this case we presented it to the District Attorney's Office for review. Which resulted in the issuance of a warrant. [emphasis mine] It's a tough job that has to be done."

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 05-23-14 at 10:41 AM.
mr_bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:34 AM   #7
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Really? Well I'm not an expert on the law, but I don't think "freedom of speech" includes inciting people to commit crimes... But maybe that's just me...
There's a difference between expressing an opinion, or even suggesting violence, and incitement. There's nothing here that in any way approaches incitement. If there were, half (idiom, not numbers) the people on this forum could charged the same way for their anti "cager" comments.

There's nothing here that comes anywhere near the threshold of incitement, and certainly no reckless endangerment (might have been if the video actually caught a close and dangerous pass). This is PC at it's worst, and meets the standards for false arrest in most states.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:42 AM   #8
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Bikes: A lot of old bikes and a few new ones
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
He made it pretty clear that he wanted to hurt a cyclist with his automobile and made it clear that it was only a matter of time before he actually did what he said he would do. You have intent and you have actions taken to help further that intent (he videotaped himself getting ready to do the action and posted his ideas all over the internet). A jury will decide whether this is evidence of the crime charged beyond a reasonable doubt. Nonetheless the first amendment is not a defense to saying you are going to do a crime and then taking some steps to further it.

From US legal definitions, http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/rec...endangerment/:

"Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions. The charge may occur in various contexts, such as, among others, domestic cases, car accidents, construction site accidents, testing sites, domestic/child abuse situations, and hospital abuse. State laws and penalties vary, so local laws should be consulted."
bikemig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:43 AM   #9
350htrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada, PG BC
Bikes: 27 speed oryx with over 37,000Km on it, 9,000Km with a BionX assist on it
Posts: 2,182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Well I couldn't watch the whole video because my PC stopped it saying there was some melware happening on that site but it sure seemed to me that he was telling people that it was OK to run cyclists off the road... Would it be OK to make a video basically saying lets get rid of the president? And not meaning voting him out...? That's "free speech" too...
350htrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:49 AM   #10
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Bikes: A lot of old bikes and a few new ones
Posts: 9,951
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Well I couldn't watch the whole video because my PC stopped it saying there was some melware happening on that site but it sure seemed to me that he was telling people that it was OK to run cyclists off the road... Would it be OK to make a video basically saying lets get rid of the president? And not meaning voting him out...? That's "free speech" too...
Well there are special laws dealing with the President as Ted Nugent found out, Secret Service To Visit Ted Nugent Over Potential Presidential Threat | Radar Online
bikemig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:49 AM   #11
FoulHooked
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
"Calhoun County Sheriff's Office While we knew this would be controversial. We have the duty to investigate all complaints brought to us. Knowing the nature of this case we presented it to the District Attorney's Office for review. Which resulted in the issuance of a warrant. [emphasis mine] It's a tough job that has to be done."

-mr. bill
^^^this

It was vetted; if the DA is willing to go after him, there must be something to it. There may be more to the videos too. There are other potential considerations than just what he says on the video; distracted driving (if unlawful there), passing on double solid (may not be exceptions in AL?). Reckless endangerment is not a free speech issue; it may have multiple definitions, but one is "a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person." I don't see how video commentary can possibly meet this threshold, so they must be pursuing it for other reasons.
FoulHooked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:49 AM   #12
02Giant 
Home School Valedictorian
 
02Giant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa
Bikes: 13 Orbea Orca Bronze
Posts: 1,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
The portion of the video where he intentionally speeds up as he is passing the two cyclist, has been edited to show only a very narrow view. There is very likely video evidence (not included in the link) that shows him making an unsafe pass.
__________________
We've got no fear, no doubt, all in balls out
02Giant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 10:59 AM   #13
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
....saying lets get rid of the president? And not meaning voting him out...? That's "free speech" too...
Actually it is. It wouldn't be if there was a clear and real threat, and acts in furtherance of the threat. It would also be illegal if he were to say it in front of an armed mob where the president were present.

The man in this video hates cyclists, which is his right. He's saying he'd like to run them off the road, but passed up that opportunity 3 times, so it's more of a wish than a statement of intent. He's sort of wishing someone else would do what he's clearly afraid to do, but if every time some died because someone wished them dead, the mother-in-law population of the USA would be decimated.

It might be different if the person were a passenger and was egging a driver on, "come on, there's no one around...let's get this guy here..." but that's not what's happening here.

Free spech is a meaningless concept it it only protects popular, PC speech, but not stuff like this.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:10 AM   #14
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
"Calhoun County Sheriff's Office While we knew this would be controversial. We have the duty to investigate all complaints brought to us. Knowing the nature of this case we presented it to the District Attorney's Office for review. Which resulted in the issuance of a warrant. [emphasis mine] It's a tough job that has to be done."

-mr. bill
You're right, I misread, and thought they arrested, then presented. So the cops were enforcing a warrant and so are blameless. OTOH I'd like to hear what the DA has to say on this. I expect the charges will be dropped (or maybe were based on the public apology) or will be dismissed by a judge.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:13 AM   #15
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulHooked View Post
^^^this

It was vetted; if the DA is willing to go after him, there must be something to it. .... I don't see how video commentary can possibly meet this threshold, so they must be pursuing it for other reasons.
DA bullying isn't unheard of. I don't know if this would have required a grand jury indictment or was within the DA's discretion, but DA bullying happens. Charge, arrest, extort a settlement of some kind (defending a charge is expensive), then quietly drop the charges, or accept a plea to something trivial.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:23 AM   #16
02Giant 
Home School Valedictorian
 
02Giant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa
Bikes: 13 Orbea Orca Bronze
Posts: 1,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Without seeing the entire video, it is impossible to say one way or the other if charges were warranted. IF the video shows him aggressively passing after the the other encounters, he is intentionally escalating his hostility toward the cyclist. How far does it have to go before action is warranted? In the times we live in, does the shooting have to start before someone intervenes?
__________________
We've got no fear, no doubt, all in balls out
02Giant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:26 AM   #17
RPK79
Senior Member
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Fuji Track Classic
Posts: 7,869
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 210 Post(s)
Well, we can't predict the future so, unfortunately, a crime has to be committed prior to someone being convicted of it.
RPK79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:33 AM   #18
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
Well, we can't predict the future so, unfortunately, a crime has to be committed prior to someone being convicted of it.
You may consider this unfortunate. I don't, because I don't like the alternative.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:37 AM   #19
RPK79
Senior Member
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Fuji Track Classic
Posts: 7,869
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 210 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
You may consider this unfortunate. I don't, because I don't like the alternative.
It was sarcasm. I agree with you.
RPK79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:37 AM   #20
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 02Giant View Post
....In the times we live in, does the shooting have to start before someone intervenes?
No, but there has to be clear evidence of intent and acts in furtherance. Talking about getting a ***** and going to a tower to kill folks is one thing. Getting the *****, loading it and heading up the stairs another.

The video is clearly expressing a wish -- or it could just be redneck boasting -- but it doesn't show any evidence of intent to fulfill the wish anytime in the near future.

BTW- talk about PC, I can't believe that the auto censor blocks the word for a deer hunting weapon.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:40 AM   #21
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
It was sarcasm. I agree with you.
Sorry, it's sometimes hard to tell here.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:41 AM   #22
mconlonx 
Nobody
 
mconlonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 7,096
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
IMO the police acted wrongfully, and should have referred to the DA to see if there was anything prosecutable, but not arrested on a bogus charge.
I know this has been further clarified, but don't the police arrest all the time on charges which don't stand up in court, sometimes don't even make it to court because the DA tosses it out?

It ain't right, but it happens all the time. "Tell it to the judge!"
__________________
I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
mconlonx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 11:44 AM   #23
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
I know this has been further clarified, but don't the police arrest all the time on charges which don't stand up in court, sometimes don't even make it to court because the DA tosses it out?

It ain't right, but it happens all the time. "Tell it to the judge!"
It may or may not be right depending on the details and police intent. If there's some basis for an arrest, it may be appropriate. However if it's just to annoy on intimidate, and the police arrest without a legitimate bases it harassment. Lots of cities and towns have found out how expensive police street justice can be.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 12:09 PM   #24
FenderTL5
Senior Member
 
FenderTL5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Nashville TN
Bikes: Trek 7.3FX, Diamondback Edgewood hybrid, KHS Montana
Posts: 767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
The video is clearly expressing a wish -- or it could just be redneck boasting -- but it doesn't show any evidence of intent to fulfill the wish anytime in the near future.
"Did'at scare you boys.." would imply he did something that was intended to scare/threat, wouldn't it?
FenderTL5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-14, 03:15 PM   #25
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Posts: 29,434
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderTL5 View Post
"Did'at scare you boys.." would imply he did something that was intended to scare/threat, wouldn't it?
I'd expect that a jury would insist on much better evidence than the implication of that phrase. Then entire video looks more like wish fantasy than any serious threat. But regardless of what it really is, the law is clear. If this is introduced in court, and the defense argues that it's simply the musings and wish fantasies of a frustrated bike hater, the jury has to accept that explanation unless there's compelling evidence otherwise.

I'm sure the DA knows the law and the odds of conviction, so this is either harassment based on political pressure (not unheard of) or the DA is holding some hole cards we don't know about.

BTW- it seems that the concept of free speech is under assault, an more people than ever believe that free speech protection should only apply to speech that doesn't offend. IMO- that's pointless, since non-offensive speech doesn't need protection. Given the number of examples of people being pilloried for utterances secretly recorded then broadcast, I think we need to remind people that we can't protect any speech unless we protect all speech. (yes, there are exceptions, so all doesn't mean all).
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:47 AM.